*** 80mm AMG Throttle Body ***
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From: Houston, TX
I would predict that the dyno will be somewhat unimpressive. I doubt the TB is going to be the bottleneck in our motors. Was there any consideration as to having the stock TB bored out 3-5mm? That would cost about $250 at most machine shops
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2004 E55
Victor can give a good explanation on this. Some of us have explored that in depth. It can only happen on 2003 TBs that are bolted together. Later years like mine are epoxied together. Been there done that. To get an old TB bore it and have the SC bored doesn't make sense. Might as well put the 80 on. The max you can bore is 2mm.
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From: London, UK
No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, GLE 400d, R107 280SL, Golf Polo
Interesting what you say eclou ... I figure you may get better results by porting the heads and gas flowing them to improve flow efficiency of the air which is under pressure ... this is more critical than the air flow through the TB which is not under massive pressure. Vacuum drop over the TB face will be interesting to note with the new TB vs stock.
I think there will be gains but I am not sure if they will be significant enough to stand out beyond what one could expect given the different conditions at the times of testing ...
Kleemann say their TB is worth 20-30 hp ... it must help somewhere along the line... but the main restriction in these motors are the heads in my opinion, and think victor is going to tackle these next. As the efficiency improves down the line the more this bigger TB will help things ...
Victor - I think this mod will stand you in good stead on your road to 700hp... and I doubt you get there without it.
I think there will be gains but I am not sure if they will be significant enough to stand out beyond what one could expect given the different conditions at the times of testing ...
Kleemann say their TB is worth 20-30 hp ... it must help somewhere along the line... but the main restriction in these motors are the heads in my opinion, and think victor is going to tackle these next. As the efficiency improves down the line the more this bigger TB will help things ...
Victor - I think this mod will stand you in good stead on your road to 700hp... and I doubt you get there without it.
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From: Australia
03 E55 AMG
Big Hole
With the big pulley it must suck harder.... So wouldn't a larger hole help?
Especially up top where all the huffin and puffin is happening?
Bigger pulley, Bigger Hole
Perhaps pushing the valves deeper would be the next logical step?
Especially up top where all the huffin and puffin is happening?
Bigger pulley, Bigger Hole
Perhaps pushing the valves deeper would be the next logical step?
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
You havent seen some of the threads where this was discussed before.. Vadim & I were going through this whole procedure with the stock TB months ago.
Stock is 74mm.. Max opening is 76mm once bored.. Wall thickness is just not there to go bigger.
2003 and earlier cars had bolted TB so you could take them apart and get them bored out. late 2003 and on had 1 piece epoxied TB so you couldnt dismantle them to get them bored out. So, most people will have problems doing this...
ACtually, I just sold my stock TB to BENZGal because she ran into this very problem. Her car is apart at Evosport right now and she cant get the TB ported because she discovered her's is epoxied so I agreed to sell her my stock one to help her out (Its just collecting dust in my garage anyways).
Now, as for performance, Vadim measured 30in of vacuum on the TB at WOT using stock TB. Using 76mm ported TB he saw that drop in half and he picked up 18rwhp 15rwtq just with the 76mm ported TB.
Kleemann claims their 80mm TB generates 25 - 30 rwhp.. I tend to believe this information since it pretty well comes from 2 different sources.
I am not saying that I want 25rwhp on the dyno but it would be nice if I got it... Also, the car pulls SO MUCH harder on the top end that it has to have improved.
Its been so damn hot here in Toronto that I cant find a decent day to get the dyno done.. Today its 32C right now.. If it cools off a bit in the afternoon I'll do a pull tonight otherwise I'll hope for tomorrow.
Stock is 74mm.. Max opening is 76mm once bored.. Wall thickness is just not there to go bigger.
2003 and earlier cars had bolted TB so you could take them apart and get them bored out. late 2003 and on had 1 piece epoxied TB so you couldnt dismantle them to get them bored out. So, most people will have problems doing this...
ACtually, I just sold my stock TB to BENZGal because she ran into this very problem. Her car is apart at Evosport right now and she cant get the TB ported because she discovered her's is epoxied so I agreed to sell her my stock one to help her out (Its just collecting dust in my garage anyways).
Now, as for performance, Vadim measured 30in of vacuum on the TB at WOT using stock TB. Using 76mm ported TB he saw that drop in half and he picked up 18rwhp 15rwtq just with the 76mm ported TB.
Kleemann claims their 80mm TB generates 25 - 30 rwhp.. I tend to believe this information since it pretty well comes from 2 different sources.
I am not saying that I want 25rwhp on the dyno but it would be nice if I got it... Also, the car pulls SO MUCH harder on the top end that it has to have improved.
Its been so damn hot here in Toronto that I cant find a decent day to get the dyno done.. Today its 32C right now.. If it cools off a bit in the afternoon I'll do a pull tonight otherwise I'll hope for tomorrow.
Originally Posted by eclou
I would predict that the dyno will be somewhat unimpressive. I doubt the TB is going to be the bottleneck in our motors. Was there any consideration as to having the stock TB bored out 3-5mm? That would cost about $250 at most machine shops
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Ohh.. 1 other thing I forgot to mention..
If you are going to do it properly, you have to bore the supercharger inlet to match it to the outlet of the TB. To do that properly you have to re/re the blower and TB. That is an 8 - 9 hr job so its not as simple as $250 for the porting. Vadim was able to port the inlet while on the car but that is a difficult job using a small hand grinder and PRAYING to god that you dont accidentally let some of the metal shavings fall into the block or supercharger.
Most of the cost is the re/re and the labour. Once you've sunk in that much dough, its worthwhile to get a new 80mm TB and supercharger inlet for $2200 and sell off your stock inlet and TB and recoup some of the money.
If you are going to do it properly, you have to bore the supercharger inlet to match it to the outlet of the TB. To do that properly you have to re/re the blower and TB. That is an 8 - 9 hr job so its not as simple as $250 for the porting. Vadim was able to port the inlet while on the car but that is a difficult job using a small hand grinder and PRAYING to god that you dont accidentally let some of the metal shavings fall into the block or supercharger.
Most of the cost is the re/re and the labour. Once you've sunk in that much dough, its worthwhile to get a new 80mm TB and supercharger inlet for $2200 and sell off your stock inlet and TB and recoup some of the money.
Originally Posted by eclou
I would predict that the dyno will be somewhat unimpressive. I doubt the TB is going to be the bottleneck in our motors. Was there any consideration as to having the stock TB bored out 3-5mm? That would cost about $250 at most machine shops
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Originally Posted by vrus
I am not saying that I want 25rwhp on the dyno but it would be nice if I got it... Also, the car pulls SO MUCH harder on the top end that it has to have improved.
Its been so damn hot here in Toronto that I cant find a decent day to get the dyno done.. Today its 32C right now.. If it cools off a bit in the afternoon I'll do a pull tonight otherwise I'll hope for tomorrow.
Its been so damn hot here in Toronto that I cant find a decent day to get the dyno done.. Today its 32C right now.. If it cools off a bit in the afternoon I'll do a pull tonight otherwise I'll hope for tomorrow.
If the stock TB is truly a restriction in your modded engine, installing a larger one would allow more air flow to the S/C, which should increase the boost level at upper RPM, WOT conditions. But since you added the idler pulley, it's going to be difficult to determine which mod is causing any boost improvements. See the dilema?
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Yeah... I know.. I wish the situation was different.. I couldnt control what problems occurred when..
Ontop of that, I am now running stock exhaust again with all 4 cats in place. The last pull I did I couldnt get peak power because of slippage, but that was done with stock exhaust also.. That's the only thing I can compare against. That was the 435rwhp 545rwtq pull I did.. 435rwhp is where it stopped because at 4,000RPM A/F dived down below 10:1.
Ahh well..
Ontop of that, I am now running stock exhaust again with all 4 cats in place. The last pull I did I couldnt get peak power because of slippage, but that was done with stock exhaust also.. That's the only thing I can compare against. That was the 435rwhp 545rwtq pull I did.. 435rwhp is where it stopped because at 4,000RPM A/F dived down below 10:1.
Ahh well..
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
Interpreting your dyno results is going to be problematic. In addition to the TB, you also installed the Evo pulley kit, which includes the new idler. If this results in better/more contact to the S/C pulley, you could see HP improvements through higher boost, independent of the TB.
If the stock TB is truly a restriction in your modded engine, installing a larger one would allow more air flow to the S/C, which should increase the boost level at upper RPM, WOT conditions. But since you added the idler pulley, it's going to be difficult to determine which mod is causing any boost improvements. See the dilema?
If the stock TB is truly a restriction in your modded engine, installing a larger one would allow more air flow to the S/C, which should increase the boost level at upper RPM, WOT conditions. But since you added the idler pulley, it's going to be difficult to determine which mod is causing any boost improvements. See the dilema?
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Originally Posted by vrus
Ontop of that, I am now running stock exhaust again with all 4 cats in place. The last pull I did I couldnt get peak power because of slippage, but that was done with stock exhaust also.. That's the only thing I can compare against. That was the 435rwhp 545rwtq pull I did.. 435rwhp is where it stopped because at 4,000RPM A/F dived down below 10:1.
BTW - the picture of your stock exhaust system you posted in a previous thread shows only two cats. Where are the other two you mentioned above?
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
There's 4.. The first 2 are the big canisters at the very top of the pipe near to where it connects to the headers.
The secondaries are those 2 smaller canisters located a few feet behind just where the pips start to bend and twist.
You are probably thinking they are resonators, but they are in fact cats. The factory resonator was mounted closer to the rear of the car just before the pipes mate up to the muffler sections.
The secondaries are those 2 smaller canisters located a few feet behind just where the pips start to bend and twist.
You are probably thinking they are resonators, but they are in fact cats. The factory resonator was mounted closer to the rear of the car just before the pipes mate up to the muffler sections.
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
It would probably be more valid to compare it to your best dyno - the one listed in your signature. The primary difference would be the factory cats vs. the high-flow cats. Any flow difference there might be offset by the better belt contact from the idler. Is it possible to loosen the new idler so that the belt flops as before?
BTW - the picture of your stock exhaust system you posted in a previous thread shows only two cats. Where are the other two you mentioned above?
BTW - the picture of your stock exhaust system you posted in a previous thread shows only two cats. Where are the other two you mentioned above?
Photo
Thread Starter
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Will do! Promise..
The camera is already in my car because I was going to use it today. When I get home and pull into the garage, I'll try to get a decent pic.. (No smart *** remarks about how dirty the engine is ... OR ELSE)
The camera is already in my car because I was going to use it today. When I get home and pull into the garage, I'll try to get a decent pic.. (No smart *** remarks about how dirty the engine is ... OR ELSE)
Originally Posted by Finny
Hi Victor... When you get 5, can you please take a quick photo of the new ideler setup as I'm hanging to see it mate.
Cheers
Cheers
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Houston, TX
If the bored TB picked up 18rwhp for roughly $250 and the 80mm setup will get you another 7-12 rwhp for 10x the $$$ plus labor, I would think that you have found the point of diminishing returns.
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From: Southern California
S600TT, R350
If the bored TB picked up 18rwhp for roughly $250 and the 80mm setup will get you another 7-12 rwhp for 10x the $$$ plus labor, I would think that you have found the point of diminishing returns.
That means that they can not be disassembled in order to be machined.
This is why 80 mm TB is the only soultion at this time.
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Originally Posted by eclou
If the bored TB picked up 18rwhp for roughly $250 and the 80mm setup will get you another 7-12 rwhp for 10x the $$$ plus labor, I would think that you have found the point of diminishing returns.
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From: school west coast-Summer Internships Va and Bmore
E55 (for sale if the right offer comes along)...too many others to list
Originally Posted by vrus
You havent seen some of the threads where this was discussed before.. Vadim & I were going through this whole procedure with the stock TB months ago.
Stock is 74mm.. Max opening is 76mm once bored.. Wall thickness is just not there to go bigger.
2003 and earlier cars had bolted TB so you could take them apart and get them bored out. late 2003 and on had 1 piece epoxied TB so you couldnt dismantle them to get them bored out. So, most people will have problems doing this...
ACtually, I just sold my stock TB to BENZGal because she ran into this very problem. Her car is apart at Evosport right now and she cant get the TB ported because she discovered her's is epoxied so I agreed to sell her my stock one to help her out (Its just collecting dust in my garage anyways).
Now, as for performance, Vadim measured 30in of vacuum on the TB at WOT using stock TB. Using 76mm ported TB he saw that drop in half and he picked up 18rwhp 15rwtq just with the 76mm ported TB.
Kleemann claims their 80mm TB generates 25 - 30 rwhp.. I tend to believe this information since it pretty well comes from 2 different sources.
I am not saying that I want 25rwhp on the dyno but it would be nice if I got it... Also, the car pulls SO MUCH harder on the top end that it has to have improved.
Its been so damn hot here in Toronto that I cant find a decent day to get the dyno done.. Today its 32C right now.. If it cools off a bit in the afternoon I'll do a pull tonight otherwise I'll hope for tomorrow.
Stock is 74mm.. Max opening is 76mm once bored.. Wall thickness is just not there to go bigger.
2003 and earlier cars had bolted TB so you could take them apart and get them bored out. late 2003 and on had 1 piece epoxied TB so you couldnt dismantle them to get them bored out. So, most people will have problems doing this...
ACtually, I just sold my stock TB to BENZGal because she ran into this very problem. Her car is apart at Evosport right now and she cant get the TB ported because she discovered her's is epoxied so I agreed to sell her my stock one to help her out (Its just collecting dust in my garage anyways).
Now, as for performance, Vadim measured 30in of vacuum on the TB at WOT using stock TB. Using 76mm ported TB he saw that drop in half and he picked up 18rwhp 15rwtq just with the 76mm ported TB.
Kleemann claims their 80mm TB generates 25 - 30 rwhp.. I tend to believe this information since it pretty well comes from 2 different sources.
I am not saying that I want 25rwhp on the dyno but it would be nice if I got it... Also, the car pulls SO MUCH harder on the top end that it has to have improved.
Its been so damn hot here in Toronto that I cant find a decent day to get the dyno done.. Today its 32C right now.. If it cools off a bit in the afternoon I'll do a pull tonight otherwise I'll hope for tomorrow.
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From: Florida
Don't have a Mercedes right now...
One thing I don't understand about these kind of mods is that they imply that AMG did not fully optimize this engine! Why would they not do that? This could have place them a step ahead of the fierse competition with the M5's? Do you think this mod would cause them to fail any of the specs they have to meet such as emissions etc? Or maybe it's political i.e. they might want to maintain a certain HP gap between their V12's?
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From: London, UK
No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, GLE 400d, R107 280SL, Golf Polo
Originally Posted by kchristos
One thing I don't understand about these kind of mods is that they imply that AMG did not fully optimize this engine! Why would they not do that? This could have place them a step ahead of the fierse competition with the M5's? Do you think this mod would cause them to fail any of the specs they have to meet such as emissions etc? Or maybe it's political i.e. they might want to maintain a certain HP gap between their V12's?
The E55 could have had +600Hp if they wanted from this motor and would have eaten - well anything ... I guess they thought there was no real market for it given the product and its implied higher cost. They also have to keep the cost close to the competition too ... also think they like raising teh bar by small increments rather than big steps - allows them to sell more product ... a bit like PC processors...!!!
This might all change of course with the AMG announcing more bespoke approach, and the now well rumoured 6.2TT, which hopefully will make its way into the W212. If they ever announce that - I will jump to put my name down.
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From: Houston, TX
Originally Posted by Grumpy666
This depends on the engine. If the 18 HP increase came from a stock engine, then you are correct for a stock engine. If the engine is modded with a pulley, headers, free-flowing exhaust, cams, port & polish, or any other mod that increases airflow, then you are incorrect. An engine with these mods could potentially see a 50 HP increase with the 80mm TB.
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From: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Only one way to find out......cover me boys, I'm goin in!!! (mixed gunfire and airwrench sound effects)
We already have my dyno of 476 adjusted rwhp....let's she what she does after TB.
If it's 485, then it's egg all over our faces, BUT if it's 506, wellllll thennnnnn...for me worth ever penny as I go for heads or Airbox, then cams in that order
We already have my dyno of 476 adjusted rwhp....let's she what she does after TB.
If it's 485, then it's egg all over our faces, BUT if it's 506, wellllll thennnnnn...for me worth ever penny as I go for heads or Airbox, then cams in that order
