Very disappointed with Kleemann mods. (Long)
07-05-2006, 05:51 PM
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SL55, ML500, GT3 RS, 997C2S
My SL55 just came back to me last Friday. The before dyno was spot on at 492 hp and the stock torque was higher than MB spec, 540+. Kleeman claims the after hp to be 593, I dynoed at 585. Close enough that fuel or temp could have made the difference. Kleeman claims 616 torque after and I ended up with close to 630 ft/lbs. Before and after dynos really are necessary but it is too late for that. Its the installation or the base car. I wish I could be of more help. Good luck.
07-05-2006, 07:41 PM
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2006 CLS55 K4
Originally Posted by BrandonG
Now I must reply to this ongoing saga.
If I didnt care about you and your car, or much less my own company, I wouldnt have flown to Chicago to look at your car, bring my DAS machine and flash programmer, writen numerous ECU files, make special pulleys in Denmark, talk with your dealer etc etc. I have gone the distance for you and your car, and will continue to do so.
Brandon, I agree that for the first two months you did take a vested interest in this situation, and I appreciate that. You did what you had to at the time to try and make the customer happy. This shows your level of customer service.
The reason I talk directly to your dealer is because I asked for that line of communication since they are the ones trying to facilitate getting to the bottom of any possible OE issues with your car. Why bog you down with MB details you may or may not understand (Example: DAS process, test proceedure, etc).
I was the one that had to go to my dealer to get them to talk to you directly, so I didn't have to relay everything that you told me to them. This seemed to work out ok for both of us, and I don't have any issues with them talking to you.
Lets set afew things straight here as well in fairness to all.
Lets set a few more things straight here in fairness to all.
By the time your dealer or you called me about a pre-tune dyno the car was nearly completed, a little late to do a baseline test. What I said was that it shouldnt matter too much because these cars all typically test at or near identical numbers. Ideally one always does a baseline test, in this case it was too late and suggesting to take it all apart to do one seemed a little out of bounds.I called you 1 day prior to taking the car in for the K4 package. Although time would have been tight, I still could have had the car dynoed before anything was ever put on. But, like you said, "it shouldnt matter too much because these cars all typically test at or near identical numbers". The exact words you told me on the phone were, it is not neccessary. Because of this reccomendation we did not get the car dynoed before the parts were installed.
As I have always told you and your father, the items we supply are very straight forward. Meaning headers are headers, yours are like countless others in the field, your original boost pulley from us is identical to 100's sold, the camshafts are identical spec, throttle body and even your ECU software is the same as other cars which ar making far more power. If the combination of these parts, which has made more power on other cars does not make the power on your car what is the conclusion you draw?
I don't know what the reasoning behind the loss of power is either, that's not my job to know. Like others have said, being conservative on the stock numbers, we have only picked up a little under 100hp (claimed 640-stock 469=gain 171hp). We are at ~565hp this is far short of the 640hp that you claim.
When you offered to send the car to Colorado what I said is at that time it did not make sense to do that as i was willing to travel to examine the car in the environment it is used in, rather than Colorado Springs. Its far faster for me to fly to Chicago than trucking your car, the hope at the time was that it was something obvious or known that was the issue and it could be fixed on site. That didnt pan out, hence the special pulley to determine what is going on with your CLS.
I offered to send the car to Colorado after you examined it here in Illinois, not before you came out here. This is when you determined that the problem was either mechanical or computer related and you were going to have a new pulley made as a solution. The pulley took over 10 weeks to get and the car still won't make over 457rwhp.
The other point I have tried to make through your dealer and from me directly is at what point is it my responsibility to diagnose and fix your car when every item on it that we have provided is as it should be and this exact combi of parts and software makes great power on other cars? I can understand you feel slighted or disapointed about the result.
Disappointed is an understatement. If I was just disappointed, then I would not have started a topic on this issue. I do not feel that it is ever your responsability to diagnose problems with my car unless the problem is not making your advertised HP. This is when I think that it is your responsability. I purschased this K4 package through a very experienced authorized Kleemann dealer and had everything installed per your instructions, but I am not getting even close to the power numbers that you claim. This is why I am still stuck coming back to you on the low hp problem.
In any case, back to the matter at hand.
I am, and always have been, willing to do as much as possible to make you a happy camper. I cannot go to Illinois for an undetermined amount of time in an attempt to exorcize your car. I am satisfied that the hardware and software we have supplied you is withpout defect as it performs on other vehicles. That said you are free to have the car trucked to Colorado at your expense and we will go through the entire car front to back and return a car that makes more power.
So you can make more power out of the car, but only at your shop? If I would have known that, I would have sent it back to you after your visit here in March, but you said at that time it wouldn't help anything based on your findings here. If you will guarantee 640hp (~520rwhp) as advertised, I will have the car sent out to you right away. The bottom line is, I am only asking for the power I paid for! Please let me know asap when I should ship the car to you, and how long will it take you to make more power?.
If I didnt care about you and your car, or much less my own company, I wouldnt have flown to Chicago to look at your car, bring my DAS machine and flash programmer, writen numerous ECU files, make special pulleys in Denmark, talk with your dealer etc etc. I have gone the distance for you and your car, and will continue to do so.
Brandon, I agree that for the first two months you did take a vested interest in this situation, and I appreciate that. You did what you had to at the time to try and make the customer happy. This shows your level of customer service.
The reason I talk directly to your dealer is because I asked for that line of communication since they are the ones trying to facilitate getting to the bottom of any possible OE issues with your car. Why bog you down with MB details you may or may not understand (Example: DAS process, test proceedure, etc).
I was the one that had to go to my dealer to get them to talk to you directly, so I didn't have to relay everything that you told me to them. This seemed to work out ok for both of us, and I don't have any issues with them talking to you.
Lets set afew things straight here as well in fairness to all.
Lets set a few more things straight here in fairness to all.
By the time your dealer or you called me about a pre-tune dyno the car was nearly completed, a little late to do a baseline test. What I said was that it shouldnt matter too much because these cars all typically test at or near identical numbers. Ideally one always does a baseline test, in this case it was too late and suggesting to take it all apart to do one seemed a little out of bounds.I called you 1 day prior to taking the car in for the K4 package. Although time would have been tight, I still could have had the car dynoed before anything was ever put on. But, like you said, "it shouldnt matter too much because these cars all typically test at or near identical numbers". The exact words you told me on the phone were, it is not neccessary. Because of this reccomendation we did not get the car dynoed before the parts were installed.
As I have always told you and your father, the items we supply are very straight forward. Meaning headers are headers, yours are like countless others in the field, your original boost pulley from us is identical to 100's sold, the camshafts are identical spec, throttle body and even your ECU software is the same as other cars which ar making far more power. If the combination of these parts, which has made more power on other cars does not make the power on your car what is the conclusion you draw?
I don't know what the reasoning behind the loss of power is either, that's not my job to know. Like others have said, being conservative on the stock numbers, we have only picked up a little under 100hp (claimed 640-stock 469=gain 171hp). We are at ~565hp this is far short of the 640hp that you claim.
When you offered to send the car to Colorado what I said is at that time it did not make sense to do that as i was willing to travel to examine the car in the environment it is used in, rather than Colorado Springs. Its far faster for me to fly to Chicago than trucking your car, the hope at the time was that it was something obvious or known that was the issue and it could be fixed on site. That didnt pan out, hence the special pulley to determine what is going on with your CLS.
I offered to send the car to Colorado after you examined it here in Illinois, not before you came out here. This is when you determined that the problem was either mechanical or computer related and you were going to have a new pulley made as a solution. The pulley took over 10 weeks to get and the car still won't make over 457rwhp.
The other point I have tried to make through your dealer and from me directly is at what point is it my responsibility to diagnose and fix your car when every item on it that we have provided is as it should be and this exact combi of parts and software makes great power on other cars? I can understand you feel slighted or disapointed about the result.
Disappointed is an understatement. If I was just disappointed, then I would not have started a topic on this issue. I do not feel that it is ever your responsability to diagnose problems with my car unless the problem is not making your advertised HP. This is when I think that it is your responsability. I purschased this K4 package through a very experienced authorized Kleemann dealer and had everything installed per your instructions, but I am not getting even close to the power numbers that you claim. This is why I am still stuck coming back to you on the low hp problem.
In any case, back to the matter at hand.
I am, and always have been, willing to do as much as possible to make you a happy camper. I cannot go to Illinois for an undetermined amount of time in an attempt to exorcize your car. I am satisfied that the hardware and software we have supplied you is withpout defect as it performs on other vehicles. That said you are free to have the car trucked to Colorado at your expense and we will go through the entire car front to back and return a car that makes more power.
So you can make more power out of the car, but only at your shop? If I would have known that, I would have sent it back to you after your visit here in March, but you said at that time it wouldn't help anything based on your findings here. If you will guarantee 640hp (~520rwhp) as advertised, I will have the car sent out to you right away. The bottom line is, I am only asking for the power I paid for! Please let me know asap when I should ship the car to you, and how long will it take you to make more power?.
07-05-2006, 08:23 PM
#53
Originally Posted by Stiff1
1
Originally Posted by Stiff1
1
................I hope EVERYONE IN THE WORLD interested in performance modification reads this thread. You can see that both customer and tuner are basically correct. Neither one is trying to cheat the other. But therein lies the problem...........you don't have to have bad customer or a bad tuner/vendor for there to be a problem. Even with a reputable company, you can still have problems.
..........once and for all..........ADVERTISED HP AND TORQUE FIGURES BY ALL TUNERS ARE BOGUS. IT IS ALL ADVERTISING. IT IS LIKE THE AD YOU SEE ON TV FOR ERECTILE DYSFUNCTION. THE DRUG KINDA WORKS BUT MOST DEFINITELY NOT THE WAY IT IS POTRAYED ON THE AD. ALL TUNERS EMBELISH ...........NOT JUST KLEEMANN, BUT ALL TUNERS INCLUDING RENNTECH, HENNESSEY, BRABUS......WELL AT BRABUS THEY DON'T EVEN BOTHER TO EVER SHOW ANY DYNO'S OR TIMESLIPS.
...........so I think it is great that Brandon has offered that you ship your car to Colorado so that they can wrestle some more HP out of it. Your requirent that you be guaranteed 520RWHP is completely unreasonable, just as Kleemann's claim of gazilion HP is unreasonable. Nobody else has made 520RWHp except for a single freak CLS55 K4. Yes this means that like other tuners, Kleemann's claim of 520RWHP is bogus. Lets call a spade a spade. You WILL NOT get 520RWHP, period, end of story. This does not mean that Kleemann is a bad company..........they are just advertising. You walk into a store and it says "sale, upto 50% off"........except only one item in the entire store is 50% off and it was already sold.
..........I have been posting this every chance I get........lets stop once and for all talking about advertised HP claims from tuners. It is like a guy who can't get it up expecting a 4 hour erection from his Cialis tablet because the TV ad said so. We are intelligent people, yet I see people flinging numbers left and right from MKB, Kleemann, Renntech etc. without any substantiation. How many Dynographs with 520RWHP have you ever seen on AMG V8K car? I know of only two in existence. You think if there were more of them, the marketting dept of these tuners will not smear it all over the web so that prospective customers will see them?
..........Your part as a customer. YOU MUST DYNO YOUR CAR even if the tuner tells you it will cause your car to explode. Stop listening to tuners, it is YOUR car!!!!! Tuners WILL tell you anything. Cigarrete companies still don't belive that cigarrettes cause cancer.
......you must dyno your car befor e and after every mod and yes, ignore the hype.
Ted
07-05-2006, 08:33 PM
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by Ted Baldwin
...........so I think it is great that Brandon has offered that you ship your car to Colorado so that they can wrestle some more HP out of it. Your requirent that you be guaranteed 520RWHP is completely unreasonable, just as Kleemann's claim of gazilion HP is unreasonable. Nobody else has made 520RWHp except for a single freak CLS55 K4. Yes this means that like other tuners, Kleemann's claim of 520RWHP is bogus. Lets call a spade a spade. You WILL NOT get 520RWHP, period, end of story. This does not mean that Kleemann is a bad company..........they are just advertising. You walk into a store and it says "sale, upto 50% off"........except only one item in the entire store is 50% off and it was already sold.
Ted
Ted
Stiff1 - It is completely unreasonable for you to demand and expect 520rwhp.
07-05-2006, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dragonAMG
Good post Ted! I agree with you completely. There way too many variables to gurantee HP and Torque.
Stiff1 - It is completely unreasonable for you to demand and expect 520rwhp.
Stiff1 - It is completely unreasonable for you to demand and expect 520rwhp.
07-05-2006, 09:03 PM
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'10 Porsche Turbo PDK, 500e, GL450
my take
Wow this thread is really starting to turn long ... hope it doesn't turn nasty.
I think that from most people's opinion and responses on this board(not just this thread) that Kleemann is a reputable company. I'm a Renntech customer so I'm not trying to make them seem better than they might be.
So if this was me ... I would do suggest this :
send the car to Kleemann at owner's expense to understand why your vehicle is performing underspec. and have Kleemann under thier warranty get you to a reasonable HP number.
If this isn't acceptable ... then I would remove the kit (at Kleemann's expense) ... turn it back to stock and get it dyno'd again. Also if possible get another stock CLS55 on the same dyno and see if your numbers are comparable stock. If the car (on the same dyno) is showing that the kleemann kit is not delivering the right DELTA HP then Kleemann does need take responsibility for this vehicle and pay for shipping to thier Colorado facility and get the car to the approx. advertised HP numbers. Now if the delta is comparable to what Kleemann is advertising ... then I would suggest you trade that car in and get another. Either that or take it up with Mercedes as to the reduced HP your noticing in your car. Also you should be paying Kleemann for the removal costs(going back to stock).
As to advertised HP numbers ... I can only say from my experience that I don't see Renntech fudging the numbers.
I think that from most people's opinion and responses on this board(not just this thread) that Kleemann is a reputable company. I'm a Renntech customer so I'm not trying to make them seem better than they might be.
So if this was me ... I would do suggest this :
send the car to Kleemann at owner's expense to understand why your vehicle is performing underspec. and have Kleemann under thier warranty get you to a reasonable HP number.
If this isn't acceptable ... then I would remove the kit (at Kleemann's expense) ... turn it back to stock and get it dyno'd again. Also if possible get another stock CLS55 on the same dyno and see if your numbers are comparable stock. If the car (on the same dyno) is showing that the kleemann kit is not delivering the right DELTA HP then Kleemann does need take responsibility for this vehicle and pay for shipping to thier Colorado facility and get the car to the approx. advertised HP numbers. Now if the delta is comparable to what Kleemann is advertising ... then I would suggest you trade that car in and get another. Either that or take it up with Mercedes as to the reduced HP your noticing in your car. Also you should be paying Kleemann for the removal costs(going back to stock).
As to advertised HP numbers ... I can only say from my experience that I don't see Renntech fudging the numbers.
07-05-2006, 09:03 PM
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2006 CLS55 K4
Originally Posted by dragonAMG
Good post Ted! I agree with you completely. There way too many variables to gurantee HP and Torque.
Stiff1 - It is completely unreasonable for you to demand and expect 520rwhp.
Stiff1 - It is completely unreasonable for you to demand and expect 520rwhp.
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
07-05-2006, 09:52 PM
#58
Originally Posted by Stiff1
I paid for 640HP. Using the sandard 19% drivetrain loss, this equates to 518.4rwhp. Before I ever decided to go with Kleemann, Cory/Brandon told me that they guarantee all of their claims. They said that they will do whatever is neccessary to make the customer happy. I am not demanding that they provide me with 520rwhp, but I am expecting to get what I pay for. If my car stock only made 300rwhp, then I would have taken it back to the dealer and had them correct the problem. After shelling out over 16K for Kleemanns 640HP, I expect to get what I paid for, is that wrong?
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
.............This same topic was discussed in another thread. Here is the link. https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...project+update
Here are the relevant quotes:
Originally Posted by JamE55
Looks great Ted! As far as crank 550HP since Kleemann advertises it on their website that if you have S8 you're suppose to be somewhere around 596hp correct? But i guess since you're not at sea level that's probably why you're getting only 550hp? Your custom pulley how much smaller is it from the original and how much boost are you running? Also with the engine bore did you gain anything from that?
.........you may wish to pay as little attention as possible to tuners advertised HP figures. I have less Hp but considerably more torque than advertised. The torque did not come from Kleemann, but came from the custom torque converter. Infactthis is the only W210 to brake into the 500's for either RWHP or rear wheel torque. Unfortunately there are not that many E55 S8's to compare RWHP and RWTorque. Yours is the only other one and you haven't had a chance to dyno your car
Looks great Ted! As far as crank 550HP since Kleemann advertises it on their website that if you have S8 you're suppose to be somewhere around 596hp correct? But i guess since you're not at sea level that's probably why you're getting only 550hp? Your custom pulley how much smaller is it from the original and how much boost are you running? Also with the engine bore did you gain anything from that?
.........you may wish to pay as little attention as possible to tuners advertised HP figures. I have less Hp but considerably more torque than advertised. The torque did not come from Kleemann, but came from the custom torque converter. Infactthis is the only W210 to brake into the 500's for either RWHP or rear wheel torque. Unfortunately there are not that many E55 S8's to compare RWHP and RWTorque. Yours is the only other one and you haven't had a chance to dyno your car
..........I think the responsibility lies on both the tuners to tone down their exergerated HP claims and the customers to stop listening to hype.
Ted
07-05-2006, 10:03 PM
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............as you can see I have a W210 E55 S8. JamE55 pointed out that I should be making 596HP based on Kleemann's claims but my car is making 550HP. So like you, Kleemann owes me some HP. But I know I will never get it.............because these HP claims are all bogus. I am sorry you fell too much for the hype.
..........I think the responsibility lies on both the tuners to tone down their exergerated HP claims and the customers to stop listening to hype.
..........I think the responsibility lies on both the tuners to tone down their exergerated HP claims and the customers to stop listening to hype.
07-05-2006, 10:17 PM
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If I paid $16,000 for a product I expect to get pretty close to the advertised results. Yes there will be some variations, but it should be close.
I agree that the power claims are inflated. I've modified my share of cars, and I just can't imagine a throttle body and inlet house upgrade ALONE giving the car another 30HP and 113 pounds of torque as per the Kleeman website.
Let's see some other K4 dyno sheets showing power to the rear wheels.
I agree that the power claims are inflated. I've modified my share of cars, and I just can't imagine a throttle body and inlet house upgrade ALONE giving the car another 30HP and 113 pounds of torque as per the Kleeman website.
Let's see some other K4 dyno sheets showing power to the rear wheels.
07-05-2006, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Stiff1
I paid for 640HP. Using the sandard 19% drivetrain loss, this equates to 518.4rwhp. Before I ever decided to go with Kleemann, Cory/Brandon told me that they guarantee all of their claims. They said that they will do whatever is neccessary to make the customer happy. I am not demanding that they provide me with 520rwhp, but I am expecting to get what I pay for. If my car stock only made 300rwhp, then I would have taken it back to the dealer and had them correct the problem. After shelling out over 16K for Kleemanns 640HP, I expect to get what I paid for, is that wrong?
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
I don't believe that Kleemann fudges their numbers at all. I think those numbers are based on their mods under optimal conditions (i.e, perfect weather, at sea level, etc). As it states on their website, "Actual power and torque output depend on a large number of variables. For detals please goto the FAQ section." Did you read this? You've got to expect some deviation from the advertised HP figures based on this alone.
You trapping 121 in the 1/4 tells me that you're making some pretty good power. Have you tried going to a different dyno shop? What type of dyno did you go to? Is it possible that the dyno is caliberated incorrectly (I don't know if a dyno even needs calibration... just throwing it out there)?
You're in a pickle because you didn't baseline the car. I strongly believe that there is another problem that existed before you added the Kleemann products. Like Brandon stated, headers are headers, cams are identical spec, same ecu programs, etc.
Rather than advertise figures that are based on perfect everything, I think Kleemann and other tuners should conservatively advertise their HP so they can overdeliver almost everytime.
Last edited by dragonAMG; 07-05-2006 at 10:31 PM.
07-05-2006, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Stiff1
Ted I hear what you asre saying and I understand that. My biggest issue is not that I am not getting the claimed 640HP (although that does bug me) but the fact that K2 cars are making more power and running faster speeds at the track then me. I am short ~75hp or so. Obviously I could have just started with the K2, but I want everything that I could get. I know that the hp per $ gets a little crazy with a K4 package, but that is what I wanted. I did not want to lose to another identical MB that has just a K1 or K2 package thus the reasoning for the K4. I don't want to sound like I'm crying about this situation, but I just want what I paid for. I have no idea how many other people have had to go through this type of ordeal, but it really sucks. I feel like I am being screwed out of some power and nobody can do anything about it.
Again, I hope it all works out for you.
Why is this thread about a slow CLS55 in the E55 room?
07-05-2006, 10:22 PM
#63
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Stiff,
As what certain members said. The best possible way to find out where the shortage is is to take all the mods out and start from scratch. Do a baseline and then add the mod/components one by one and dyno each mod and see the gains. That is the best possible way. Just my 2 cents.
As what certain members said. The best possible way to find out where the shortage is is to take all the mods out and start from scratch. Do a baseline and then add the mod/components one by one and dyno each mod and see the gains. That is the best possible way. Just my 2 cents.
07-05-2006, 10:38 PM
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He trapped 116.9..... not 121.....
I bought my renntech ecu and pulley after personally watching a friends E55 with renntech ecu pulley pull 120.8 MPH traps and meeting Hartmut from RENNtech that same evening.... my stock E55 pulled 116.8 MPH that same night....
I bought my renntech ecu and pulley after personally watching a friends E55 with renntech ecu pulley pull 120.8 MPH traps and meeting Hartmut from RENNtech that same evening.... my stock E55 pulled 116.8 MPH that same night....
Originally Posted by dragonAMG
You trapping 121 in the 1/4 tells me that you're making some pretty good power.
07-05-2006, 11:31 PM
#65
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My two cents (a few thoughts in no specific order):
1. Stiff, sorry you are unhappy but unfortunately, not even the best product delivers the same results 100% of the time.
2. If you are going to modify a $100,000.00 automobile, spend a few extra $ and ship it to the most experienced people (In this case.....Kleemann, Colorado Springs).
3. Anyone that owns their own company can relate to this dilemma. How do you handle a dissatisfied customer that you have given 110%? Are they being reasonable? Do they have a legitimate gripe? Can you ever make them happy?
4. I will not add to this bash-fest. My feelings are that Kleemann is a great Mercedes tuner with wonderful customer service. My car makes great power at the track and on the road and I will continue to use Kleemann for all my Mercedes tuning. If I sound like a homer, I am not!!! I am just a very satisfied Kleemann customer!!
1. Stiff, sorry you are unhappy but unfortunately, not even the best product delivers the same results 100% of the time.
2. If you are going to modify a $100,000.00 automobile, spend a few extra $ and ship it to the most experienced people (In this case.....Kleemann, Colorado Springs).
3. Anyone that owns their own company can relate to this dilemma. How do you handle a dissatisfied customer that you have given 110%? Are they being reasonable? Do they have a legitimate gripe? Can you ever make them happy?
4. I will not add to this bash-fest. My feelings are that Kleemann is a great Mercedes tuner with wonderful customer service. My car makes great power at the track and on the road and I will continue to use Kleemann for all my Mercedes tuning. If I sound like a homer, I am not!!! I am just a very satisfied Kleemann customer!!
07-05-2006, 11:35 PM
#66
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by Fikse
He trapped 116.9..... not 121.....
I bought my renntech ecu and pulley after personally watching a friends E55 with renntech ecu pulley pull 120.8 MPH traps and meeting Hartmut from RENNtech that same evening.... my stock E55 pulled 116.8 MPH that same night....
I bought my renntech ecu and pulley after personally watching a friends E55 with renntech ecu pulley pull 120.8 MPH traps and meeting Hartmut from RENNtech that same evening.... my stock E55 pulled 116.8 MPH that same night....
Isn't this a E55 forum??? LOL
Originally Posted by Rock
My two cents (a few thoughts in no specific order):
1. Stiff, sorry you are unhappy but unfortunately, not even the best product delivers the same results 100% of the time.
2. If you are going to modify a $100,000.00 automobile, spend a few extra $ and ship it to the most experienced people (In this case.....Kleemann, Colorado Springs).
3. Anyone that owns their own company can relate to this dilemma. How do you handle a dissatisfied customer that you have given 110%? Are they being reasonable? Do they have a legitimate gripe? Can you ever make them happy?
4. I will not add to this bash-fest. My feelings are that Kleemann is a great Mercedes tuner with wonderful customer service. My car makes great power at the track and on the road and I will continue to use Kleemann for all my Mercedes tuning. If I sound like a homer, I am not!!! I am just a very satisfied Kleemann customer!!
1. Stiff, sorry you are unhappy but unfortunately, not even the best product delivers the same results 100% of the time.
2. If you are going to modify a $100,000.00 automobile, spend a few extra $ and ship it to the most experienced people (In this case.....Kleemann, Colorado Springs).
3. Anyone that owns their own company can relate to this dilemma. How do you handle a dissatisfied customer that you have given 110%? Are they being reasonable? Do they have a legitimate gripe? Can you ever make them happy?
4. I will not add to this bash-fest. My feelings are that Kleemann is a great Mercedes tuner with wonderful customer service. My car makes great power at the track and on the road and I will continue to use Kleemann for all my Mercedes tuning. If I sound like a homer, I am not!!! I am just a very satisfied Kleemann customer!!
to help set my mind at ease in the purchase.)
Last edited by dragonAMG; 07-05-2006 at 11:46 PM.
07-05-2006, 11:45 PM
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E55
I think he is more concerned that he's getting K2 performance but has paid the K4 price.The extra amount of money and parts that he has over the K2 is'nt performing.I could be wrong though.
07-05-2006, 11:52 PM
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by Jrocket
I think he is more concerned that he's getting K2 performance but has paid the K4 price.The extra amount of money and parts that he has over the K2 is'nt performing.I could be wrong though.
07-06-2006, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by dragonAMG
I think you're probably right and that's why it really sucks that he didn't baseline his car because he has absolutely nothing to go on.
And I completely agree with you there.It needs to be put back to stock and go from there.
07-06-2006, 01:40 AM
#70
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Originally Posted by Stiff1
I paid for 640HP. Using the sandard 19% drivetrain loss, this equates to 518.4rwhp. Before I ever decided to go with Kleemann, Cory/Brandon told me that they guarantee all of their claims. They said that they will do whatever is neccessary to make the customer happy. I am not demanding that they provide me with 520rwhp, but I am expecting to get what I pay for. If my car stock only made 300rwhp, then I would have taken it back to the dealer and had them correct the problem. After shelling out over 16K for Kleemanns 640HP, I expect to get what I paid for, is that wrong?
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
Time for the Loren to chime in!
First, I completely get your perspective as an unhappy customer. You're repeatedly talking about getting the power you paid for, and I think everyone here gets that. No need to rehash it too much, let's stay on target.
I'm just reading this thread casually, and I can tell you a lot of the problem here is poor communication. So, I'll point out what I think is most important, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, no harm no foul.
First, you didn't pay for 640hp. You paid to get an engine producing factory numbers to 640hp. Brandon is pointing out that's where the problem is. It couldn't be clearer. He can throw on as many sets of headers and cams as you like, do a strip tease for you, and it won't change a thing. He strongly feels that your car isn't responding to the otherwise routine mods like other cars. That makes the car the problem, not the mods. He's really trying to make that clear, and its not coming through.
We all completely understand why that answer is not enjoyable. It means there's not much they can do except cry with you. Not having a baseline dyno hurts... but do you realize how many of us didn't get that baseline before sending our cars under the knife as well? Sure, many of you did... but an equal number didn't, me included. Hindsight is 20/20, of course. In your case, a baseline dyno would have confirmed many of the things everyone is guessing: that your car isn't as sharp out of the box as the rest. Well, that's Kleemann's take anyway.
Brandon and Co aren't the types to hang anyone out to dry. And that's where I think no one is really getting what Brandon is saying: If you send the car to CO, he will get to the bottom of your car's engine problem with the help of the local dealer. Solving that will remedy your stock engines issues, which in turn will allow the K4 mods to develop the power you paid for. So the comment about being able to fix the problem in Colorado versus Illinois was misunderstood. I think he merely met he can combine the resources of their shop AND the dealer (who is so cooperative with them) and get it resolved for you.
Last point. We love Our Renntechs & Kleemanns, etc. But let's be realistic here: Their mods are infinity less complex that the organism they are modding to begin with. Don't for a second think that going K4 is some super natural engine surgery... Its just knee replacement surgery, far less complex than the human body. That said, there are only so many things that can go wrong K1-K4 wise... and it isn't the headers, unless someone stuffed a sock up them during an install. And the pulley isn't the most original idea on the block... how much can you mess up a frickin' circle? Cams, a little trickier, but still a very strict and precise instrument that does not vary from other installs. Throttle body too... these are all stickon parts that are kinda hard to mess up, especially for experienced installers... when they don't work, they flat out don't WORK!
Which leaves the ECU as what I consider the only real variable there. Maybe its because mine currently isn't working after the recall flash followed by K2 reflash, I don't know, but boy they are variable, that's for sure. And it seems MB is happy with it that way... it confuses all of us. But the programs they use are also very standardized now too... mine seems to be a basstard exception, I wonder if yours is too...
Anyway, get it to him in CO. That's where it shoudl have gone to begin with!
Loren
Last edited by FlyByNight; 07-06-2006 at 01:46 AM.
07-06-2006, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by vrus
Post your dyno graph... Was it pig rich at the top end?
Get a shop to drill & tap a 1/8 NPT fitting into 1 of your intake manifolds and hook up a boost gauge. Check and make sure your car is making the 13psi it should be. If it isnt you either have a boost leak (could be a torn hose).. If it is a torn hose, I would take the clamps off at both ends of the intake manifolds and the supercharger outlet and inspect the hoses to make sure there are no tears.
If there is no leak, check to make sure the supercharger belt isnt slipping.. I am going through some belt issues right now and can tell you it is an easy problem to have.
The boost gauge will give you a good indication if either of these 2 issues are plaguing your car.
Second thing is to check your IAT with a datalogger.. If you are having cooling problems the car will pull timing and it will feel like a slug.
Third thing is.. I hope to god you didnt get the recall done...
My car is a pig right now (after the recall) even though I had the ECU reprogrammed.. I've lost alot of power and am trying to figure out where the hell it all went...
Good luck!
Get a shop to drill & tap a 1/8 NPT fitting into 1 of your intake manifolds and hook up a boost gauge. Check and make sure your car is making the 13psi it should be. If it isnt you either have a boost leak (could be a torn hose).. If it is a torn hose, I would take the clamps off at both ends of the intake manifolds and the supercharger outlet and inspect the hoses to make sure there are no tears.
If there is no leak, check to make sure the supercharger belt isnt slipping.. I am going through some belt issues right now and can tell you it is an easy problem to have.
The boost gauge will give you a good indication if either of these 2 issues are plaguing your car.
Second thing is to check your IAT with a datalogger.. If you are having cooling problems the car will pull timing and it will feel like a slug.
Third thing is.. I hope to god you didnt get the recall done...
My car is a pig right now (after the recall) even though I had the ECU reprogrammed.. I've lost alot of power and am trying to figure out where the hell it all went...
Good luck!
07-06-2006, 07:05 AM
#72
Originally Posted by dragonAMG
I agree with you wanting what you paid for, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. All I am saying is that it is completely unreasonable for you to make Kleemann gurantee you'll get 520rwhp if you send the car to them. In my opinion, you should take Brandon up on his offer to throughly examine your car from front to back and try to turn out more power.
I don't believe that Kleemann fudges their numbers at all. I think those numbers are based on their mods under optimal conditions (i.e, perfect weather, at sea level, etc). As it states on their website, "Actual power and torque output depend on a large number of variables. For detals please goto the FAQ section." Did you read this? You've got to expect some deviation from the advertised HP figures based on this alone.
You trapping 121 in the 1/4 tells me that you're making some pretty good power. Have you tried going to a different dyno shop? What type of dyno did you go to? Is it possible that the dyno is caliberated incorrectly (I don't know if a dyno even needs calibration... just throwing it out there)?
You're in a pickle because you didn't baseline the car. I strongly believe that there is another problem that existed before you added the Kleemann products. Like Brandon stated, headers are headers, cams are identical spec, same ecu programs, etc.
Rather than advertise figures that are based on perfect everything, I think Kleemann and other tuners should conservatively advertise their HP so they can overdeliver almost everytime.
I don't believe that Kleemann fudges their numbers at all. I think those numbers are based on their mods under optimal conditions (i.e, perfect weather, at sea level, etc). As it states on their website, "Actual power and torque output depend on a large number of variables. For detals please goto the FAQ section." Did you read this? You've got to expect some deviation from the advertised HP figures based on this alone.
You trapping 121 in the 1/4 tells me that you're making some pretty good power. Have you tried going to a different dyno shop? What type of dyno did you go to? Is it possible that the dyno is caliberated incorrectly (I don't know if a dyno even needs calibration... just throwing it out there)?
You're in a pickle because you didn't baseline the car. I strongly believe that there is another problem that existed before you added the Kleemann products. Like Brandon stated, headers are headers, cams are identical spec, same ecu programs, etc.
Rather than advertise figures that are based on perfect everything, I think Kleemann and other tuners should conservatively advertise their HP so they can overdeliver almost everytime.
..............I don't think the numbers are fudged. I think somewhere out there in Denmark there is probably one or two AMG V8K's that have 640HP. As a result, the numbers are not fudged, but the numbers do not aply to North American customers. To the extent that Kleemann USA actively promotes those numbers then Kleemann USA is simply setting itself up for dissasisfied customers to pop up.
..........Even your C55 S7 did not make the advertised HP. But you were happy with it because you knew in your heart that the advertised HP was unrealistic. That too is my mindset with my E55 S8. But not everyone has that mindset. Some will pay one million dollars to get exactly what the product says on paper, but you better give it to them. It is for this later type of customer that the tuners should reconsider the inflated advertised HP numbers. Perharps tuners should advertised realistic HP's that say, 50% of their customers can achieve.
.........Even Mercedes/AMG know this. If anything MB advertises performance numbers that they know are lower than what the car can do. They are not stupid. Could you imagine what will happenm to AMG if people dyno their cars and only one person in the world can get the advertised 469HP? I am sure there are W211 E55's and SL55's that make more than 469HP and 496HP but MB chose not use the higher numbers.......why?
Ted
Last edited by Ted Baldwin; 07-06-2006 at 07:09 AM.
07-06-2006, 08:25 AM
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2004 E55
Originally Posted by Stiff1
He did go back and redyno. His car only hit 435rwhp, but he took it to the track and ran 121+mph.
If not....it's time we start inspecting the Dyno's and it's funtionings
07-06-2006, 08:28 AM
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2004 E55
Originally Posted by Rock
My two cents (a few thoughts in no specific order):
1. Stiff, sorry you are unhappy but unfortunately, not even the best product delivers the same results 100% of the time.
2. If you are going to modify a $100,000.00 automobile, spend a few extra $ and ship it to the most experienced people (In this case.....Kleemann, Colorado Springs).
3. Anyone that owns their own company can relate to this dilemma. How do you handle a dissatisfied customer that you have given 110%? Are they being reasonable? Do they have a legitimate gripe? Can you ever make them happy?
4. I will not add to this bash-fest. My feelings are that Kleemann is a great Mercedes tuner with wonderful customer service. My car makes great power at the track and on the road and I will continue to use Kleemann for all my Mercedes tuning. If I sound like a homer, I am not!!! I am just a very satisfied Kleemann customer!!
1. Stiff, sorry you are unhappy but unfortunately, not even the best product delivers the same results 100% of the time.
2. If you are going to modify a $100,000.00 automobile, spend a few extra $ and ship it to the most experienced people (In this case.....Kleemann, Colorado Springs).
3. Anyone that owns their own company can relate to this dilemma. How do you handle a dissatisfied customer that you have given 110%? Are they being reasonable? Do they have a legitimate gripe? Can you ever make them happy?
4. I will not add to this bash-fest. My feelings are that Kleemann is a great Mercedes tuner with wonderful customer service. My car makes great power at the track and on the road and I will continue to use Kleemann for all my Mercedes tuning. If I sound like a homer, I am not!!! I am just a very satisfied Kleemann customer!!
Thank You Rock---You can add me to the Satisfied Kleemann list!!
07-06-2006, 08:31 AM
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2006 CLS55 K4
Originally Posted by Jrocket
I think he is more concerned that he's getting K2 performance but has paid the K4 price.The extra amount of money and parts that he has over the K2 is'nt performing.I could be wrong though.
Originally Posted by Loren
Which leaves the ECU as what I consider the only real variable there. Maybe its because mine currently isn't working after the recall flash followed by K2 reflash, I don't know, but boy they are variable, that's for sure. And it seems MB is happy with it that way... it confuses all of us. But the programs they use are also very standardized now too... mine seems to be a basstard exception, I wonder if yours is too...
