*** $1,500 CF Airbox with HP benefits ***
07-23-2006, 12:25 PM
#176
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2003 E55 AMG
My instinct was to increase the height & length of the boxes.. I just didnt want to go ahead and do this, and then when the product is produced people get upset because they cant use their stock engine cover anymore or their stock air tubes.
As for the project and pricing.. My initial post of the approx $1500 airbox was to recreate something like what Renntech provides for double the price. Renntech doesnt provide new air tubes so those are not included in the price.
Once I started talking to the CF guys I decided since I am doing all this work, I am going to design new tubes and new engine cover also. Both of these pieces were to be extra costs and OPTIONAL if anyone wanted them.
NOW.. If we do increase the sizes of the boxes, then, that means everyone will be forced to BUY the CF air tubes that we are designing. That means whatever the price of the air tubes was going to be will have to be added to airbox price and you will end paying $1500 + COST OF AIR TUBES.
The CF Engine cover will still be an optional item to anyone that wants the complete package.
I cant throw numbers out for the air tubes because I wasnt given any yet. If I had to guess I would say that airbox + air tubes will be in the $2000 mark. DONT QUOTE ME.. That's just me spitting out numbers.. I'll verify with CF company once we get to the nitty gritty of it.
As for the project and pricing.. My initial post of the approx $1500 airbox was to recreate something like what Renntech provides for double the price. Renntech doesnt provide new air tubes so those are not included in the price.
Once I started talking to the CF guys I decided since I am doing all this work, I am going to design new tubes and new engine cover also. Both of these pieces were to be extra costs and OPTIONAL if anyone wanted them.
NOW.. If we do increase the sizes of the boxes, then, that means everyone will be forced to BUY the CF air tubes that we are designing. That means whatever the price of the air tubes was going to be will have to be added to airbox price and you will end paying $1500 + COST OF AIR TUBES.
The CF Engine cover will still be an optional item to anyone that wants the complete package.
I cant throw numbers out for the air tubes because I wasnt given any yet. If I had to guess I would say that airbox + air tubes will be in the $2000 mark. DONT QUOTE ME.. That's just me spitting out numbers.. I'll verify with CF company once we get to the nitty gritty of it.
07-23-2006, 12:36 PM
#177
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Dont spend any time concerning yourself with this issue.. No matter what airbox design we did, if the intercoolers are changed to the SLR style, they would have to be redone. The intercoolers occupy most or all of the space available to the air boxes.
No point in confining our design ideas for the airbox thinking about intercoolers right now... An optimal design for the SLR Intercooler setup wouldnt be optimal for one without it.
No point in confining our design ideas for the airbox thinking about intercoolers right now... An optimal design for the SLR Intercooler setup wouldnt be optimal for one without it.
Originally Posted by MACHC5
Vic,
I'm wondering if... a larger air box will work with the upgraded intercoolers...
MachC5
I'm wondering if... a larger air box will work with the upgraded intercoolers...
MachC5
07-23-2006, 12:39 PM
#178
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I know 2 people that have done this test already...
If you disconnect the airboxes on both sides of the Y-pipe and attach a tube on each end with a K&N 6" connical filter you will see a 15 - 20 hp improvement on the dyno.
That tells us that the stock airboxes (airfilter size particularly) cant provide enough air to the engine to satisfy it.
Now, the only way I can get bigger filters in the engine bay is to either go to a very long conical design, or use longer panel filters and possibly slant them at a 30 - 45 degree angle and then mold the airbox around it.
If you disconnect the airboxes on both sides of the Y-pipe and attach a tube on each end with a K&N 6" connical filter you will see a 15 - 20 hp improvement on the dyno.
That tells us that the stock airboxes (airfilter size particularly) cant provide enough air to the engine to satisfy it.
Now, the only way I can get bigger filters in the engine bay is to either go to a very long conical design, or use longer panel filters and possibly slant them at a 30 - 45 degree angle and then mold the airbox around it.
Originally Posted by OzE55
Why would increasing the volume of air in the box help performance?
My very rough calculations suggest that at 6000rpm over 300 litres per second of air is sucked into the engine. An increase in the size of the box of a few litres seems insignificant.
Am I on the wrong track?
My very rough calculations suggest that at 6000rpm over 300 litres per second of air is sucked into the engine. An increase in the size of the box of a few litres seems insignificant.
Am I on the wrong track?
07-23-2006, 01:51 PM
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I did say the calculation was rough!
I decided that since there is only one 'power stroke' per 2 revolutions of the crank shaft you should divide 5500cc times 6000rpm by 2.
(5500x6000/(2x60).
Whether its 275 or 550l/sec, the point is that the size of the airbox is only important as regards the size of the filter it contains and the resistance of the filter to airflow. Unless you change the filter size, changing the box size doesn't seem to offer any advantages.
If the box size goes from 10l to 20l that extra volume will be "used" in less than one thirtith of a second.
This isn't my area of expertise - just trying to apply some logic.
I decided that since there is only one 'power stroke' per 2 revolutions of the crank shaft you should divide 5500cc times 6000rpm by 2.
(5500x6000/(2x60).
Whether its 275 or 550l/sec, the point is that the size of the airbox is only important as regards the size of the filter it contains and the resistance of the filter to airflow. Unless you change the filter size, changing the box size doesn't seem to offer any advantages.
If the box size goes from 10l to 20l that extra volume will be "used" in less than one thirtith of a second.
This isn't my area of expertise - just trying to apply some logic.
07-23-2006, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by vrus
I know 2 people that have done this test already...
If you disconnect the airboxes on both sides of the Y-pipe and attach a tube on each end with a K&N 6" connical filter you will see a 15 - 20 hp improvement on the dyno.
That tells us that the stock airboxes (airfilter size particularly) cant provide enough air to the engine to satisfy it.
Now, the only way I can get bigger filters in the engine bay is to either go to a very long conical design, or use longer panel filters and possibly slant them at a 30 - 45 degree angle and then mold the airbox around it.
If you disconnect the airboxes on both sides of the Y-pipe and attach a tube on each end with a K&N 6" connical filter you will see a 15 - 20 hp improvement on the dyno.
That tells us that the stock airboxes (airfilter size particularly) cant provide enough air to the engine to satisfy it.
Now, the only way I can get bigger filters in the engine bay is to either go to a very long conical design, or use longer panel filters and possibly slant them at a 30 - 45 degree angle and then mold the airbox around it.
In fact, if that's true why go to all this trouble? Just do the conical filters in the engine bay and your done - certinly cheaper and less hassle. Just not as pretty!
Also, if thats true, it makes a non-sense of trying to insulate everything from the underhood air temperature because the conical filters would be sucking very hot air all the time. I can't see how thats a good thing, but sometimes logic isn't fact.
07-23-2006, 02:27 PM
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4am brainstorm!
To test the theory do a dyno run without filters. That, effectively, eliminates the airbox volume as a factor. There is simply a 'straight' tube to the throttle body. If that shows no gain then the box size and filters are irrelevant as restrictors to hp/tq. If there are sizable gains then back to square one - less restrictive filters.
To test the theory do a dyno run without filters. That, effectively, eliminates the airbox volume as a factor. There is simply a 'straight' tube to the throttle body. If that shows no gain then the box size and filters are irrelevant as restrictors to hp/tq. If there are sizable gains then back to square one - less restrictive filters.
07-23-2006, 02:42 PM
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That's what I am trying to say.. The test has already been done by 2 different people that I know and it came out 15-20hp higher.
If I used Connical filters, I of course meant that they would be encased by the CF airboxes. I would never just put 2 connical filters in the engine bay and have them suck up the hot air.
Also, when I said increased volume of air box I automatically assumed everyone understood that to mean that I would increase the size of the air filters also.
I am leaning towards flat panel filter with an increase in surface area by 15% - 20%.. I'll see where the measurements take me and then decide from there.
If I used Connical filters, I of course meant that they would be encased by the CF airboxes. I would never just put 2 connical filters in the engine bay and have them suck up the hot air.
Also, when I said increased volume of air box I automatically assumed everyone understood that to mean that I would increase the size of the air filters also.
I am leaning towards flat panel filter with an increase in surface area by 15% - 20%.. I'll see where the measurements take me and then decide from there.
Originally Posted by OzE55
4am brainstorm!
To test the theory do a dyno run without filters. That, effectively, eliminates the airbox volume as a factor. There is simply a 'straight' tube to the throttle body. If that shows no gain then the box size and filters are irrelevant as restrictors to hp/tq. If there are sizable gains then back to square one - less restrictive filters.
To test the theory do a dyno run without filters. That, effectively, eliminates the airbox volume as a factor. There is simply a 'straight' tube to the throttle body. If that shows no gain then the box size and filters are irrelevant as restrictors to hp/tq. If there are sizable gains then back to square one - less restrictive filters.
07-23-2006, 03:19 PM
#183
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REPOST so they will see it:
*** DOCSTONE & KEE55AMG: If you guys are still interested in this, please send the funds over so I know that it is done. ***
*** DOCSTONE & KEE55AMG: If you guys are still interested in this, please send the funds over so I know that it is done. ***
07-23-2006, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by OzE55
I did say the calculation was rough!
I decided that since there is only one 'power stroke' per 2 revolutions of the crank shaft you should divide 5500cc times 6000rpm by 2.
(5500x6000/(2x60).
I decided that since there is only one 'power stroke' per 2 revolutions of the crank shaft you should divide 5500cc times 6000rpm by 2.
(5500x6000/(2x60).
(5.5x6000)/(2x60)x1.85 = 508
The 1.85 component is from boost, which causes an increase in flow.
07-23-2006, 06:54 PM
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20+ to list......
I want a complete package of option 1, meaning CF tubes, CF boxes, CF engine cover, and possibly something better than the stock curly y-pipe. I don't mind something in the 2500 ball park as long as it could be beautifully made. 
07-23-2006, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Grumpy666
OK, I see the difference - you're missing something. The calculation should be
(5.5x6000)/(2x60)x1.85 = 508
The 1.85 component is from boost, which causes an increase in flow.
(5.5x6000)/(2x60)x1.85 = 508
The 1.85 component is from boost, which causes an increase in flow.
Why 1.85? Does it depend on the amount of boost?
07-23-2006, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by vrus
That's what I am trying to say.. The test has already been done by 2 different people that I know and it came out 15-20hp higher.
If I used Connical filters, I of course meant that they would be encased by the CF airboxes. I would never just put 2 connical filters in the engine bay and have them suck up the hot air.
Also, when I said increased volume of air box I automatically assumed everyone understood that to mean that I would increase the size of the air filters also.
I am leaning towards flat panel filter with an increase in surface area by 15% - 20%.. I'll see where the measurements take me and then decide from there.
If I used Connical filters, I of course meant that they would be encased by the CF airboxes. I would never just put 2 connical filters in the engine bay and have them suck up the hot air.
Also, when I said increased volume of air box I automatically assumed everyone understood that to mean that I would increase the size of the air filters also.
I am leaning towards flat panel filter with an increase in surface area by 15% - 20%.. I'll see where the measurements take me and then decide from there.
07-23-2006, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by OzE55
Why 1.85? Does it depend on the amount of boost?
07-23-2006, 08:03 PM
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'03 E55 AMG
Originally Posted by vrus
Welcome back! Like Kev said, follow those instructions and I'll add your name to the R&D Group list.
I'll get out the funds to you via paypal tomorrow. Thanks for including me!
07-23-2006, 08:26 PM
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No problem!! Ultimately, the more people we include in the first run the better the pricing will be, so I welcome anyone to jump in with us.
Welcome to the "First Ever Group R&D Project" Club.
Welcome to the "First Ever Group R&D Project" Club.
Originally Posted by Apple '55
Vrus:
I'll get out the funds to you via paypal tomorrow. Thanks for including me!
I'll get out the funds to you via paypal tomorrow. Thanks for including me!
07-24-2006, 03:54 AM
#192
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I vote #1 although we should have an air filter size that is standardised and readily available from many suplpiers...
So I think first find common larger / fatter filters and then try work the airbox design around that ?
So I think first find common larger / fatter filters and then try work the airbox design around that ?
07-24-2006, 09:59 AM
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'09 911 C4S
REPOST for 2MANYCARS
Here're the payment instructions. Looks like we already breakthrough the 4 grand mark. Mad props to fellow beast owners!
Here're the payment instructions. Looks like we already breakthrough the 4 grand mark. Mad props to fellow beast owners!
Originally Posted by vrus
Ok guys.. I am trying to find the best way to handle this so it is as painless as possible...
1) Please send the $200 + 3% Paypal fee = $206 to Paypal acct: vrus1@hotmail.com
2) If you dont have paypal, email me at vrus1@hotmail.com and I will email you back the wire instructions. You can wire the funds to me so that we dont have to deal with couriers and mailing stuff across the border.
*** If you send me Paypal money please put your screen name in the comments section ***
1) Please send the $200 + 3% Paypal fee = $206 to Paypal acct: vrus1@hotmail.com
2) If you dont have paypal, email me at vrus1@hotmail.com and I will email you back the wire instructions. You can wire the funds to me so that we dont have to deal with couriers and mailing stuff across the border.
*** If you send me Paypal money please put your screen name in the comments section ***
07-24-2006, 10:08 AM
#195
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Glad to see you guys are thinking along the same lines as me.. I will keep researching what filters we can use and go from there.
Welcome to the newest member of Group R&D Project: Apple '55
Payment Status
-------------------
Total Participants: 26
Total Paid: 24
Apple '55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
catalystkid ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
DocStone .......................
dsc ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
e55 killer ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
ENDSMTG ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Fleebee ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Griffin337 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
GTA23109a .......................$206.00 RECEIVED
Jakpro1 .......................$206.00 RECEIVED
JAY55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
jparch ....................... $200.00 RECEIVED (CASH)
KEE55AMG .......................
Kens-E55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Kev04C320 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Loren ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
M5KILLR ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
MACHC5 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Mad TKD ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
mstenberg ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
oblax4 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
rboorgu .......................$206.00 RECEIVED
Rock ....................... $200.00 RECEIVED (WIRED)
stevebez ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
vader ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
W211E55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Welcome to the newest member of Group R&D Project: Apple '55
Payment Status
-------------------
Total Participants: 26
Total Paid: 24
Apple '55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
catalystkid ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
DocStone .......................
dsc ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
e55 killer ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
ENDSMTG ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Fleebee ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Griffin337 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
GTA23109a .......................$206.00 RECEIVED
Jakpro1 .......................$206.00 RECEIVED
JAY55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
jparch ....................... $200.00 RECEIVED (CASH)
KEE55AMG .......................
Kens-E55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Kev04C320 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Loren ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
M5KILLR ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
MACHC5 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Mad TKD ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
mstenberg ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
oblax4 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
rboorgu .......................$206.00 RECEIVED
Rock ....................... $200.00 RECEIVED (WIRED)
stevebez ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
vader ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
W211E55 ....................... $206.00 RECEIVED
Last edited by vrus; 07-24-2006 at 11:30 AM.
07-24-2006, 10:29 AM
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2004 E55
I vote for performance and given a choice would like a
"bigger/larger" flat filter similar to stock.
I guess that would mean #1 ?.
I'm not interested to drop the $'s and have no performance gain.
"All show and No Go" is not my want here.
Thanks Victor for the update.
"bigger/larger" flat filter similar to stock.
I guess that would mean #1 ?.
I'm not interested to drop the $'s and have no performance gain.
"All show and No Go" is not my want here.
Thanks Victor for the update.
07-24-2006, 12:13 PM
#197
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Gotcha!
Originally Posted by Kens-E55
I vote for performance and given a choice would like a
"bigger/larger" flat filter similar to stock.
I guess that would mean #1 ?.
I'm not interested to drop the $'s and have no performance gain.
"All show and No Go" is not my want here.
Thanks Victor for the update.
"bigger/larger" flat filter similar to stock.
I guess that would mean #1 ?.
I'm not interested to drop the $'s and have no performance gain.
"All show and No Go" is not my want here.
Thanks Victor for the update.
07-24-2006, 03:25 PM
#198
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Originally Posted by Rock
What do you guys think of this design? I think we need something that not only adds power but looks like it was rooted in German engineering.
The "exit" of the CF airbox into the CF tubes....Should we not have as large and smooth an exit "neck" that gets reduced to the 80mm on the back end into the "y" pipe? This will allow more airflow and where the "neck" attaches to the airbox into airtubes, it won't be a "choke". Just my .02. Any feedback appreciated.
07-24-2006, 04:08 PM
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Hello Vrus,
I have not taken the time to read through 4 pages of this thread, but for the most part I see your at it again.
Please count me in and expect a Fed Ex the first week of August. I may actually be home by then.
I have not taken the time to read through 4 pages of this thread, but for the most part I see your at it again.
Please count me in and expect a Fed Ex the first week of August. I may actually be home by then.
07-24-2006, 04:10 PM
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What's up buddy!! Where the heck have you been hiding???
I have a nice 80mm TB sitting here waiting for you. You might as well send that money too.. LOL...
I have a nice 80mm TB sitting here waiting for you. You might as well send that money too.. LOL...
Originally Posted by AMG BLISS
Hello Vrus,
I have not taken the time to read through 4 pages of this thread, but for the most part I see your at it again.
Please count me in and expect a Fed Ex the first week of August. I may actually be home by then.
I have not taken the time to read through 4 pages of this thread, but for the most part I see your at it again.
Please count me in and expect a Fed Ex the first week of August. I may actually be home by then.
