Grumpy666

If those are the actual inside diameters, the cross-sectional area increase is 20%. Yet, the power increase is only about 5%. This means that there are other flow restrictions that must be addressed before the full potential of this mod can be realized.

stevebez

Grumpy666

Agreed. How much max gain do you expect this to realise if other flow restrictions (e.g. headers, filters) are addressed?

Rgds Steve.

jamusa

I believe that 5% is a respectable amount for a bigger t/b .Were expecting 20% increase in hp for the 20% increase in the t/b diameter?

stevebez

No - a 20% gain is impossible ... The gain will be limited to how much of a restriction the body was before. The gain will tail off as the body gets bigger and bigger as it becomes less and less of a bottle neck in the chain.

Also, just because flow capacity increases 20%, you will need the same air velocity to realise this. Inevitably velocity will drop as the TB gets bigger.

Rgds Steve.

Edit:
But it seems this is quite a primary restriction on the air flow of the motor, being on the inlet side. A TB and Header combo should be good for 10% i.e. ~50HP, improving overall breathing capacity of the engine. I would love to see a E55 produce >550hp plus without resorting to a bigger pulley.

vrus

But, do they refund you the core once they receive it from you?

WayneE

Are you concerned with spraying meth into the blower?

e55 baller

I am concerned for anything that may not be safe. I have done some research and the shop is doing more of it. They have experience with meth but anything you can provide would be very helpful.

Victor -- what are your thoughts on this?

vrus

I've talked about this a few times... Everyone has an opinion on what they think is the better solution. Basically, it all comes down to how your car is tuned.

IMHO, if you are going to spray 100% methanol you better have the proper lines, pumps, tanks, etc to handle it because it is EXTREMELY CORROSIVE. Also, if your ECU is not tuned for the methanol (high ignition advance, boost, etc) you will see ZERO power increase and the only benefit being that it provides a means for COOLING the intake charge.

Now, if we are looking at this as purely a COOLING system, then skip over the methanol completely and just inject straight water. Water has a higher latent heat of vaporization than methanol (this means that in terms of volume, 1 lb of water can absorb 4x more heat than 1 lb of methanol).

Also, for the water injection to work optimally, an A/F of 12.5:1 is an ideal place to be. Then, injecting a small amount of water will cause the creation of steam and the release of extra oxygen and acts as a coolant absorbing alot of the heat that is generated.. The extra oxgen allows for a more complete burn of the combustion chamber.

I will experiment first with the 100% water injection and see how it affects A/F and IAT. Then, I will try a 50/50 mix of water and meth and see what the differences are.

If I was going to use Methanol, I wouldn't spray it into the blower for fear of corroding the internals of the blower. I would stick with POST blower injection. If I was using water, I would experiment with both PRE & POST blower injection since water will probably instantly vapourize before it hits the blades of the supercharger anyways.

Of course, going through the process is the only way to know for sure...

SS3E55

Guys fasinating thread - any news on that part number - I have people in Germany that could get some pdq if I had a number (or that VIN you mentioned).
The V12TT TB is just more than I want to do right now (with the entire system needing plumbing) but a SL55 early big body TB might be something within reach . I have some means of making an adaptor via CNC machine (and therefore repeatable) if I can see what is needed to adapt this - would it be that straight forward (just an adaptor?)

Anxious for more data....soon as you can!

thanks!

Grumpy666

Injecting water before the S/C will not be as effective as injecting after the S/C. The purpose of water injection is to absorb heat. The temperature of the air stream prior to the blower is not much higher than ambient. Although the injection will lower the temperature of the air, the effect will be minimal. Plus, you run the risk of the vapor condensing before the air reaches the blower screws. Injecting after the blower will provide a greater overall cooling effect to the air that reaches the intake manifolds. But, if you can control the variables effectively, it would be interesting to see the pre/post delta.

Grumpy666

No - and I did not mean to imply this. It was merely an observation that the 80mm TB probably flows more air than the engine can handle. Without reworking the exhaust port and/or more cam timing, you won't gain the full benefit of the mod.

GTA23109a

I know it's apples to oranges, BUT . . . A lot of the turbo diesel guys (myself included) are spraying a 50/50 water/meth mix OR water/alky mix, post IC directly into the intake manifold. A lot of us run 30+psi though so the volumes we use wouldn't relate. Mixing the alky. or meth. with water significantly reduces it's corrosive nature, but it's still an issue with aluminum fittings, etc. After it's injected, it's almost instantly transformed into vapor and no one (at least that I've heard of) has had corrosion issues at any point past injection. As someone else said previously, unless you have the timing to take advantage of the alky/meth you won't see much gain other than perhaps less timing retard. The same result can be had by running a little race gas and that doesn't require a seperate tank and injection system. Also, tuning an alky/meth system is a PITA. Once that stuff hits the motor, your O2s, EGTs and Air/Fuel gets all wacky. You have to be able to plot timing retard vs. HP to see if you're making any progress.

If, after all that, you're still set on an alky/meth system, Snow Performance and SuperDiesel Performance both make very high quality products.

vrus

I agree with what you are saying.. But, by injecting a small amount of water PRE blower it should provide an air density increase and therefore a small boost increase. The steam will also help clean the entire intake tract. I will have 3 nozzles in total: 1 on the Y-pipe before the TB, 1 on each intake manifold.

I am confident that 90% of the benefits will be seen by injecting POST blower, but, the IAT sensor needs to be relocated in order to take advantage of this. Right now the IAT sensor is located at the bottom rear of the engine and is mounted on the intercooler outlet. That sensor needs to be moved up higher and placed on the intake manifold and then the water jets can be plumbed where the IAT sensor used to be.

I will be experimenting with those 3 jets in different combinations so we'll see what happens.

Grumpy666

You're displacing the air in the intake tract with non-combustible water vapor. Even if the density increases, less air is present in each rotation of the S/C screws. Any increase in boost is probably not producing more power, but is producing more heat. Kind of a conundrum, huh?

There is no steam in the intake tract, only water vapor. The water vapor flashes to steam when it enters the combustion chamber and is exposed to the high temperature there.

WayneE

That's the way I'm spraying it in my C5, it's post-blower and post-IC. On the E55K, you will be spraying water, water/meth or meth directly into the blower inlet. I haven't disassembled one of our blowers, so I can't say if that's a bad thing, but I wouldn't be comfortable doing it unless I saw the guts of our blowers.

Also, as you mentioned, it will take a bunch of dyno/track time to dial in the boost/timing/fuel. Just adding some type of chemical intercooling (unless it's N2O ) isn't going to do anything for you. Can the tuners like Kleeman, Renntech, Evo, etc, make custom maps for you guys spraying alky/meth/water?

SLcharger

If you want to run methanol on you engines, please take notice that during time, methanol will get into the crankcase and mix up with the oil. Normal engine oil is not capebul of consuming the methanol, so it will stay as liquid in the pan, vapor when engine gets hot, and cause corrosion. Also there is danger that the oilpump will pick up liquid methanol, when starting up engine, and that stuff does no good to the bearings. If you want too exxessive experiment with methanol, i would recomend that you change oil to a methanol oil, that is capebul of emulgate with methanol. these oils are sold by, Penzzoil, Kendal, Quaker State etc.

I have done tractor pulling with methanol, and i can only agree that this stuff is highly corrosive, especially to aluminum. It will corrode blower, intake manifold, ports in heads, etc. Mixed up with water it is less corrosive, but farr from neutral.

When spraying water into the manifold, i would recomend that it is done in the chamber under the blower. Use atomizer nozzels, ( Spraying Systems Co. Illinois ) and a min pressure of 25 bar ( 375 Psi ) to optain a perfect spray. Amount of water is adjusted by pressure and size of nozzels.

Please take notice that amount of water must be equal with power, to optain max eff. This is best attcived by fitting the pump to the motor, so it follows the engine Rpm. This will assure that the amount of water is propotional with the engine revs. Also the system must be equiped with a pressure sensitive valve that will regulate water pressure as function of blower pressure.

Just a few hints from tractor pulling.

Those systems you are talking about, how do they work ?

WayneE

SLCharger, I think that comparing meth in a tractor pull to using it in a regular street or street/strip car isn't valid. The meth/alky/water doesn't end up in the oil pan.

The systems I have used/seen are rpm/boost based. The newer digital setups are nice because you can tune them using your laptop. Plot the spray you want based on rpm/boost and you're good to go.

rflow306

Victor I wish you the best of luck with your project. From what I've seen the advantages of water/meth injection only come from aggressive map tuning. To the point of severe detonation if the pump or system were to fail. By just injecting it pre or post blower the gains will be minimal from what I have seen . Hopefully you can prove me wrong.

On a diesel engine the gains are better especially for egt reduction on a heavilly fueled truck.

Besides the fact that it's alot easier to fill and maintain than nos, the gains will never be equal. But hey I'm very biased.

SLcharger

Thanks for the reply.

All though i dont totaly agree with you, ( i have seen to many things happen through the years ) i am curius to find out more about those new systems you mentioned. Is there an web adress you can give me ?

vrus

TB IS HERE... TB IS HERE!!!

Will be in my hands hopefully by Monday night and I will take some pics.

GTA23109a

WayneE: I'm sure an aftermarket tuner *could* write a program for a water/meth application. The question is whether or not they *would*.

SLcharger: I've never used the Snow Performance stuff, but the blower mustang / turbo buick crowd raves about them. The diesel guys seem to stick with the SD stuff.

FYI: there's a used Snow Performance alky/meth injection system on the Diesel Place forum if anybody's looking. www.dieselplace.com/forum