Very disappointed with Kleemann mods. (Long)
07-06-2006, 09:55 AM
#76
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by Ted Baldwin
..............I don't think Kleemann is fudging their numbers, but I think your comments are part of the problem. You stated correctly that one should expect some deviation from the advertised HP. If the advertised HP is correct then the deviation should be random.........meaning that just as many cars will make HP above the advertised number as are making below it. But you know this is not the case. Everyone understands that temp, altitude etc affect HP numbers, but the absolute imposiibility in replicating Kleemann's advertised numbers by any other customer on this planet will cause any critically thinking person to question the numbers. The problem is that emotion takes over. People like Kleemann and Brandon and Cory so no one wants to be critical. I like them too, but I think they created this problem for themselves. I was one of Kleemann's first customers in 2001 shortly afer they started their Us operations in 2000. This topic was discussed back then. It is nothing new. It just pops up once in a while and will continue to do so until HP claims are revised. Back then the attraction to Kleemann was the incredible advertised HP as opposed to rival Renntech. It soon became clear that while Kleemann is a great company, the advertised HP claims are unrealistic in the US. Customers understood this and still went with Kleemann. But once in awhile the topic comes up again.
..............I don't think the numbers are fudged. I think somewhere out there in Denmark there is probably one or two AMG V8K's that have 640HP. As a result, the numbers are not fudged, but the numbers do not aply to North American customers. To the extent that Kleemann USA actively promotes those numbers then Kleemann USA is simply setting itself up for dissasisfied customers to pop up.
..........Even your C55 S7 did not make the advertised HP. But you were happy with it because you knew in your heart that the advertised HP was unrealistic. That too is my mindset with my E55 S8. But not everyone has that mindset. Some will pay one million dollars to get exactly what the product says on paper, but you better give it to them. It is for this later type of customer that the tuners should reconsider the inflated advertised HP numbers. Perharps tuners should advertised realistic HP's that say, 50% of their customers can achieve.
.........Even Mercedes/AMG know this. If anything MB advertises performance numbers that they know are lower than what the car can do. They are not stupid. Could you imagine what will happenm to AMG if people dyno their cars and only one person in the world can get the advertised 469HP? I am sure there are W211 E55's and SL55's that make more than 469HP and 496HP but MB chose not use the higher numbers.......why?
Ted
..............I don't think the numbers are fudged. I think somewhere out there in Denmark there is probably one or two AMG V8K's that have 640HP. As a result, the numbers are not fudged, but the numbers do not aply to North American customers. To the extent that Kleemann USA actively promotes those numbers then Kleemann USA is simply setting itself up for dissasisfied customers to pop up.
..........Even your C55 S7 did not make the advertised HP. But you were happy with it because you knew in your heart that the advertised HP was unrealistic. That too is my mindset with my E55 S8. But not everyone has that mindset. Some will pay one million dollars to get exactly what the product says on paper, but you better give it to them. It is for this later type of customer that the tuners should reconsider the inflated advertised HP numbers. Perharps tuners should advertised realistic HP's that say, 50% of their customers can achieve.
.........Even Mercedes/AMG know this. If anything MB advertises performance numbers that they know are lower than what the car can do. They are not stupid. Could you imagine what will happenm to AMG if people dyno their cars and only one person in the world can get the advertised 469HP? I am sure there are W211 E55's and SL55's that make more than 469HP and 496HP but MB chose not use the higher numbers.......why?
Ted
07-06-2006, 10:14 AM
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Nice chime in Loren.
I'm curious to see what happens, but I can tell you that I am loving What the Big K seems to have done in this and others cases. Sorry again about your ordeal, Stiff1, but I tell ya I'd be pretty pleased with Brandon flying out just to see me. It shows the intent.
Not to go OT, but I am getting more and more scared of the detuning that MB has planned for me. I gotta find a way around it.
I'm curious to see what happens, but I can tell you that I am loving What the Big K seems to have done in this and others cases. Sorry again about your ordeal, Stiff1, but I tell ya I'd be pretty pleased with Brandon flying out just to see me. It shows the intent.
Not to go OT, but I am getting more and more scared of the detuning that MB has planned for me. I gotta find a way around it.
07-06-2006, 11:04 AM
#78
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This is a crappy situation, and I feel for both sides.
However, from an engineering standpoint, it's hard to argue with Kleemann. K4 isn't a rocket science package, it's a pretty straight forward setup and assuming that those pieces are somehow making less power with your car than with others doesn't make sense from a technical standpoint. The only real variable, really, is the ECU programming - but the exhaust, cams, intake, etc are all the same.
I've heard some "rumors" - and they are just rumors - about Knauz and some Kleemann install problems. Maybe you should have the car evaluated by another source, someone fresh with a new set of ideas. The shop I use (Chicago Performance & Tuning) was just buttoning up another Kleemann car that was not done right by a shop that will remain nameless. Seems like things are working out.
Some things I would try:
Compression Test
Leakdown Test
Pressure Test Intake (even though you hooked up a boost gauge, you still might want to check)
Check Water Pump (even though I know Kleemann replaces it)
Check IATs
New Spark Plugs
Fuel System Cleaning
Best of luck to you Cory, it's a ****ty situation to be in.
-m
However, from an engineering standpoint, it's hard to argue with Kleemann. K4 isn't a rocket science package, it's a pretty straight forward setup and assuming that those pieces are somehow making less power with your car than with others doesn't make sense from a technical standpoint. The only real variable, really, is the ECU programming - but the exhaust, cams, intake, etc are all the same.
I've heard some "rumors" - and they are just rumors - about Knauz and some Kleemann install problems. Maybe you should have the car evaluated by another source, someone fresh with a new set of ideas. The shop I use (Chicago Performance & Tuning) was just buttoning up another Kleemann car that was not done right by a shop that will remain nameless. Seems like things are working out.
Some things I would try:
Compression Test
Leakdown Test
Pressure Test Intake (even though you hooked up a boost gauge, you still might want to check)
Check Water Pump (even though I know Kleemann replaces it)
Check IATs
New Spark Plugs
Fuel System Cleaning
Best of luck to you Cory, it's a ****ty situation to be in.
-m
07-06-2006, 12:35 PM
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Thanks to everyone for the added explanations, critiques and thoughts. I will put them to good use.
As Loren mentioned, I have all my resources readily at hand in Colorado, in Chicago the exact opposite is true. I relish the chance to get to the bottom of this problem with Cory's CLS.
Cory:
I cannot promise an exact number to you. What I can promise you is I will use every resource I have available to me to make your car make as much power as possible. It will not happen in one day, it may not happen in one week, but it will happen.
Lets arrange to get your car delivered out here after we move into our new facility (first week of August) and we will get to work. I have an out of town obligation from this evening (6th) on. I will be back in the shop on Monday (10th). Lets talk when I get back.
Best-
BG
As Loren mentioned, I have all my resources readily at hand in Colorado, in Chicago the exact opposite is true. I relish the chance to get to the bottom of this problem with Cory's CLS.
Cory:
I cannot promise an exact number to you. What I can promise you is I will use every resource I have available to me to make your car make as much power as possible. It will not happen in one day, it may not happen in one week, but it will happen.
Lets arrange to get your car delivered out here after we move into our new facility (first week of August) and we will get to work. I have an out of town obligation from this evening (6th) on. I will be back in the shop on Monday (10th). Lets talk when I get back.
Best-
BG
07-06-2006, 02:22 PM
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2006 CLS55 K4
Originally Posted by Marcus Frost
Some things I would try:
Compression Test
Leakdown Test
Pressure Test Intake (even though you hooked up a boost gauge, you still might want to check)
Check Water Pump (even though I know Kleemann replaces it)
Check IATs
New Spark Plugs
Fuel System Cleaning
Best of luck to you Cory, it's a ****ty situation to be in.
-m
Compression Test
Leakdown Test
Pressure Test Intake (even though you hooked up a boost gauge, you still might want to check)
Check Water Pump (even though I know Kleemann replaces it)
Check IATs
New Spark Plugs
Fuel System Cleaning
Best of luck to you Cory, it's a ****ty situation to be in.
-m
Originally Posted by BrandonG
Cory:
I cannot promise an exact number to you. What I can promise you is I will use every resource I have available to me to make your car make as much power as possible. It will not happen in one day, it may not happen in one week, but it will happen.
Lets arrange to get your car delivered out here after we move into our new facility (first week of August) and we will get to work. I have an out of town obligation from this evening (6th) on. I will be back in the shop on Monday (10th). Lets talk when I get back.
Best-
BG
I cannot promise an exact number to you. What I can promise you is I will use every resource I have available to me to make your car make as much power as possible. It will not happen in one day, it may not happen in one week, but it will happen.
Lets arrange to get your car delivered out here after we move into our new facility (first week of August) and we will get to work. I have an out of town obligation from this evening (6th) on. I will be back in the shop on Monday (10th). Lets talk when I get back.
Best-
BG
Thank you for trying to work on this with us. I have called a trucking company and have it car lined up to be there the first week of August. Give me a call when you get back in town and we can discuss the details.
I'll keep everyone updated as to the progress of what is going on.
Thanks-Cory
07-06-2006, 02:31 PM
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Hey Brandon and Stiff,
If anything pops out problem wise (sensor or something) when you dig in at headquarters, be sure to let us all know so we can all check our systems.
Good luck to all.
Wish the dozens of bad experiences I have had with other companies over the years would have been handled with this kind of care.
If anything pops out problem wise (sensor or something) when you dig in at headquarters, be sure to let us all know so we can all check our systems.
Good luck to all.
Wish the dozens of bad experiences I have had with other companies over the years would have been handled with this kind of care.
07-06-2006, 02:38 PM
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Great support
Just had to express that I think Kleemann is providing great support in this instance. It definitely is hard these days to find companies like Renntech and Kleemann that really take care of thier customers.
Good luck!
Good luck!
07-06-2006, 05:42 PM
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Dude,
I want to get the K4 for my ride, and I for SURE want it done in CO. The customer service I'm seeing here is #1 and if you got your own MB Dealer that you collaborate with, then I gots no problems sending the E out to Co from time to time!!
hmmmm, $16K, huh??
I want to get the K4 for my ride, and I for SURE want it done in CO. The customer service I'm seeing here is #1 and if you got your own MB Dealer that you collaborate with, then I gots no problems sending the E out to Co from time to time!!
hmmmm, $16K, huh??
07-06-2006, 06:16 PM
#86
Originally Posted by jangy
Dude,
I want to get the K4 for my ride, and I for SURE want it done in CO. The customer service I'm seeing here is #1 and if you got your own MB Dealer that you collaborate with, then I gots no problems sending the E out to Co from time to time!!
hmmmm, $16K, huh??
I want to get the K4 for my ride, and I for SURE want it done in CO. The customer service I'm seeing here is #1 and if you got your own MB Dealer that you collaborate with, then I gots no problems sending the E out to Co from time to time!!
hmmmm, $16K, huh??
Want me to try to organize one with a sponsor?
07-06-2006, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by jangy
Dude,
I want to get the K4 for my ride, and I for SURE want it done in CO. The customer service I'm seeing here is #1 and if you got your own MB Dealer that you collaborate with, then I gots no problems sending the E out to Co from time to time!!
hmmmm, $16K, huh??
I want to get the K4 for my ride, and I for SURE want it done in CO. The customer service I'm seeing here is #1 and if you got your own MB Dealer that you collaborate with, then I gots no problems sending the E out to Co from time to time!!
hmmmm, $16K, huh??
07-06-2006, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Stiff1
I paid for 640HP. Using the sandard 19% drivetrain loss, this equates to 518.4rwhp. Before I ever decided to go with Kleemann, Cory/Brandon told me that they guarantee all of their claims. They said that they will do whatever is neccessary to make the customer happy. I am not demanding that they provide me with 520rwhp, but I am expecting to get what I pay for. If my car stock only made 300rwhp, then I would have taken it back to the dealer and had them correct the problem. After shelling out over 16K for Kleemanns 640HP, I expect to get what I paid for, is that wrong?
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
I own my own business and have to deal with all types of customers. If I send out a product and it does not perform as I claimed it would, then I will replace it or refund there money. How is that any different then wanting to get the HP that I paid for? Just because there are many variables does't make it ok for my car to only produce 450rwhp when others with K2s and $8k less invested make more power and run faster at the track.
Yup--Stiff is exactly on the money. It is not reasonable for anyone to make a claim that the car will generate "X" amount of power, then fall short of that claim. That's false advertising, NOT "puffing" (i.e. "This is a great car").
In all honesty, not throwing stones at all mind you, as Brandon/Kleeman appears to be awesome at customer service, I do place the blame here on the tuner. It should be standard practice to dyno the car both before and after such a significant modification to avoid such a problem about actual results meshing up with advertised claims.
In any case, it appears this will get resolved to a reasonable degree, so that is good.
Last edited by Luna.; 07-06-2006 at 10:37 PM.
07-06-2006, 11:15 PM
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Stiff--I do feel for ya. This sounds like something that would happen to me. It already sorta is....I bought my CL600 V12TT and was expecting mid 12's at the track. I had always dreamed of running in the 12's but every car I've owned seems stuck in the low 13's. I go to Moroso and run 13.2's to 13.4's. To say I was disappointed was an understatement. I've had a fair share of 1/4 mile experience so it wasn't the driving..I was hooking up strong.
I went to Renntech to get a dyno just out of curiousity and he immediately read my IAT as being way high and recommended to talk to the dealer about a new intercooler pump. If I hadn't baselined the car and gone to Renntech for the ECU/TCU mod I'm sure I would've been disappointed at the results.
Good luck with your car.....modding for me has always turned out to be a bit of a gamble. Hope yours works out--16k is a heck of a lot of dough invested.
I went to Renntech to get a dyno just out of curiousity and he immediately read my IAT as being way high and recommended to talk to the dealer about a new intercooler pump. If I hadn't baselined the car and gone to Renntech for the ECU/TCU mod I'm sure I would've been disappointed at the results.
Good luck with your car.....modding for me has always turned out to be a bit of a gamble. Hope yours works out--16k is a heck of a lot of dough invested.
07-06-2006, 11:52 PM
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"...In all honesty, not throwing stones at all mind you, as Brandon/Kleeman appears to be awesome at customer service, I do place the blame here on the tuner. It should be standard practice to dyno the car both before and after such a significant modification to avoid such a problem about actual results meshing up with advertised claims."
Let's not throw blame here! - It needs to be noted that the original work was done/started by the local MB dealership - They (MB) are the one's I have to believe you mean to point at as as the "tuner"
Let's not throw blame here! - It needs to be noted that the original work was done/started by the local MB dealership - They (MB) are the one's I have to believe you mean to point at as as the "tuner"
Last edited by Kens-E55; 07-06-2006 at 11:57 PM.
07-07-2006, 01:50 AM
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12' C63 P31, 06' Supercharged Range, 08' BMW 550i
Originally Posted by Kens-E55
"...In all honesty, not throwing stones at all mind you, as Brandon/Kleeman appears to be awesome at customer service, I do place the blame here on the tuner. It should be standard practice to dyno the car both before and after such a significant modification to avoid such a problem about actual results meshing up with advertised claims."
Let's not throw blame here! - It needs to be noted that the original work was done/started by the local MB dealership - They (MB) are the one's I have to believe you mean to point at as as the "tuner"
Let's not throw blame here! - It needs to be noted that the original work was done/started by the local MB dealership - They (MB) are the one's I have to believe you mean to point at as as the "tuner"
07-07-2006, 12:36 PM
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Apologies. Perhaps I misunderstood the following quote then:
And I thought I was pretty clear that I wasn't intending to cause any problems/stress or whatever with my "blame" comment. Kleeman seems like a class act for certain. At the end of the day, however, I believe it should be standard practice to recommend/require the customer to dyno his car prior to any significant modifications of this type. That resolves all of this in my mind. The tuner should never recommend against a base dyno run.
Originally Posted by Stiff1
I called you 1 day prior to taking the car in for the K4 package. Although time would have been tight, I still could have had the car dynoed before anything was ever put on. But, like you said, "it shouldnt matter too much because these cars all typically test at or near identical numbers". The exact words you told me on the phone were, it is not neccessary. Because of this reccomendation we did not get the car dynoed before the parts were installed.
07-07-2006, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Luna.
Apologies. Perhaps I misunderstood the following quote then:
And I thought I was pretty clear that I wasn't intending to cause any problems/stress or whatever with my "blame" comment. Kleeman seems like a class act for certain. At the end of the day, however, I believe it should be standard practice to recommend/require the customer to dyno his car prior to any significant modifications of this type. That resolves all of this in my mind. The tuner should never recommend against a base dyno run.
And I thought I was pretty clear that I wasn't intending to cause any problems/stress or whatever with my "blame" comment. Kleeman seems like a class act for certain. At the end of the day, however, I believe it should be standard practice to recommend/require the customer to dyno his car prior to any significant modifications of this type. That resolves all of this in my mind. The tuner should never recommend against a base dyno run.
07-07-2006, 03:03 PM
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Yeah, I find it interesting that all the cars test at near identical numbers, but when his car tested low post-mods, it becomes your car is a low HP car from the factory. Makes you wonder if he hadn't started this thread, how anxious would Kleemann be to use all the resources available to them to fix his problem?
07-11-2006, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumpy666
Yeah, I find it interesting that all the cars test at near identical numbers, but when his car tested low post-mods, it becomes your car is a low HP car from the factory. Makes you wonder if he hadn't started this thread, how anxious would Kleemann be to use all the resources available to them to fix his problem?
07-11-2006, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumpy666
Yeah, I find it interesting that all the cars test at near identical numbers, but when his car tested low post-mods, it becomes your car is a low HP car from the factory. Makes you wonder if he hadn't started this thread, how anxious would Kleemann be to use all the resources available to them to fix his problem?
They didn't start re-offering support to him just because of this post... do you think they sit here and watch this board all day? Please....
Every company everywhere will have some naysayer or conflict... its the nature of business. However, in this particular case I think more went astray with communication than anything else.
You keep wondering all you like... The rest of us know we can at least expect better support than most other tuners ever offer...
Loren
07-11-2006, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BrandonG
As interested as I would always be to ensure a customer gets maximized results from our product, as I believe I have indicated. This is not the first time someone has had issue with services or products bearing our name installed elsewhere, nor will it be the last. I intend to be in this business for a long time and by the end of the day all you really offer someone is service and expertise- lots of companies make parts. I was well into trying to solve the issue far before this post was made.
07-11-2006, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Loren
no, it makes YOU wonder, because you haven't dealt with Kleemann & Co. If you've been reading carefully, you'd have noticed a lot of Kleemann customers on here (with problems & without) that universally agree their customer service is excellent.
They didn't start re-offering support to him just because of this post... do you think they sit here and watch this board all day? Please....
Every company everywhere will have some naysayer or conflict... its the nature of business. However, in this particular case I think more went astray with communication than anything else.
You keep wondering all you like... The rest of us know we can at least expect better support than most other tuners ever offer...
Loren
They didn't start re-offering support to him just because of this post... do you think they sit here and watch this board all day? Please....
Every company everywhere will have some naysayer or conflict... its the nature of business. However, in this particular case I think more went astray with communication than anything else.
You keep wondering all you like... The rest of us know we can at least expect better support than most other tuners ever offer...
Loren
07-11-2006, 09:47 PM
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Brandon and Loren...PLEASE do not reply to this thread. Let it die. There is no point to make.
We ALL know the story here and what hapenned and WHEN. Had Grumpy been staying current, he would have noted that the level of customer service that the Stiff1 got was consistent, as it has been from Kleeman. This thread should NEVER have been started and I lay the owness on Stiff1 to get on here and stop the charades. This forum is not here so we can pressure vendors into things. The last thing we need is somebody airing their own laundry simply because they jumped the gun.
Had it been worded differently, yes it would have made a good post. But, as it is, it was an attempted pressurizing that Kleeman does not need to cave into. They not only will not lose a customer over this, I would bet that they will actually GAIN a few. If EVOSPORT was not so close to me, I would be on the K2-4 wagon now. I'm not even a customer and I am defending them.
Keep the discussions objective and the "court of public opinion" will prevail. Turn it personal and you only see yourself.
We ALL know the story here and what hapenned and WHEN. Had Grumpy been staying current, he would have noted that the level of customer service that the Stiff1 got was consistent, as it has been from Kleeman. This thread should NEVER have been started and I lay the owness on Stiff1 to get on here and stop the charades. This forum is not here so we can pressure vendors into things. The last thing we need is somebody airing their own laundry simply because they jumped the gun.
Had it been worded differently, yes it would have made a good post. But, as it is, it was an attempted pressurizing that Kleeman does not need to cave into. They not only will not lose a customer over this, I would bet that they will actually GAIN a few. If EVOSPORT was not so close to me, I would be on the K2-4 wagon now. I'm not even a customer and I am defending them.
Keep the discussions objective and the "court of public opinion" will prevail. Turn it personal and you only see yourself.
07-11-2006, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumpy666
Communication is the bedrock of customer service. It failed and he came here to get the channels open again. As I stated above, it worked. I stand by my original comments.
I find it interesting that you of all people... the one that covets clear and educated prose... would not see that exact quality in Brandon's replies. So, color me amazed you're not ripping through the user's rambling posts as you should be. They are more mumbled than any communication on Kleemann's end. He wasn't getting / accepting what Kleemann was saying. His dealer and installer failed him by not figuring the problem out, not Kleemann.
And that's exactly what I had to explain in this thread. And I understood it quite easily. And I don't work for the company! That's MY ORIGINAL point... that the communication problem resides with the person that whined and complained to complete strangers on a board about getting the "640hp he paid for." Not from Brandon or Kleemann... but from another installer and another dealer. He heard what Brandon was saying, but didn't LISTEN... that affected his ability to shape the outcome in his favor, sooner.
Kleemann is going to do nothing more than have a competent dealer look at the car and figure it out with them. As I originally said, there's only so much you can mess up with headers and pulleys & cams. Its not rocket science.
Nor is communicating properly with the vendor you're complaining about. It's not always the vendors fault.
Before you accuse me of putting Kleemann up on a pillar of worship, realize they had to program my ECU 3 times because of this damn new MB Flash, causing my car to be down for 2 weeks. When it was working, I had no supercharger. That's when I saw my first M5 in my area. So, I understand frustrating. They will make mistakes or need time to figure things out like any group of humans, but one thing I can never, ever, accuse them of is communicating poorly. When you buy your first AMG and work with them, you'll finally know what I'm talking about. Do you honestly think its coincidental that a group of grown men on an anonymous board like this cheer Kleemann and praise their customer service and COMMUNICATION for no known reason? Do we strike you as particularly easy to please? Please.
Loren
