Cams vs. Gears?
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From: school west coast-Summer Internships Va and Bmore
E55 (for sale if the right offer comes along)...too many others to list
Cams vs. Gears?
K guys I need your help...I am trying to increase the low end power of my car and I think gears are the way to go?
I tried to do a search on this forum and read the stuff Vrus posted about the SLR gears. I am not ready to put the SLR Cams in until we have a good track record of success. That means at least three of you. LOL
I called Powerchip today and spoke to a brilliant guy named Wayne. Powerchip was instrumental in fixing my ECU drama post reflash. I also have their software on my 210E55.
Wayne is looking at my A/F ratios post TB to see if I can do a custom tune to correct the rich result. He informed me that the Cams would require a custom ECU upgrade? He also reminded me that the Cams will increase my top end power, but hurt me off the line. My beast is already a freak of nature on the top end, so I don’t want to waste money on that mod. He suggested I change out the gears in my car to achieve quicker low end acceleration. No gain in HP, but quicker acceleration. The gears sound like a better mod for me? Any thoughts?
I know the higher number gear the better. Where should I purchase these special gears? What model should I take them from?
Has anyone done this on the 211 with mods?
I am also going to add Vic's airbox when he does the second round.
I tried to do a search on this forum and read the stuff Vrus posted about the SLR gears. I am not ready to put the SLR Cams in until we have a good track record of success. That means at least three of you. LOL
I called Powerchip today and spoke to a brilliant guy named Wayne. Powerchip was instrumental in fixing my ECU drama post reflash. I also have their software on my 210E55.
Wayne is looking at my A/F ratios post TB to see if I can do a custom tune to correct the rich result. He informed me that the Cams would require a custom ECU upgrade? He also reminded me that the Cams will increase my top end power, but hurt me off the line. My beast is already a freak of nature on the top end, so I don’t want to waste money on that mod. He suggested I change out the gears in my car to achieve quicker low end acceleration. No gain in HP, but quicker acceleration. The gears sound like a better mod for me? Any thoughts?I know the higher number gear the better. Where should I purchase these special gears? What model should I take them from?
Has anyone done this on the 211 with mods?
I am also going to add Vic's airbox when he does the second round.
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Joined: Aug 2004
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From: SoCal
04 E55
You need some dragstrip data to make a decision about the gears. Unless your car is a hookin' **** and/or you plan on running DRs 100% of the time, gears will (Edit: *may*) do you more harm than good. Another interesting thing about gearing is, too little gear (numerically lower) can usually be overcome by (you guessed it) MORE POWER !!!!! Of course this power needs to be at an rpm range where it is useful to the launch. (i.e. not in the last 300rpm of the power band)
My car should be done with the SLR cam install about 24hrs after they arrive (so Tuesday afternoon??) and I'll get some more data to pass along.
Another thing I'm a little surprised no one here has tried yet is getting the torque converter loosened up a little. If you want a harder launch, that'd be the ticket right there (again, assuming you can put the power to the ground). All the torque multiplication benefits of shorter gears without the downside at top end or freeway cruising (since they "lock up" at the computer's command). If someone can get their hands on a core (*cough*VRUS*cough*) any number of reputable converter builders should be able to open it, make a minor vane or stator adjustment to loosen it slightly and reweld it. Hell, if someone can find me a core, I'll do it.
My car should be done with the SLR cam install about 24hrs after they arrive (so Tuesday afternoon??) and I'll get some more data to pass along.
Another thing I'm a little surprised no one here has tried yet is getting the torque converter loosened up a little. If you want a harder launch, that'd be the ticket right there (again, assuming you can put the power to the ground). All the torque multiplication benefits of shorter gears without the downside at top end or freeway cruising (since they "lock up" at the computer's command). If someone can get their hands on a core (*cough*VRUS*cough*) any number of reputable converter builders should be able to open it, make a minor vane or stator adjustment to loosen it slightly and reweld it. Hell, if someone can find me a core, I'll do it.
Last edited by GTA23109a; Nov 15, 2006 at 08:21 PM.
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Drives Slowly
You need some dragstrip data to make a decision about the gears. Unless your car is a hookin' **** and/or you plan on running DRs 100% of the time, gears will (Edit: *may*) do you more harm than good. Another interesting thing about gearing is, too little gear (numerically lower) can usually be overcome by (you guessed it) MORE POWER !!!!! Of course this power needs to be at an rpm range where it is useful to the launch. (i.e. not in the last 300rpm of the power
My car is more powerful than ever (124+ traps) but my car is no faster from 0-115mph than most stock E55. All the power and great gearing do you no good if you cannot get it to the ground. Is the only solution full-time slicks?
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From: Sugar Land, TX
BMW E39
What are you guys at right now? 2.82s?
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E55 (for sale if the right offer comes along)...too many others to list
You need some dragstrip data to make a decision about the gears. Unless your car is a hookin' **** and/or you plan on running DRs 100% of the time, gears will (Edit: *may*) do you more harm than good. Another interesting thing about gearing is, too little gear (numerically lower) can usually be overcome by (you guessed it) MORE POWER !!!!! Of course this power needs to be at an rpm range where it is useful to the launch. (i.e. not in the last 300rpm of the power band)
My car should be done with the SLR cam install about 24hrs after they arrive (so Tuesday afternoon??) and I'll get some more data to pass along.
Another thing I'm a little surprised no one here has tried yet is getting the torque converter loosened up a little. If you want a harder launch, that'd be the ticket right there (again, assuming you can put the power to the ground). All the torque multiplication benefits of shorter gears without the downside at top end or freeway cruising (since they "lock up" at the computer's command). If someone can get their hands on a core (*cough*VRUS*cough*) any number of reputable converter builders should be able to open it, make a minor vane or stator adjustment to loosen it slightly and reweld it. Hell, if someone can find me a core, I'll do it.
My car should be done with the SLR cam install about 24hrs after they arrive (so Tuesday afternoon??) and I'll get some more data to pass along.
Another thing I'm a little surprised no one here has tried yet is getting the torque converter loosened up a little. If you want a harder launch, that'd be the ticket right there (again, assuming you can put the power to the ground). All the torque multiplication benefits of shorter gears without the downside at top end or freeway cruising (since they "lock up" at the computer's command). If someone can get their hands on a core (*cough*VRUS*cough*) any number of reputable converter builders should be able to open it, make a minor vane or stator adjustment to loosen it slightly and reweld it. Hell, if someone can find me a core, I'll do it.
Do you need to upgrade to an engine management software to change the torque converter? I am able to get the power to the ground with my quaife and DR's, but I can't drive around like that all the time. This is also my daily driver. LOL You can't take corners on those damn things when running on 19's.
Do the cams including the SLR cams cause you to loose a little low end power? At this point, anything on the top end is a waste of money for me.
I am also running into bad luck with the NOS. The only guy I trust in S. Cali is busy building race cars. You guys have no idea how hard it is to find a MB NOS expert! I think it's time to look out of state.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Please keep us updated on the cams.
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E55 (for sale if the right offer comes along)...too many others to list
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Drives Slowly
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Thread Starter
MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: school west coast-Summer Internships Va and Bmore
E55 (for sale if the right offer comes along)...too many others to list
No numbers yet. I am going to the track in December and January. I was waiting for the TB to get installed first. Now I am ready to go kick some butt. I race all the time on the street (stupid I know) and I have done very well. I got my butt kicked by a modified Ferrari, hence my quest for more low end power. I demand a rematch! Our cars are so damn heavy!
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Banned
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Angela,
The straight-up answer is that you dont need gears unless you want cams.. The cams will shift the power up the rev range slightly.. The shorter gears will compliment that change by allowing the engine to rev into the powerband quicker.
Bottom line is dont bother with gears unless you want to put the SLR or comparable cams into your car.
I will be doing the gears, but only after I put the heads & cams in my car.
Also, I think pushing the torque curve up slightly in the rev range is beneficial for these cars since they are tire-shreading monsters already.. Making power a little bit higher up just makes it easier to hook the car and get it moving. I think cams are just what the doctor ordered..
The straight-up answer is that you dont need gears unless you want cams.. The cams will shift the power up the rev range slightly.. The shorter gears will compliment that change by allowing the engine to rev into the powerband quicker.
Bottom line is dont bother with gears unless you want to put the SLR or comparable cams into your car.
I will be doing the gears, but only after I put the heads & cams in my car.
Also, I think pushing the torque curve up slightly in the rev range is beneficial for these cars since they are tire-shreading monsters already.. Making power a little bit higher up just makes it easier to hook the car and get it moving. I think cams are just what the doctor ordered..
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Joined: Aug 2004
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From: SoCal
04 E55
There should be no need to adjust the computer for a torque converter. All the computer does for it is control the point of lock-up and that shouldn't need to change. If someone can track down a converter core (I'll ask my guy about it when I see him Friday) we should be able to send it out to have it adjusted. It may take a couple tries to get it exactly right, but should be well worth it when done. Precision Industries does a lot of "modified stock" converters for a ton of applications. They, or someone like them, should have no trouble performing the work we need.
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From: Richmond Hill, Ontario
2003 E55 AMG
Hey Don,
I emailed my parts guy to ask.. I remember checking on this before because someone else mentioned this to me.. I'll wait for his reply and let you know.
I emailed my parts guy to ask.. I remember checking on this before because someone else mentioned this to me.. I'll wait for his reply and let you know.
There should be no need to adjust the computer for a torque converter. All the computer does for it is control the point of lock-up and that shouldn't need to change. If someone can track down a converter core (I'll ask my guy about it when I see him Friday) we should be able to send it out to have it adjusted. It may take a couple tries to get it exactly right, but should be well worth it when done. Precision Industries does a lot of "modified stock" converters for a ton of applications. They, or someone like them, should have no trouble performing the work we need.
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Posts: 287
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From: SoCal
04 E55
Another possible option just occured to me . . .
"Back in the day" the "cheap" way to get a little more stall out of a V8 F-body (Camaro/Firebird) was to put a stock S-10 pickup converter in it. Stay with me here!! The V6 in the S-10 had a higher stall converter to get it to stall "correctly" behind the smaller motor, so when it was placed behind the larger V8, poof: higher stall. This only worked because both vehicles shared a common transmission.
NOW: is there another car we can pirate a converter from like a E500 or E430, etc?? If it shares the same 5-speed transmission and it'll take the torque, it should work and provide a higher stall behind the E55k motor.
"Back in the day" the "cheap" way to get a little more stall out of a V8 F-body (Camaro/Firebird) was to put a stock S-10 pickup converter in it. Stay with me here!! The V6 in the S-10 had a higher stall converter to get it to stall "correctly" behind the smaller motor, so when it was placed behind the larger V8, poof: higher stall. This only worked because both vehicles shared a common transmission.
NOW: is there another car we can pirate a converter from like a E500 or E430, etc?? If it shares the same 5-speed transmission and it'll take the torque, it should work and provide a higher stall behind the E55k motor.
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From: Cary, IL
2003 CL55 Kompressor Horizon Blue Metallic
There should be no need to adjust the computer for a torque converter. All the computer does for it is control the point of lock-up and that shouldn't need to change. If someone can track down a converter core (I'll ask my guy about it when I see him Friday) we should be able to send it out to have it adjusted. It may take a couple tries to get it exactly right, but should be well worth it when done. Precision Industries does a lot of "modified stock" converters for a ton of applications. They, or someone like them, should have no trouble performing the work we need.
The lock-up on my torque convertor has been immobilized. Near as I can tell, rolling flast stall ~2600 RPM (which makes sense).
I actually want a lower stall, but with more torque multiplication, which is possible with stator mods. Those of you that race a lot could benefit with higher stall with more multiplication.
This is standard issue stuff in the turbo diesel truck world. Should be possible, heck the most expensive thing is probably the tech time to pull the tranny.
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From: Cary, IL
2003 CL55 Kompressor Horizon Blue Metallic
Another possible option just occured to me . . .
"Back in the day" the "cheap" way to get a little more stall out of a V8 F-body (Camaro/Firebird) was to put a stock S-10 pickup converter in it. Stay with me here!! The V6 in the S-10 had a higher stall converter to get it to stall "correctly" behind the smaller motor, so when it was placed behind the larger V8, poof: higher stall. This only worked because both vehicles shared a common transmission.
NOW: is there another car we can pirate a converter from like a E500 or E430, etc?? If it shares the same 5-speed transmission and it'll take the torque, it should work and provide a higher stall behind the E55k motor.
"Back in the day" the "cheap" way to get a little more stall out of a V8 F-body (Camaro/Firebird) was to put a stock S-10 pickup converter in it. Stay with me here!! The V6 in the S-10 had a higher stall converter to get it to stall "correctly" behind the smaller motor, so when it was placed behind the larger V8, poof: higher stall. This only worked because both vehicles shared a common transmission.
NOW: is there another car we can pirate a converter from like a E500 or E430, etc?? If it shares the same 5-speed transmission and it'll take the torque, it should work and provide a higher stall behind the E55k motor.
I'm guessing the E55 torque convertor is stronger and tighter than the lower torque V8', but either way I would change the lock-up clutch material if I modified the TC.
A modified CL65 might be the ticket, but I heard a rumor that the bellhousing may need to be bigger. But then again, for all I know it is that same piece. I would expect it to be bigger though.
IMC, the Germans do their TC's in mm instead of inches, so a "260" would be roughly a 10".
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From: Palm Beach Gardens, Fla.
2004 E55
Though it may only be 2 or 3 tenths... I believe gears will help our beasts more for everyday driving than anything. The car would be more responsive in aggressive driving, and 2nd and 3rd gears would be more "torquey" around town driving.....that would be FUN!!
At the strip.....if we solve the "hook-up" issues.....going thru 3 1/2 gears
(w/3.07 rear)I believe will get us down the track faster than 2 1/2 gears that we presently have. Yes, we lose marginally having to shift 1 extra time....
but 2nd coming out @ 72 and 3rd @ 115 I do feel will help us "build-up" speed much faster......hence a lower et!!............Just my .02
At the strip.....if we solve the "hook-up" issues.....going thru 3 1/2 gears
(w/3.07 rear)I believe will get us down the track faster than 2 1/2 gears that we presently have. Yes, we lose marginally having to shift 1 extra time....
but 2nd coming out @ 72 and 3rd @ 115 I do feel will help us "build-up" speed much faster......hence a lower et!!............Just my .02
Out Of Control!!
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From: San Diego
2015 S212
I have a friend that tried a different diff (and different gearing). Obviously, you don't mind modifying software, but he ran into many issues with when and how the ESP kicked in and had to basically get a cutom ECU. It was a costly endeavor, so make sure you go with someone who knows what they are doing. Fit alone isn't everything.
The cams, airbox, and exhaust are the best for gained power. Cams will help more with top end, though so that is true. The gearing will take that top end and make it low end, so to speak. Another thought is to look at your overall rear wheel diameter. If yoiu went bigger than stock, you raised your gearing and could go the other way. Smaller diameter, but wider tires will add low end easy.
Last thing, I have been playing with Cone air filters. They add massive low end, but kill top end and have heat soak, so it depends what you want. Another guy I know is adding turbos to his exhaust system, causing a nice pull just post the cats.
I like the convertor mod idea. I'm in on getting someone who knows what they are doing to look into that.
Las last thing...unsprung weight. Get lighter rear rotors!! Hehe.
The cams, airbox, and exhaust are the best for gained power. Cams will help more with top end, though so that is true. The gearing will take that top end and make it low end, so to speak. Another thought is to look at your overall rear wheel diameter. If yoiu went bigger than stock, you raised your gearing and could go the other way. Smaller diameter, but wider tires will add low end easy.
Last thing, I have been playing with Cone air filters. They add massive low end, but kill top end and have heat soak, so it depends what you want. Another guy I know is adding turbos to his exhaust system, causing a nice pull just post the cats.
I like the convertor mod idea. I'm in on getting someone who knows what they are doing to look into that.
Las last thing...unsprung weight. Get lighter rear rotors!! Hehe.
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Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Cary, IL
2003 CL55 Kompressor Horizon Blue Metallic
Though it may only be 2 or 3 tenths... I believe gears will help our beasts more for everyday driving than anything. The car would be more responsive in aggressive driving, and 2nd and 3rd gears would be more "torquey" around town driving.....that would be FUN!!
At the strip.....if we solve the "hook-up" issues.....going thru 3 1/2 gears
(w/3.07 rear)I believe will get us down the track faster than 2 1/2 gears that we presently have. Yes, we lose marginally having to shift 1 extra time....
but 2nd coming out @ 72 and 3rd @ 115 I do feel will help us "build-up" speed much faster......hence a lower et!!............Just my .02
At the strip.....if we solve the "hook-up" issues.....going thru 3 1/2 gears
(w/3.07 rear)I believe will get us down the track faster than 2 1/2 gears that we presently have. Yes, we lose marginally having to shift 1 extra time....
but 2nd coming out @ 72 and 3rd @ 115 I do feel will help us "build-up" speed much faster......hence a lower et!!............Just my .02
If there is a computer/electronics issue, with the taller tires on my CL I might have freedom to stagger front to back and hack the rear wheel speed sensor. The E55, with the shorter tire, might not have as much room to work.
Speed to speed, gear to gear, with 6500 RPM versus the V12 turbo 6000 RPM, 3.07 gears help bridge the torque gap on the street.
My biggest beef with the 2.65 is that I really can't have fun running the car through the gears on the freeway without busting speed limits big time.
Last edited by mclarenm8d; Nov 16, 2006 at 12:32 AM.
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From: London, UK
No longer stock '06 E55, A3 3.2 Quattro, GLE 400d, R107 280SL, Golf Polo
I think a 2.82 is a nice compromise on gearing ... gives around
5.5mph less in 2nd, maxes out at 81mph
7mph less in 3rd, maxes out at 125mph
11mph less in 4th, maxes out at 177mph
14mph less in 5th maxes out at 213mph (which was too long anyway).
all with 285/30/19 rubber @ redline - so its perfect on the qtr unless u are a rocketship). In first u only drop 3mph... thats not so bad ... ??
Think this is a great compromise ... I am looking for better 3rd-4th-5th gear performance ... thats where our beasts suffer the most especially against the M's. E63 has a 2.82 as does the SL55 - finding a swap out or gear should be dead easy. Thats my next mod after ASP pulley which arrives today!!
BTW: I would not touch the TC on these cars - but thats just me.
5.5mph less in 2nd, maxes out at 81mph
7mph less in 3rd, maxes out at 125mph
11mph less in 4th, maxes out at 177mph
14mph less in 5th maxes out at 213mph (which was too long anyway).
all with 285/30/19 rubber @ redline - so its perfect on the qtr unless u are a rocketship). In first u only drop 3mph... thats not so bad ... ??
Think this is a great compromise ... I am looking for better 3rd-4th-5th gear performance ... thats where our beasts suffer the most especially against the M's. E63 has a 2.82 as does the SL55 - finding a swap out or gear should be dead easy. Thats my next mod after ASP pulley which arrives today!!
BTW: I would not touch the TC on these cars - but thats just me.
Last edited by stevebez; Nov 16, 2006 at 03:39 AM.
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From: school west coast-Summer Internships Va and Bmore
E55 (for sale if the right offer comes along)...too many others to list
OMG....GTA23109a & Vrus checking into a torque converter?
I would be happy to put up the money for the R&D!
Vic,
I would love to get the Cams, but I am worried about the idle issues. My tuner is two hours away! I can't wait to see the results from the second install. What about the Shrick cams with gears? Throw in a torque converter and I am in heaven.
Ken,
I am with you buddy. I do think the gears would help the launch at the track. Even with all my power at the wheels, I am neck and neck off the line with cars making less power.
Jangy,
The guy said the same thing at Powerchip about doing a custom ECU tune. Either way....I see that coming. I guess the cool thing for me is their ability to do that! From what I was told only four people in the tuning world are capable of doing something like that, and one of them works for Powerchip. Only 1 hr. away from me! They are the only company outside Renntech that has built instant compatiable software.
mclarenm8d,
Would the gears from the S-class also work in my car? If not, what car should I take them from?
I would be happy to put up the money for the R&D!
Vic,
I would love to get the Cams, but I am worried about the idle issues. My tuner is two hours away! I can't wait to see the results from the second install. What about the Shrick cams with gears? Throw in a torque converter and I am in heaven.
Ken,
I am with you buddy. I do think the gears would help the launch at the track. Even with all my power at the wheels, I am neck and neck off the line with cars making less power.
Jangy,
The guy said the same thing at Powerchip about doing a custom ECU tune. Either way....I see that coming. I guess the cool thing for me is their ability to do that! From what I was told only four people in the tuning world are capable of doing something like that, and one of them works for Powerchip. Only 1 hr. away from me!
They are the only company outside Renntech that has built instant compatiable software. mclarenm8d,
Would the gears from the S-class also work in my car? If not, what car should I take them from?
Thread Starter
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From: school west coast-Summer Internships Va and Bmore
E55 (for sale if the right offer comes along)...too many others to list
I think a 2.82 is a nice compromise on gearing ... gives around
5.5mph less in 2nd, maxes out at 81mph
7mph less in 3rd, maxes out at 125mph
11mph less in 4th, maxes out at 177mph
14mph less in 5th maxes out at 213mph (which was too long anyway).
all with 285/30/19 rubber @ redline - so its perfect on the qtr unless u are a rocketship). In first u only drop 3mph... thats not so bad ... ??
Think this is a great compromise ... I am looking for better 3rd-4th-5th gear performance ... thats where our beasts suffer the most especially against the M's. E63 has a 2.82 as does the SL55 - finding a swap out or gear should be dead easy. Thats my next mod after ASP pulley which arrives today!!
BTW: I would not touch the TC on these cars - but thats just me.
5.5mph less in 2nd, maxes out at 81mph
7mph less in 3rd, maxes out at 125mph
11mph less in 4th, maxes out at 177mph
14mph less in 5th maxes out at 213mph (which was too long anyway).
all with 285/30/19 rubber @ redline - so its perfect on the qtr unless u are a rocketship). In first u only drop 3mph... thats not so bad ... ??
Think this is a great compromise ... I am looking for better 3rd-4th-5th gear performance ... thats where our beasts suffer the most especially against the M's. E63 has a 2.82 as does the SL55 - finding a swap out or gear should be dead easy. Thats my next mod after ASP pulley which arrives today!!
BTW: I would not touch the TC on these cars - but thats just me.
Oops I missed this one. So you are saying take the gears from the SL55? What modifications would need to be done if any? I am still learning about gears.
Wouldn't the 3.07 off the S-class be better?BTW...I think we are all in need of some serious mod bug therapy! lol
Last edited by BENZGal; Nov 16, 2006 at 11:08 AM.
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R35 GT-R, EvoX
I run a 75 wet shot of NOS in my CLK500. I've gone through about 4 bottles so far with no problems at all (besides some tranny problems which could have been caused by the N20). http://www.automasterofwestchester.com/ did the install. Although the shop is in NY, you can call them and ask them about my car, I'm sure they will give you some info and help you out. Good luck.
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SL65 AMG
I am with you on the torque converter idea. I tried that idea a month ago and came up empty handed. That would be the perfect solution for me. Do you need to upgrade to an engine management software to change the torque converter?
I am able to get the power to the ground with my quaife and DR's, but I can't drive around like that all the time. This is also my daily driver. LOL You can't take corners on those damn things when running on 19's.
Do the cams including the SLR cams cause you to loose a little low end power? At this point, anything on the top end is a waste of money for me.
I am also running into bad luck with the NOS. The only guy I trust in S. Cali is busy building race cars. You guys have no idea how hard it is to find a MB NOS expert! I think it's time to look out of state.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Please keep us updated on the cams.
Do you need to upgrade to an engine management software to change the torque converter? I am able to get the power to the ground with my quaife and DR's, but I can't drive around like that all the time. This is also my daily driver. LOL You can't take corners on those damn things when running on 19's.
Do the cams including the SLR cams cause you to loose a little low end power? At this point, anything on the top end is a waste of money for me.
I am also running into bad luck with the NOS. The only guy I trust in S. Cali is busy building race cars. You guys have no idea how hard it is to find a MB NOS expert! I think it's time to look out of state.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Please keep us updated on the cams.
Call malcom from Hi Tech, I talked to him on Friday aboiut a 100 shot in my car. They have a 75 shot on the E55 and he said it is all stealth so no one can pop the hood and see it and the bottle is hidden as well. He seems very smart and also has a very nice intercooler set up that helped with extra power. He runs an E55 so he knows his stuff. He also doesnt just add nos he re works the ecu so when the nos kicks in the timing changes making it a very safe set up according to him. May be worth checking out.
