ChicagoX

Best-idea-ever.

With regards to the cylinder coatings, you might want to contact SwainTech. They have several different systems for different apps. (cylinders/heads/intake/exhaust)

I've seen similar motors (one coated, one not) make the same HP with 2 psi less boost on the coated motor.

bleek

Mad TKD The coating the benz applies is an anti-wear coating/friction reducing coating. Removing is will not actually hurt anything, as steel sleeves coated actually make things even better. With piston skirts and sleeves coated wear becomes minimal. The bigger concern is the actual bore spacing the cylinders are very close together, so making sure the sleeves have enough material around them to support them was my only concern. Clearancing the crank shaft and such is not much of a concern, as i don't have to worry about smaller base circle camshafts or having to raise cam location as our cams are located in our heads, so my only limiting factor is the block machining and i believe we will be ok!

ChicagoX, yeah man having a CNC program available makes replacing ro duplicating the heads alot easier! Obviously my cylinder porter can do another set, but the turn around time would be 1/3 of doing it by hand. Heck i got the hard stuff outta the way with doing the moulds, figuring which casting to go with and figuring where the most gains are, so now that these are done, it should make life easier for future sets.

Yeah i like swaintech, they coated some pistons for me on some of my nitrous engines, and it makes a world of difference, didn't melt pistons as often. I also looked into polydyn coatings as well, they do alot of nascar teams stuff.

See my theory with things is not to take short cuts, especially not with a $100k car! I prefer spending time finding out what the best coatings are, best valves, best porter, etc.... See you have to sometimes ask yourself where your saving? Do you save now and risk hurting a motor down the line, or spend now and know your not gonna have broken parts later on! Lots of coatings are available, you can even buy stuff and put it on yourself and bake the parts in the oven, but are you really saving? Cutting corners with internal engine parts is a guarantee for disaster!

Grumpy666

What? You're not sending the crank out for cryogenic conditioning? What a hack.

chiromikey

lol, i was going to say something but i ussually get the response when i bring that up.

bleek

Damn you Grumpy! Damn you! LOL! Man how did i know the Grumpy man was gonna get me on something! Guys let this be a lesson! See Grumpy is on point, you have to think like this to get the most out of what you got, you can't leave any rock unturned! Also lesson number two is you get what you pay for! When you work with successful companies, certain things become turn key! The crank company i was using for the stroker motor is Winberg, and for those in the know, know! But for those who don't, they make cranks for pro-stock teams, Nextel cup teams, basically anyone successful will use there cranks! With that being the case, Winberg is turn key, they not only offer some of the best cranks, materials, and complete service! I never explained it cause i took things to a different extreme, but not only does Winberg condition there cranks with cryogenics, they also stress relieve all there racing cranks with a low vibration process before they send the cranks for cryogenics.

Pay attention to detail guys, there are many things i haven't touched on but it doesn't mean you should over look! Many things as simple as head stud, billet main caps, custom Fluidampr, to cryogenics! Heck if i could i'd use low tension rings if i could fit a dry-sump oiling system in the car! If your gonna take the time to do things, do things once the first time around!

Guys take the time to listen to Grumpy and Vadim and people in the know, when you talk to people that have the attitude of "ahhh that's good enough!" turn around and walk away, attention to detail is what allowed champions to be champions! But also remember to be realistic Many things that i am doing is over kill on the average street car, so make sure you know what you want to do before spending the money, budget wisely!

bleek

Schools in! Drag Racing 101

OK guys alittle off topic from my cylinder heads, but equally important! Today's topic:

Traction and Gearing!

OK so lets look at our cars and how we can take advantge of what we got! But first off you have to understand how are cars make power and payattention to big time turbo and blower guys!

In a perfect world i would have a front to back car with a four-link and never have to worry to much about compensating for lack of traction! With our cars it's different!

Blower cars and turbo cars make insane amounts of torque especially the turbo guys, so now let's see if people have learned anything from watching turbo cars go. I'm gonna use NMCA SuperStreet cars as an example! These cars are limited to a 10.5" wide tire, but the cars make upwards of 1800-2000+++ hp!!! I've set up many of these cars, and one of things you'll notice is how the turbo cars leave! The cars will still do a 6.90 pass at over 200mph, but they make up for in from mid track!

The cars will leave like a dog! Huge reason why, with a limited tire and torque numbers that are out of this world, we have to walk the cars out of the whole, and then apply full power! Also with really really big gears(numerically), you'll blow the tires off too! So what we do is stay with a smaller gear instead of a typical 4.10 or 4.56 that you would use in a nitrous or N/A car! The bigger gear will cause rpm's to rise to quickly and we get into traction and tire shake conditions!

Did i lose anyone yet? So with most turbo and blower cars we try not to turn huge rpms, that's why we go with a smaller gear and walk the car out of the hole!

So now your gonna ask me what the hell does this have to do with our cars? Ok now look, lots of problems take place already with our cars and traction! Putting a bigger gear in like a 2.82 instead of sticking with our 2.6 something gear is only gonna cause more problems! With the mount of torque our cars make and a bigger gear, traction will become a bigger problem! Rpm's come up too fast, you get into the power band quicker= smoking tires!

OK so now lets argue about putting better tires on the car! Theoretically bigger gear good tire means faster car! This is totally true, but only in a race type car with aftermarket super strong parts and super light weight chassis!!!!!!!!!

We have stock parts and a 4000+lb car, so what do you think is gonna happen with 700-800ft/lb being put to the ground with a slick, big gear, and 4000lb to our stock parts? U-joints, drive shafts, axles, etc........

You guys seeing what i'm getting at? Now for me i'm gonna stick with a smaller 2.6ty gear and a drag radial and walk the car out of the hole, wait 30ft out when traction isn't a concern anymore and then let it hang! Remember the hardest part is the intial shock to the tires, once you get rolling, the parts don't feel the same stress, and the tires don't have to grip as hard.

Just alittle food for thought, i know there's alot more that i can explain, but this simple little lesson should help out please feel free to ask questions. Grumpy, Vadim, anyone else please jump in and add to this if you like.

Hope this helps!

chiromikey

i think you're spot on in your analysis. i think slicks are a bad idea unless you're rear suspension, half shafts, drive shaft, u-joints, etc have been upgraded...and i don't think we can take advantage of 2.82's without slicks.

imho, i believe the biggest problem we face upon our launch compared to "other" race cars is the throttle-by-wire system. the ecu has WAY too much control over what is actually happening between the time we go from brake to full throttle. if someone could properly rewrite that part of the ecu software, we might begin to realize the possibilities.

Grumpy666

To minimize parts breakage, you want the rear suspension and tires to store some of the energy from the initial torque hit, and then slowly release it back to the car. If a 4-link is set up properly, the rear of the car will actually rise (instead of squat). This rising loads the rear suspension and stores energy, which will then be released back to the car as it moves forward. For the tires, you want to use a high aspect ratio (small wheel diameter). The taller the sidewall, the more it will try to wrinkle (energy storage) when the torque hits. It also releases the energy as the car begins to move forward. These two mechanisms help to buffer the effect of high torque loads.

Your comments Re: gearing are basically correct, but not totally applicable to this car. Going from a 2.6x to a 2.8x will put the car through the traps right at the peak HP point, which is a good thing. The 8% change in gearing will probably not cause any additional launch concerns. However, going to a gear shorter than 2.8x could cause increased traction issues and will probably require an additional gear change, both of which can adversely affect ET.

bleek

I fully agree with the Grump man, with 8% difference not effecting too much and putting the car into peak power at the end of the quarter is good.

My concern is with my car and other modded cars. In a stock car i would go with 2.82 and a slick, the extra 8% would help, but with a car with more torque is where my concerns lie, bringing in power too soon, is either gonna melt the tires or break our stock parts. Also if we melt the tires and spin we then get into the situation of now moving the car past it's peak hp/rpm from the inital traction problem. With perfect conditions and the car hooking, i'm all for more gear, but what i am trying to say is realistically how often will we have those perfect conditions, so that's where my racing brain kicks in and says "let me compensate for less then ideal conditions and use a bit less gear so i can go down the track!"

Like i said and Grumpy says, i wish in a perfect world i did have a 4 link and adjustable shocks, to control compression and rebound, but guess what we need to work with what we got.

Here's some food for thought for traction, get a glass or C/F hood, better weight transfer and less weight!

Grumpy good **** my friend, keeping my gears grinding, now your getting all eight firing for me, what should we get into next? Oh yeah don't say fuel injection, cause i know nothing!!!!!!!!!!!! Now carburetors, i'm your huckleberry! LOL! Good stuff Grumpy!

PTE

Dear Professor Bleek & you too Grumpy:

As Mercedes owners . we are very limited in what we have available to us for, aftermarket performance parts that we can purchase. AE Camshaft OEM SLR & Schrick. Heads ? . Pistons , Wiesco. Rear End gear ratio selection. DiD I miss any?

So you, like myself ,have had to take a different approch. . Trying to move some of this very usefull torque . away from the lower rpm band . trade it off to some upper rpm band HP. It is bad enough with a N/A motor , difficult with a blower motor. I found this to be helpful on both launching & car control coming out of a corner. Cams help a bunch. in this case. But indexing them is not a option with the way the upper timing chain sprocket engages the cam snout/ drive slots , with its lugs. Not much there to make a minor degree adjustment, in cam timing. While I had my engine on the stand. I pulled the front of the motor off to have the look at away to move the crank timing chain drive gear?. I was thinking maybe 3* advance (perferred) or retard if someone what to put some of the torque . back closer to stock, With a specialty cam . (if one ever came about). How about a indexable gear as a Aftermarket Piece, (Victor?)
Your head work looks very good. The Ideal of more intake area & larger intake valves, should help cylinder fill. . What kinda worries me . Is that if you have a better cylinder fill, you also have a higher dynamic compression ratio. Static check with a compression gauge or volume check by measurements will not change. Thats why a good dyno and a person that can change timing in just the upper rpm bands ,not lower the whole curve. will help kept the motor from Detonation. Not just throw some fuel at it to cool things off. Thats where a good software writer ,That has figured out the encryption , Gets his money. And is worth it.

The next area is the Exhaust Port. The sharp turn at the bottom / floor needs some real attention. The bowl looks great. I hope there is enough material in the head at the bottom radius. I sawed an old 4.3 head into cross sectons at several areas . That was enough to convinice me to stay away at that area. I'm glad you brought to light the differences in the heads. 4.3, 50 & 5.5 That alone . was great Info.
Thanks ___PTE___

NitrogenBalance

...continue with the head difference 4.3/5.0/5.5. I know understand that the 4.3 heads are more Nicole Ricci and less Star Jones than the 5.5 heads. Anyone know if this applys to the AMG 4.3's also??

I know that 90% of my block is 430 but I wonder if the heads were an area that AMG differed from the the regular 430. Or do I also have the 430 castings with less room.

I'm determined to yank my heads this winter, yet if 5.5 heads are truly a better more durable casting, I think I'm gonna look into sourcing a set. Assuming they bolt right up the the essentially same M113 V8.

Carry on gentleman........

bleek

PTE, man i ain't no professor or anything, just trying to do my part to help out.

See the huge problem is the fact that we own an expensive car, or actually a Benz! BMW are expensive, but they have always been know to be more sporty or more performance oriented. So companies are will to invest in R&D and spend money manufacturing custom parts.

With our cars there are only a handful or guys that are truly willing to spend and that cause price to go through the roof, as one off parts are alot more expensive then mass produced kits for a civic.

BUt at the end of the day, if we're willing to spend, anything is possible. We can get any rear gear ratio we want if we sent a set of our gears as blanks to Strange, or Mark Williams, but again what are costs gonna be for one off stuff. I thought about aftermarket half shafts, axles and everything, but once that is taken care of, what about the chassis, and sub-frames.

See i'm trying to push my car to the max and still have it be streetable and still look like a Benz.

PTE, great idea with the cam timing, now here's where my concerns are, on our race cars i can adjust the valves to change rpm band, and i can adjust the clutch to determine when the power comes in, but in our street cars there are so many variables that make it difficult to truly help us take advantage of cam timing and such, but every little bit counts, and my hats off to you for stepping up and trying it!

Here's an option, send a set of cam gears out to a cam company or a specific places that makes cam gears and they could easily duplicate it out of aluminum and then make it adjustable. That should allow you to advance or retard your cam timing at least 6-9degres either way. All i can say is dyno time, and rent the track out!

I hear you on the cylinder fill and compression, and that is why I specified to Brandon about tayloring the ecu to everything that i will be doing! See our ecu may be somewhat limited, and i don't know if thr program guys can actually adjust the timing according to rpm. I wish i had a MSD digital 7 where i can adjust timing per cylinder and adjust it to rpm as well. So here lies my racing brain again, i have to say to myself do i want to go rounds or set the world record? So where i would go with timing is optimized at topend, and maybe lose alittle bit down low. If the motor starts detonating up high you start hurting stuff, if your not getting the most timing at low rpm, you just make a few less ponies. That is also why i'm gonna set a second ecu for race gas, and track conditions, that way the car isn't all confused with i'm cruising on the streets.

Ahh yes the every so important exhaust port, see people don't realize you don't just take a die grinder and start hacking! You have to understand how the air will flow, and understand turbulance and velocity! If you don't shape the port right, the air can literally roll over itself and actually make the port flow less! That's why i spent the countless dollars and hours with the right guy and the right castings. PTE the short side can pick up alot of flow, but from our sonictesting and cut aways, i believe there's a water jacket right under there, so there is only so much we could reshape there, but we are still waiting for the valves to finish that area. We also gonna raise the roof of the port a bit to compensate for not being able to work the short side too much, that should allow the air more chance to turn and not cause the turbulance.

OK now to answer NitrogenBalance(did you get my PM) and PTE, the truth is i am assuming the 430 heads will be like the 500's, so my honest truth from me is i would try to stay away from those casting if you could, but again it depends on how far you want to go. We can still get 430/500 heads to flow, i only stated the differences before because i know there are scammers out there that will try to sell you fake stuff for real.

Nitro like i said in the pm, let's try your heads and max them out, it will save you a bunch of money on the castings, but on the flip side if you max out a set of real 55 castings, you can use those on anything, so if you switch to a 500, or even a 55 later on the potential is always there. Look at it like this, do you plan on playing with these cars for a while or do you want to just play for now, if you say long term go with 55 casting, if not lets max out your heads. So to answer your question Nitro, i would think 430 heads amg or not are gonna be the same.

Hope that helps a bit, please feel free to ask questions, the more you understand about our cars, the less mistakes and more money you'll save, don't just listen to people that talk but can't back what they say up, take the time to research and work with experienced people.

PTE, if your serious about the cam gears, drop me a pm!

Grumpy666

If I'm interpreting this correctly, you have this backwards. Advancing a cam moves the torque band lower in the RPM range, retarding it moves it higher.

The dynamic compressioin ratio you're referring to is known as cylinder pressure. The ratio cannot change w/o a volume change, so it cannot be dynamic. And your detonation statement is also backwards. Detonation is more prevalent in the lower RPM range when the engine is under a load.

PTE

maybe I was not Clear.(GRUMPY!!) Maybe we should both take a refresher coarse at one of those top 5 Universities you attended. I've walked the Walk. I've got way to many hours on a FROUDE eddy Current dyno. I know what Dynamic is .END OF STORY.

No malicious name Calling with the Professor thing. I was actually complementing you guy's . Great Info Bleek. You are taking it to the next Step. I stopped after I Sawed the head into cross sectons.

As Harvey Crane once quoted to me. Don't modify your lawn mower or your daily RIDE. Thank You ___PTE___

bleek

WTF just happened, guys this is one of the crappy things about doing posts, **** get taken the wrong way.

PTE you are a stand up guy, and you got brians my friend , not like those people that just talk and talk and show no results. We are all just trying to work together to make things more efficient!

It's ok to agree to disagree, cause that's what keeps us thinking. If i posted something that is wrong, cool, cause that allows me to learn.

PTE i don't think the Grump was taking any shots at you bro, i for one love the input and i am super flatered and honored that you would join in on this thread. Remember there's more then one way to Disneyland. PTE please keep adding input, and for what it's worth i know you were complementing not taking shots, and for that my friend i thank you.

Guys we all i have ideas, i am only sharing my experiences with you, maybe in a lab or in perfect conditions my ways might not make the most power or be the most ideal, but i don't live in a perfect world so i adjust my strategies to reflect that. making power on paper is one thing, adapting to a situation is another.

Grumpy, keep on my **** bro, you keep me on my toes, please guys don't start taking this **** personal. Crap i left my ego and pride at the door, do you not think i can call alot of people out on alot of ****, but at the end of the day real recognize real! Grumpy, PTE, Vadim, and many others you all are real to me, so let's get back to making some real HP!

Much love and respect to the both of you!

P.s. PTE like i said to Vadim, you bad asses were thinking this **** up before i even started playing with my car, so my hats off to you and the other true pioneers! Drop me a pm bro, let's F*ck this **** up!

AMG 17GT

NitrogenBalance

So does anyone care to also share your opinion on porting a set of heads and retaining the original valves,springs, etc...The car is very well cared for with 60K on the clock 98'year.

My plans for the vehicle include opening up both the intake and exhaust sides of the motor a good amount with increasing boost as well. With that said I don't want the heads to become a bottleneck within the system. I also understand that my current heads are most likely opptimized for an N/A application so there is room for improvement in that regard also. I just have a feeling it will open things up good and make the system that much more effecient. I don't want to mill down my S/C pully just for the sake of increasing manifold pressure the heads can't digest.

This head porting process is big on my list, however I also have a budget as I just bought another vehicle for snow and towing.

...also, as stated above 43/50/55 share the same casting #'s. How does one tell which is which without having a 55 head available to physically compare??

Any pics of the progress???

Mad TKD

Nitro

I wouldnt think you would need to upgrade/change the valve springs unless you plan on raising the rev limit. But I would change them out anyway on tear down and replace with stockers for piece of mind

bleek

Nitro, my thoughts on using your old heads, and parts are this, by all means go ahead! It just comes down to how much you want to max it out, on budget you can get away with still making good power with stock parts. My only thoughts are spending a bit more to get the most out of it so you don't have to do it again later when you want more power or longevity.

Whom ever you want working on the heads, make sure they go over them, make sure the guides are ok, check to make sure the valves are in good shape, and you should be able to get away with just putting new seals on and that's it.

Now comes the concern! 430/500 heads have smaller valves depending on year, the 430 should have smaller valves regardless of year and the 500 heads only have the bigger valve in 2001 and new heads. Also 430/500 heads use a single conical(bee-hive) spring where as with 55 heads use cylindrical double springs. The are no real sources that tell you how to tell the difference between the heads, it's not like there are special casting bumps or numbers that let you know there 55 heads, or at least i haven't found the pattern yet. The only way i can tell is the double springs and bigger valve.

I don't have the spec on the valve size here, but i guess you can ask your parts guy to look up your valve size and see if it's the same part# on a 55, t least if they are it's worth using your stock valves!

Good point, see upgrading valve spring is two-fold, rpm is one and valve lift and duration is another, if your going super mild on the camshaft, i don't have a problem with stock springs. But i do agree with MadTKD about putting a brand new set of stock ones on there, it's piece of mind, and since the heads are off, take advantage of it, heck you got 60k on her, the springs might be a bit tired, it's worth the piece of mind to me!

Still waiting to hear from ferrea on the valves, i got the SLR coolers at my mailbox in Buffalo just need to go pick them up, also got my bigger pulley, so once i pick things up i'll post picks of the coolers, and the valves will probably be in by then, and it's off to Colorado.

I will put the pulley on before sending the car out and i will try to post the dyno results of before and after results of a bigger pulley(bigger then kleemann) on a K4, and i will actually post factual dyno results to back what i say.

Hope that helps Nitro.

bleek

OK guys finally an update!!! Check'em out!


More to come!

bleek

Here we go guys! I'm super pumped up now about these heads!

I'll do a quick re-cap in a minute about what i've done, and what's been involved, but for now check out these killer custom Ferrea Valves.

They are 1mm bigger on the intake and 0.5mm bigger on the exhaust. Didn't want to go any bigger yet, as valve shrouding and piston to valve clearances come into play.

I will also discuss differences between real 55 castings and 430/500 castings.

Also i will get into what things to becareful of when getting port work done, and how to tell whether or not the person providing the work knows what they are talking about.

For now check out these beauties!

EUROTEK//AMG

Ferrea make the best valvetrain parts...that what I have on my turbo M3

2MANYCARS

Agreed, have them in my EVO and WRX.

bleek

Nuff said! But i could get into DelWest Valves and stuff, but sometimes certain things become over kill!

***Key Things to Look Out For***

1. Take the time to speak to your cylinder porter/machinist! Talk with him make sure he is willing to spend time with you to talk about what he's gonna do, have him explain the whole process, from gasket matching, cc'ing runners, making moulds, explaining valve jobs, to flowing the heads. If the guy can't sit down and explain each operation to you in detail or find time to do so, don't spend the money with them!

2. Make sure they are willing to do the complete operation! Some pretend porters offer only partial service, ie, just only offering porting, not willing to work on your valvetrain, only answering questions with more confusion or telling you there's no need for him to reassemble the heads. Your heads should come back and be ready to bolt in!!! If they only ask you to send your heads bare, turn away, if they are not willing to check valve guide clearance, not willing to check spring pressure, etc... walk away! If they have the attitude of saying just get your mechanic to reassemble this and that, or find a guy in your area to do something, that tells you the guy doesn't know what he's doing and is trying to cover his own *** by getting other people to finish your heads, that way he can say your guy screwed up! A real engine builder, or porter, or machinist, tuner does not like other people touching there work! They are proud of there work and they don't want someone else to screw things up, that's why real performance guys do not let anything leave the shop if it's not 100% complete, because they are actually willing to be responsible for there work! When you bolt up there complete heads if something is wrong they can actually pin point it and not redirect blame! You should be able to send your heads complete and receive them back complete and fully ported, and know that they are like brand new, fully pressure checked and ready to bolt on!

3. Find out if they have ever work on Mercedes heads, how comfortable they are with working on them. Ask them how many sets have been done. Experience and reputation go along way, don't just go with someone that talks a big talk, but knows nothing about turning a wrench.

4. You get what you pay for! Normally this is the rule of thumb, when it comes to internal engine work, cutting corners only costs you in the long run.

Please feel free to pm me and find out the finer details to what is involved here, or ask me if someone is pulling your leg or not. Ask before you make a mistake and have someone pull the wool over your eyes!

Take the time to do your heads right and you will benefit more then you understand!

My K4 now makes well over 640+hp, and with the heads SLR coolers, pulleys, custom cams, transmission upgrade, and ecu tune, the car will be well over 700+ with out breaking a sweat!

Check out this pic! We gained a huge amount on the exhaust side, we were able to shape the runner to almost have a straight path into the header. The runner still isn't finished, we should still pick up a bunch of flow from the valve job and blending the bowl area! Enjoy!

vixapphire

what a fascinating thread this is. Bleek, you are kicking my *** with your insane passion for powermad glory!

i screwed around with a 1968 charger back about 13 years ago, and used to fix and maintain my old '86 volvo 740 gle wagon in the 90's, but since then i've been one of those guys who tends to talk without lifting a wrench. i don't pretend to know anything about all the high tech performance ****e you all are into here and in the high-dollar mod-kit echelon, but it's nice to vicariously experience your taking it to the limit.

i've got a gorgeous mint '73 280SE 4.5 being shipped across country at the moment, which will probably afford some underhood wrenching from time to time. however, being someone whose preferred "wrenching" is in his recording studio, i hope my 'new' car keeps its wrenching needs to a minimum!

i can't wait to see how your project continues taking shape. enjoy it!

v