H50

I do agree with you here, but believe there is a enough of torque in the M5 which you can easily pass other cars at low rpm even with the P400.
As for the E55 its sure had plenty of power but the lack of driving feeling for ex the steering is too soft, also the suspension . After driving the M5 you feel the difference. The M5 is a true sport car, a nice wieghted steering, and you can change the damper setting from comfort to sport which has a big difference the ride becomes more harder and stiffer. Also on bends you can feel that there is no body roll as in the E55 which you feel that you gona loose the back any minute when you approach a bend with high speed.

As for LC i dont think its that hard on the clutch, it is made for such things and had been tested. The only thing you cant do LC repetitvely you have to wait for 10 minutes or drive for a distance to cool up the clutch.

zdkdeeier493

"Also, it doesn't have 507 horse power, but it actually has around 525 - 530 ponies, just a matter of time when all the dyno freaks with figure out. BMW decided to call it 507 horse power because it was a magic number or so to BMW."

WTF? Come on now, seriously...this guys gotta be kidding.

skratch77

He means the engine is underated.

krispykrme

why not, same with E55. We all know that E55 does not put 469 at crank, it's more like 490. So why can't BMW do the samething that MB is doing?

BTW, please look up what 507 means to BMW.

Unlike MB that down rate E55's output due to stupid marketing issue with S55/SL55. At least BMW picked 507 (which means something in BMW's history).

krispykrme

No, but BMW has no control or prevent you from killing your clutch with manual. But LC can be used to protect the a$$ that like to kill clutch.

wolverine

I don't doubt the BMW engine is underrated at 507. Given all the test results I've seen I would believe 520 - 530 without any trouble.

600 HP with just an ECU upgrade is ridiculous though. I don't doubt the engine is capable of 600 HP with some modifications. But unless there is something really unusual going on, the best I've seen with N/A engines for ECU upgrades by 'aftermarket tuners' is minimal.

Better breathing, altered timing, and an rpm increase could certainly give 600 HP - but getting more air into an N/A engine is not easy.

Erik

[QUOTE=wolverine]

600 HP with just an ECU upgrade is ridiculous though. I don't doubt the engine is capable of 600 HP with some modifications. But unless there is something really unusual going on, the best I've seen with N/A engines for ECU upgrades by 'aftermarket tuners' is minimal.

[/QUOT]

Agree, BUT what they could have done is to develop the car and run it in a 600 Hp version, either to test components to see if they can take the stress or just to see how it will run under such setup.

If either of this scenarios are correct, it is very easy for them to use a slitghly detuned version in the car. Remeber on this car only electronics change the Hp from 400 to 507 Hp. In theory they could have a lot of reserves still not used. Do I belive that, actually I have no idea.

Only a change in the VANOS departement has enourmous effect on the power.
I lost almost 100 Hp at max rpms when my VANSOS ****ed up in my M3. Everything was normal until 6000 rpms and then it was all over.

Already in Sept 2000 I was told about this engine and at that time it was running at 500 Hp, during the almost 5 years its not that hard to belive they have tested cofiguration at more than 500 Hp.

The main question is, will they ever put that into production, and what would the downside ( if any ) be on the userfriendlyness.






[QUOTE=wolverine]

Better breathing, altered timing, and an rpm increase could certainly give 600 HP - but getting more air into an N/A engine is not easy.

[/QUOT]

The engine need a looooot of air even today, thats why it has no foglights.

Erik

Agree, BUT what they could have done is to develop the car and run it in a 600 Hp version, either to test components to see if they can take the stress or just to see how it will run under such setup.

If either of this scenarios are correct, it is very easy for them to use a slitghly detuned version in the car. Remeber on this car only electronics change the Hp from 400 to 507 Hp. In theory they could have a lot of reserves still not used. Do I belive that, actually I have no idea.

Only a change in the VANOS departement has enourmous effect on the power.
I lost almost 100 Hp at max rpms when my VANSOS ****ed up in my M3. Everything was normal until 6000 rpms and then it was all over.

Already in Sept 2000 I was told about this engine and at that time it was running at 500 Hp, during the almost 5 years its not that hard to belive they have tested cofiguration at more than 500 Hp.

The main question is, will they ever put that into production, and what would the downside ( if any ) be on the userfriendlyness.






The engine need a looooot of air even today, thats why it has no foglights.

Marcus Frost

The M5 will need an engine tear down to make 600hp, which I would estimate to cost between $25-$40k including parts and reassmbly. This is assuming the drivetrain can handle the power and not need to be upgraded as well. You guys who think with boltons you can get 600hp out of normally aspirated 12.0:1 compression ratio V10 are living in absolute la-la-land. E55 owners take note, you will be able to quote this post of mine in 1 year and say "Marcus was right."

A bolt on 600hp E60 M5 is not even realistic enough to be considered a pipedream. It's complete fantasy. Do not argue this point using the E39 M5, E46 M3, hp/liter, nothing. Go learn about engines first.

I thank you for this comedic relief post of the day.

-m

Erik

Hi Marcus. I agree in principle 100%.

Its no way in hell a NA engine will gain close to 20% only by ECU upgrades, thats a no brainer, no point of discussing......
Your AMG55 engines could probably get 20% using ECU but not much more.

But what neither you or I know, is what that engine is build for in the first place. Thats only guessing. I still belive they could have developed this engine for more than 507-520 or whatever the real Hp it has. Since the engine already has a program to reduce the power, much like the old ZR-1 it is POSSIBLE that the system could be used to also increase from the poweroutput it has today.

Also I am sure that the M guys know excactly what AMG is planning and must be planning something to be prepared for than one.......

As I said, Its possible, but not very likly. I would guess we will see a 50 Hp increase within 2 yersa or so, or maybe in the M6 CSL,......... IF they decide to put it in production.....


WE can pick up this in a year and see if you was right....

wolverine

I agree 550 HP should be easy. But if you're starting at 530, it's not that much of a jump. Based on the road tests I've seen, it's hard to believe the engine is only putting out 507 HP. 520 - 530 HP at the crank is probably close to the actual output. I'll also bet the drivetrain losses are very small, maybe less than 10%. That would give you 470 - 480 HP at the wheels.

skratch77

theres 2 chips out or coming out very soon that get 550hp.One was an italian tuner and was over 550 so who knows what this engine is capable of.

And to the person that said BMW can't make an m power NA engine staying NA has no clue of what m engines can do.

delage has a NA kit that gets the e46 m3 to 420hpNA.Hartge has a kit thats gets 540hp NA on the old m5.Why is it so hard to beleive that this engine cant make 600hp staying NA.The m6 csl is supposed to have 550hp whan it comes out and thats the same engine.

add some bigger throttle bodies,track pipes and maybe cams and 600 should be doable.

Marcus Frost

skratch,

I have forgotten more about engine building than you know. I have argued with you in the past and all you do is post unsupported uninformed banter. Look at Erik's post - I know Erik favors BMW but he KNOWS you aren't getting 100hp from the S85 with "bigger throttle bodies, track pipes, and a set of cams" You are seriously on drugs to think that.

You need to re-read my post before you say anything. First off, these packages you describe deal with a completely different motors and have ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on this discussion. It would be the equivalent of saying "XXX company makes a 100hp upgrade package for my E55, it should work on my C32" It doesn't work. These packages you describe involve SIGNIFICANT modifcations to the engine and involve pulling the motor and replacing internals.

I've been around many, many Honda engines that put the BMW hp/l claims to shame. Motors that rev to 11krpm all day with super-exotic components and ridiculous amounts of money invested in them. The amount of ECU control and the limit to which the motor is already built to are the limiting factors. In addition, we'll have to see the E60 drivetrain with it's SMG can handle the extra power - fortunately with the 55 series we share a drivetrain with cars that have over 700tq - the E60 M5 does not have this luxury.

-m

skratch77

Hello...I said theres already 2 chips that claim more than 550.I also said that this engine could be detuned from the get go.Its fun to read how all you people laugh at people over at the m5board because someone said this engine might get 600hp.

IT WILL

what don't you get about it.If all other mpower engine broke well over 115hp/l whay can't this F1 type do it???

Think about that a little ....just sit back chill out and think.

eurobanh just put out a CHIP for the old m5 and get 30-35 rwhp.Thats with just a chip.

skratch77

Hello...I said theres already 2 chips that claim more than 550.I also said that this engine could be detuned from the get go.Its fun to read how all you people laugh at people over at the m5board because someone said this engine might get 600hp.

IT WILL

what don't you get about it.If all other mpower engine broke well over 115hp/l whay can't this F1 type do it???

Think about that a little ....just sit back chill out and think.

eurobanh just put out a CHIP for the old m5 and gets 30-35 rwhp.Thats with just a chip.

04E55 AMG

Thank you for educating those who have no clue what they say

skratch77

some more for you guys to think about.The enzo has 660 hp with its 6.2 NA v12.they just made an enzo fxx with over 800 NA hp with the same engine.I guess there the only ones other than honda that can break 120hp/l.

Mardeth

No one said anything about an 100hp increase, more like a 70hp increase. 20-30hp for full exhaust, 20-30hp for ECU and 10-15 for an intake. That should get us pretty close to 600 IF the car is underrated....

Total cost: ~5000$

EDIT: I started to think about it. If the ECU gets you to 600, then bolt-ons might get you to 650 and a bit more advanced tuning to 700?! I can dream right?

Erik

Maybe, maybe not, but that i NOT the topic here. The topic was the claim from a "dealer" that the engine could reach 600 Hp with ECU modification ONLY......,