NitrogenBalance

Bleek, what are your thoughts on pully/belt type. I see that some use the gilmer cog tooth style belts with a special pully for the pump and crank pully. Some use ribbed serpentine type and mount it as you would an accesory like power steering pump etc..I've got a pefect space on my pass side that would require a longer serpentine belt and an idler pully of some spec..I'm thinking available space has alot to do with this?? Any benifit from using one over the other??

Lastly, where do you plan on dumping the CC fumes?? I was planning on pushing mine to atmoshpere cause I'm an A*s. We don't want to re-introduce them into the charge as it would contaminate it. I saw one example that plumbed it into the exhaust to burn off. Kinda like an exhaust evac system with a pump behind it. This would be a cleaner option I would think.

bleek

Nitro, i like the gilmer belts best! With the belts having cogs, you don't run as much tension on them, thus in turn puts less pressure on what ever you are running it off of. In regards to pullies and stuff, just make sure what ever style of pulley(cog, serp,V-type) you go with, make sure not to mix and match. Most places make the pulley combo's to spin the pump a certain rpm, so even if we need something custom, just make sure you find out what the diameter of the pullies are so that you'll keep everything spinning at the right rpm.

I'll probably end up just venting right into a catch can, it's clean it's simple, and yes karma will probably lick me down for it also! Welding a pipe fitting into the exhaust and plumbing the outlet of the pump into the exhaust would be best.

OK now that i got everyone focused, let me make your lives easier!!! Did you all know they make electric vacuum pumps? They used them for the old hot rods that ran power brakes but didn't create enough vacuum. But now they've modified the pumps to work as an evac pump as well! No more mounting problems!!!!! So who wants to go hunt this down and post some pics?

ChicagoX

Or you can run a small 12v motor gilmer-belted to the evac pump. Two brackets, but no messing w/ the sepentine system.....

NitrogenBalance

Thought about that myself also! Mounting could be soooo much easier for the single reason you mention. I've found some 12V motors intended for running a water pump from moroso, mr.gasket, summit, etc..bout $50-$90..I have two concerns with this setup.

1. Is the 12V motor good for continued use or is it intended for on/off type driving that a true drag car would see. I personally have only seen these 12V water pump motors in serious drag cars. Which has me wondering about prolonged use.

2. The 12V motors most likely spin at one speed. This has me wondering about the onset or building of vacuum in relation how fast you spin the pump. Running the pump with the serpetine system would build vacuum along with the increase in engine RPM and resultant CC pressure. If the 12V's have one speed than the vacuum applied will not increase in relation to RPM/CC pressure. Is this good or bad?? I'm not really sure. I would think that a gradule increase in vacuum would be better.

I love the fact that I'm getting info on this. I was goin solo.

ChicagoX

1) They have both intermittent and continuous use versions; look for at least a 2500 hour rating. 5000 is better. I ran a heavy-duty Meziere unit daily for 3 years with no problems. Cost was about $250.

2) You will need to see 10-15" of vacuum (mercury) on a race system. As long as your gauge indicates enough vacuum at high RPM's, I don't think it will be an issue. You could run an appropriately-rated potentiometer switch to adjust the voltage and the speed of the pump. Dial it down for less RPM's, less vacuum. Check motor specs for voltage tolerances as well.

A lot of racers don't like a 12v approach to cooling or vacuum due to the fact that the don't run alternators.

bleek

Yeah what the guy from the windy city said!

Chicago is totally correct!

Here's the deal as long as the vacuum pump is pulling the amount of vacuum you want, it really doesn't matter. Yes as you spin the pump off the motor the vacuum will increase, but only so much!

See all the good vacuum pumps will only create so much vacuum, no matter what rpm, as they normally have a by-pass built into them. Also if the pump spins too fast, it will actually stop sucking, and that's why GZ, Moroso, Stef's, and Peterson, all offer a set of pullies that only allow the pump to spin so fast.

Also, most places offer either a relief valve to mount on the rocker cover, or there pumps are adjustable. So here's the situation, what is it really gonna hurt if the pump if pulling the full amount of vacuum at idle or low rpm. It is not creating so much vacuum where you have to worry about sucking gaskets in, or sucking a real main seal in, so will it really hurt anything to have full vacuum at idle, no!

If it is a concern, adjust the relief valve, or pump to 75%, so instead of running the full 25" you run 15-18" and you kinda get the best of both worlds. But bottom line is, adjust the valve or pump to how much vacuum you want at wide open throttle, and you'll be fine. Anything kind of vacuum at any rpm is gonna help, that's why i tell people it's not just about high rpm motors, and it's not about low tension rings!

Whatever combo you go with, it's gonna help, if you go engine driven make sure you match up the pulley diameters, if you go electric, do like Chicago says and just get a good electric drive motor, and you'll be gold!

Also i was reading somewhere about how people talk about plumbing from both sides of the rocker covers and stuff. Here's where i stand on it, whatever side you attach the inlet to, put the relief valve on the other. Also if you use no valve, seal up the motor! What's the point of running negative pressure if you got lots of vacuum leaks!

More updates on the heads in a few, heads either go on this week or next, so get ready!

bleek

OK guys here's the pics of the heads when they were in final assembly, heads are done now, just waiting for install!

Here's a break down of what went into the heads:

-Full re/re on the heads, everything part was brand new except for the castings
-Custom Ferrera Valves (bigger and stronger)
-Full race port
-brand new springs, retainers, spring cups, rocker arms, rocker shafts, and seals

We flowed the heads compared to stock and we gained lots on the exhaust side and even more on the intake.

Here's a pic of the heads as the valves were being lapped in.

Acez

everything is starting to look together

bleek

Here's some more pics! Here's a few to show you some of the detail that went into each runner.

Check out on the exhaust how the valves blend into the runners, and those intake runners gained more flow then we ever anticipated!

Enjoy!

pshek

Did you ever get it flowed?

Grumpy666

A couple comments on crankcase vacuum pumps:

The pump speed needs to be synchronized with the engine's speed. If you pull too much vacuum at low RPM levels (ie, no relief valve), you could evacuate too much oil mist from the engine. Unless your piston pins are pressure fed, this could lead to trouble.

If your primary purpose here is to remove combustion contamination, pump away - just watch your vacuum level. If you're looking for a HP increase, you won't get it w/o low-tension rings. That's where the 25+ HP comes from at high RPMs in high HP engines. And do you really want to run low-tension rings in a street engine that is below 3000 RPM 95% of the time?

bleek

Check it out! OPEN HEART SURGERY!



pshek, heads flowed big numbers! Just don't have them on hand, the shop and the cam grinder have all the flow numbers!

Ok guys in the final stretch! Everything getting bolted up as we speak!

Should be finished, Monday, or Tuesday, and off to the dyno! JamE55 you'll be the first to see the number my friend!

All the techs at the dealership were just blown away at the workmanship! Everything is just gonna be killer!

Enjoy!

JamE55

Whoa! Looks interesting since i haven't seen an M113 taken apart. Wonder how long the installation takes. Cory's visiting me within the next couple of weeks to work on mine maybe i should have him work on getting this while he's down here.

btw. I know you don't have the numbers but how much % would you say the flow showed?

bleek

JamE55, we picked up HUGE numbers on the intake side because of the two bigger valves, and we still gained alot on the exhaust side, but the intake we picked up somthing like 80-100 cfm!!!!!!!!!! We are still stratching our heads there! But let me get the actual numbers for you to make sure!

Crap my car should be down there, in about two weeks, if you really need the heads bad, we'll get Brandon to pull my set off, and i'll send another set down!

I'll say this, the summer is gonna be a true test of all the bas asses here, and i need every last hp i can get my hands on to compete!

Check out my old heads!

PTE

Bleek; I've been read your posts with great interest, And there will always be some % of compresson , leaking by the rings . So then it travels down the side clearence of the piston skirt and into the Crankcase. It seems like Crankcase pressure could be a issue. But everytime I've remove my intake manifold , it has some oil laying in the lower plenum. I've looked into why it gets there.It really bothers me Then I started looked at the Cam valve train area

There is a ton of oil laying in cylinder head bolt pockets and in valleys , that are there for < Clearance ,for the Cam Lobes. They just do not drain well. The cylinder head drain back passages to the Crankcase , don't seem to allow all the oil to return. It appears the vents are much larger , AE: Timing chain passages. Than the drains ? When I was removing the heads . but used a Vet hypo seringe , to suck the oil out of the low lieing areas. To my supprise after I removed the heads , set them upright , MORE OIL FLOWED OUT With all this oil under the valve covers , My Guess is that when we Chop the throttle shut after a hi rpm run, There is a LOT of vaccum pulled on the hose just after the throttle Plate. May we can find a check valve that closes at Vaccum . then sends that cçase pressure to the exhaust system ?? Lets keep look for Ideas Take care ___PTE___

allied107

Man I just spent like 2 hrs reading throught this thread. Your work is freaking amazing great job A+.

chiromikey

i'm glad you brought this up as this is something i've been curious about too.

bleek

PTE, see that's why i has said it is so very important that a forced induction car have some form of vaccum pump! Anything we can do to create negative pressure will help or eliminate oil consumption problem.

See draining starts to become a problem when crankcase pressures start getting high, and this further manifests the bad drainage in the heads. Under normal conditions oil drainage from the heads would not be a problem, but when pressures are pushing back up to the rocker covers, nothing drains, and the oil just sits there waiting to get sucked out by the pcv or other vacucm lines.

So now when you remove your intake, there's gonna be a **** pile of oil there! Your throttle body, intake track, are all huge vaccum sources, and my guess is your pcv is plumbed right there! Plugging the vaccum line off is not a problem, but now we either need to plumb one of the rocker covers into a catch can(see previous photos), plumb the lines into the headers, or run a vaccum pump. The only down side with the header set up is, it does not create quite enough vaccum that i would like, and also not sure how the o2 sensors will like the oil(ie. check engine light) but at least that way any of those above ideas will minimize a detonation problem, and allow us to make more power.

Please go through my earlier posts and check out the picks of the vaccum pump, worth the $300 and then some!

Allied107 thanks for the kind words, got alot of go fast parts for the car, holding off on mounting the SLR style intercoolers as per JamE55's request, so we can see how much extra power the heads make. Got a few more tricks up my sleeve, seems like 10.5's on the motor should be the norm this summer, probably see a few 10.0's with the spray, let's see if i can up the ante!

blackbenzz

Anxiously awaiting dyno numbers!

stevebez

Bleek

bleek

blackbenz, soon homie!

Stevebez, thanks for the kind words!

Actually finally got the car back together! My tech is *******g awesome, he went and changed my timing chain and a bunch of other stuff, so it took a bit longer! JamE55 your gonna kill me, as i might not have enough time to dyno the car here, as Brandon is waiting on it since it took longer then i thought.

My tech took the car out today on clean dry pavement, took it out for a pass, and the car blew the tires off at 140km/h(85mph) like it was standing still! All he could say was i needed BIGGER brakes, and he never felt any 65 even come close to pulling like my 55! He brought it back to the shop as he actually felt uncomfortable driving the car, he just kept saying it was too dangerous for the streets!

So the heads are officially done, and now the car is off to Colorado, to mount up my intercoolers, get my race tune put on, and get my tranny ready for war! Once it comes back, i'll be mounting my custom nitrous plate to the car, and wee see what i can knock out at the track! Gonna wait for my buddy's(549rwhp) car to come back from germany, as he sent his car out there for the tranny upgrade, and a special tune from a german tuner. We'll see how both our cars are, as both are pretty much the same, as we will both have the custom throttle body, heads, intercooler, custom pulley, kooks headers, nitrous, but different ecu tunes, should be interesting!

Only difference is i think my friend is gonna be testing 150hp shot on the car, should be killer, my friend is determined to put Toronto on the map, he feels like he needs to represent, and man is he ever going to! Anyone wanna guess how fast the field will be this summer?

JamE55, blackbenz i'll try my best to goto the dyno asap, but i cant promise, if not just brake Brandon's ***** and get him to throw the car on before he bolts the intercoolers up!

Guys if you got any questions, let me know!

Vadim @ FD

bleek:

Very well done!!!!

God, I am itching to get back to tuning!

jparch

bleek , can't wait to see the beast all done. i hate not being able to drive mine in the winter months. Hopefully we can take it for a nice pass now that the weather is warming up over the next week.

blackbenzz

With all those mods and 150 shot I'm guessing single digit pass in the making

viper04

You guys are really going nuts in T.O. I love it. Keep us posted on how it go's. I may have to come back home to see you run that beast.