••• Project Stock to Awe •••
06-16-2009, 02:54 AM
#352
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2009
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C218 CLS63TT PP Edition1, W213 E63S
very nice thread
enjoyed reading it
it was like a story of car
but your drag timing are lacking
hope you get them better next time
enjoyed reading it
it was like a story of car
but your drag timing are lacking
hope you get them better next time
07-29-2009, 03:25 PM
#353
Super Member
Thread Starter
Tuners conundrum...
Thought the following may be interesting for those who are curious about how some tuners actually perform their craft.
I had the opportunity to watch a tuner examine & program my 55's ECU's and you maybe surprised that there is allot more to it than you think...
My existing TCU and ECU parameters had major flaws which caused throttle blipping, intermittent Tranz errors and rough running. I'm not going to start pointing fingers and go political but the last fidgeter who programed my ECU's have not been mentioned on this forum so there isn't a need to name them. I was referred to these guys who basically Effed me over and provided zero support bla bla bla... but what's really important is how the problem has been corrected.
I used to think, how difficult could it be to alter a few maps?... cut & paste some code to get the master tune and make a stack of coin doing so? Only if I had the super App and hardware that could do all... Well, it's a bit more involved than that unfortunately.
To program ECU's you need to know about the actual combustion chamber design amongst many other mechanical attributes before you even start to think about it. Something interesting I found out though is that our 55's burn rich for a reason. Most power is safely gained with an air fuel ratio of around 11:1 as our chamber design burns really efficient. Basically the chambers are unique compared to other designs and 11:1 is the best ratio for the Komp mill so It's not rich because you decided to bolt on a bigger pulley fortunately.
The code embedded in the ECU ROM is obviously encrypted as MB and or other OEM's don't want anyone playing funny buggers with the program. So what's the big secret? What's the story with all these chip tuners? Well... there are many layers and as far as I know there isn't a magic App that gives you access to all that can be tweaked. Tuners who actually manipulate the code have acquired segments or sub application "Keys" that give them access to a particular part of code located in the ECU maps, for instance, the SC bypass valve behavior section & mapping which not every tuner can access. There are a number of ways to acquire these individual keys, one way is to reverse engineer it yourself or purchase unique Keys if possible which would obviously require special industry knowledge and or contacts. It's no surprise that high level tuners or "Super tuners" do their best to protect their own unique IP investments.
So who is who? I believe most tuners fall into a few categories from my own observations:
The "Pirates"... they copy and hack other tunes and Frankinstine the patch work or out right copy other code to your ECU for large coin. Much smoke and mirrors used here. They usually get brought undone as Super tuners embed their own ID and trace hacked tunes when read.
The "Agents"... they purchase generic pre-compiled MAP's or tune profiles from unknown or secret suppliers who seem to know what their doing then they rebadge and brand it as their own then write this to your ECU. They know the ECU basics and trust that the tune works well from experience and their own testing through customer feedback and dynos. It's like knowing that there is a language called Chinese but can't actually speak it. They don't actually manipulate code just move it and provide a basic service.
The "Apprentices" these guys invest in all the goodies and have good intentions which is an honorable attribute but at your expense. They have limited access to ECU parameters or "Keys" and usually have limited mechanical knowledge which is essential to perform a super tune. They try hard and hopefully one day will become masters of their trade as they gain more experience. Good luck fellers!
The "Intermediates" They have broad mechanical knowledge and have all the bells & whistles to provide a good generic or custom tune to which they proudly brand with their name. They have acquired their Keys and access through the hard yards and just keep improving.
The "Super Tuner" They hold a stack of Keys acquired over time and know how to manipulate every one of them. Their Software and Mechanical knowledge is superior and back it with extensive experience. They generally work in two locations, the dyno room and the office. This is where you get remarkable figures and operation backed by science. Remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Evidence is relatively simple these days, hearsay and dyno figs are just guides so visit the track and get a slip or cruz on the street and play with the big boys for laugh.
Is anyone missing? Not every tuner neatly falls into a box of course but as an observer of the WEB and through personal experience this is how I see it... How about you? Any tuners wish to comment?
Anyway, fixing my ECU's. I met Wayne and Billy from Powerchip at their offices in Melbourne where we chatted about the 55 mods and operational problems that I was experiencing. Next, Billy started to dissect my ECU by removing the ROM chip via surface mount desoldering and then installing a socket which was then hooked to a ROM emulator. See photos. This emulator was then hooked to a laptop via a USB cable. This is where all the fun starts. This emulator tricks the ECU into thinking that the normal program is on call but via the laptop you can monitor all ECU operations in real time with live 3D maps and other live data displayed.
This is where the Keys to access certain sections of code can be monitored and manipulated. Once the desired parameters are altered they can then be saved to file and burnt to ROM which is then placed back in the ECU. After many dyno runs and street testing through all weather conditions the tune slowly evolves through many trips and alterations. The latest dyno trip was to manipulate the bypass TB and fully shut it at 3000 rpm. I installed a reed switch earlier in my bypass TB so when it shuts I get a normally closed output which is displayed and heard on a multimeter in continuity mode. This also confirmed that the manipulated maps were spot on. See the following photos and comments for further explanation.
The car now runs firm and sharp. Off to the track again with slicks and a new tune which I'll post the results up next.
Emulator hooked up to the ECU.
All hooked up ready to go.
Connection to the meter from the BP valve.
Billy doing his thing.
This is one of the 3D maps being monitored. The red part on the graph actually moves with revs and load.
The multi meter hooked to to the BP valve.
More adjustments being made.
The evil Dyno Dynamics Heart breaker dyno... Ha Ha... AF spot on.
I had the opportunity to watch a tuner examine & program my 55's ECU's and you maybe surprised that there is allot more to it than you think...
My existing TCU and ECU parameters had major flaws which caused throttle blipping, intermittent Tranz errors and rough running. I'm not going to start pointing fingers and go political but the last fidgeter who programed my ECU's have not been mentioned on this forum so there isn't a need to name them. I was referred to these guys who basically Effed me over and provided zero support bla bla bla... but what's really important is how the problem has been corrected.
I used to think, how difficult could it be to alter a few maps?... cut & paste some code to get the master tune and make a stack of coin doing so? Only if I had the super App and hardware that could do all... Well, it's a bit more involved than that unfortunately.
To program ECU's you need to know about the actual combustion chamber design amongst many other mechanical attributes before you even start to think about it. Something interesting I found out though is that our 55's burn rich for a reason. Most power is safely gained with an air fuel ratio of around 11:1 as our chamber design burns really efficient. Basically the chambers are unique compared to other designs and 11:1 is the best ratio for the Komp mill so It's not rich because you decided to bolt on a bigger pulley fortunately.
The code embedded in the ECU ROM is obviously encrypted as MB and or other OEM's don't want anyone playing funny buggers with the program. So what's the big secret? What's the story with all these chip tuners? Well... there are many layers and as far as I know there isn't a magic App that gives you access to all that can be tweaked. Tuners who actually manipulate the code have acquired segments or sub application "Keys" that give them access to a particular part of code located in the ECU maps, for instance, the SC bypass valve behavior section & mapping which not every tuner can access. There are a number of ways to acquire these individual keys, one way is to reverse engineer it yourself or purchase unique Keys if possible which would obviously require special industry knowledge and or contacts. It's no surprise that high level tuners or "Super tuners" do their best to protect their own unique IP investments.
So who is who? I believe most tuners fall into a few categories from my own observations:
The "Pirates"... they copy and hack other tunes and Frankinstine the patch work or out right copy other code to your ECU for large coin. Much smoke and mirrors used here. They usually get brought undone as Super tuners embed their own ID and trace hacked tunes when read.
The "Agents"... they purchase generic pre-compiled MAP's or tune profiles from unknown or secret suppliers who seem to know what their doing then they rebadge and brand it as their own then write this to your ECU. They know the ECU basics and trust that the tune works well from experience and their own testing through customer feedback and dynos. It's like knowing that there is a language called Chinese but can't actually speak it. They don't actually manipulate code just move it and provide a basic service.
The "Apprentices" these guys invest in all the goodies and have good intentions which is an honorable attribute but at your expense. They have limited access to ECU parameters or "Keys" and usually have limited mechanical knowledge which is essential to perform a super tune. They try hard and hopefully one day will become masters of their trade as they gain more experience. Good luck fellers!
The "Intermediates" They have broad mechanical knowledge and have all the bells & whistles to provide a good generic or custom tune to which they proudly brand with their name. They have acquired their Keys and access through the hard yards and just keep improving.
The "Super Tuner" They hold a stack of Keys acquired over time and know how to manipulate every one of them. Their Software and Mechanical knowledge is superior and back it with extensive experience. They generally work in two locations, the dyno room and the office. This is where you get remarkable figures and operation backed by science. Remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Evidence is relatively simple these days, hearsay and dyno figs are just guides so visit the track and get a slip or cruz on the street and play with the big boys for laugh.
Is anyone missing? Not every tuner neatly falls into a box of course but as an observer of the WEB and through personal experience this is how I see it... How about you? Any tuners wish to comment?
Anyway, fixing my ECU's. I met Wayne and Billy from Powerchip at their offices in Melbourne where we chatted about the 55 mods and operational problems that I was experiencing. Next, Billy started to dissect my ECU by removing the ROM chip via surface mount desoldering and then installing a socket which was then hooked to a ROM emulator. See photos. This emulator was then hooked to a laptop via a USB cable. This is where all the fun starts. This emulator tricks the ECU into thinking that the normal program is on call but via the laptop you can monitor all ECU operations in real time with live 3D maps and other live data displayed.
This is where the Keys to access certain sections of code can be monitored and manipulated. Once the desired parameters are altered they can then be saved to file and burnt to ROM which is then placed back in the ECU. After many dyno runs and street testing through all weather conditions the tune slowly evolves through many trips and alterations. The latest dyno trip was to manipulate the bypass TB and fully shut it at 3000 rpm. I installed a reed switch earlier in my bypass TB so when it shuts I get a normally closed output which is displayed and heard on a multimeter in continuity mode. This also confirmed that the manipulated maps were spot on. See the following photos and comments for further explanation.
The car now runs firm and sharp. Off to the track again with slicks and a new tune which I'll post the results up next.
Emulator hooked up to the ECU.
All hooked up ready to go.
Connection to the meter from the BP valve.
Billy doing his thing.
This is one of the 3D maps being monitored. The red part on the graph actually moves with revs and load.
The multi meter hooked to to the BP valve.
More adjustments being made.
The evil Dyno Dynamics Heart breaker dyno... Ha Ha... AF spot on.
07-29-2009, 03:37 PM
#355
Super Member
Thread Starter
$lick trick
Here is a method of acquiring slicks that will fit under the rear guards and clear the brake calipers on the cheep. I suppose you can go buy an off the shelf rims but I decided to proceed with the following plan to save a stack of coin and get traction fast.
Sourced some stock 16" S class rims from the local Benz Wrecker (Recycler, Breakers Junk yard, etc... wherever your from the name ca be different.) for cheap. You can see the part number in the photo below. These are as common as dog scat so not much coin to invest here.
Next, add some licorice to the rims, this time I'm trying some Hoosiers, 16" x 255 inflated to 18 psi cold. Every one said "use MT's" yeah yeah maybe next time...
Since these rims won't clear the calipers, I measured the ideal distance from the hub face to the rim which was around a 14mm and drew up a spacer plate design on a basic CAD App which the file is attached below this thread for download as a pdf. Any competent engineer can make these spacers for cheep from this plan. I paid 40 bux each Ausie $.
The stock wheel bolts won't be long enough so I found a set of 10 which mesures up from the local Merc Wreckers, again for bugger all. These were also from a S class and are around 45mm long, sorry I don't know the part number off hand but I'm sure that a member here can enlighten us all... See photos below.
Yeah, not exactly a sexy wheel but will do the job for us weekend warriors. Surprisingly light and strong. Maybe forged?
14mm custom spacer sitting on the spigot hub. The clearance should be perfect so the wheel is centered.
Rear shot of the spacer. These were zinc plated.
S class stock wheel bolt. Common as scat.
Rear of stock rim with part number and specs.
Another happy camper...
This shot shows the contact area after some heating. I found it biting harder than usual. Anyway, we'll soon see if there is any improvement on ET.
Finny wheel spacer.pdf
Sourced some stock 16" S class rims from the local Benz Wrecker (Recycler, Breakers Junk yard, etc... wherever your from the name ca be different.) for cheap. You can see the part number in the photo below. These are as common as dog scat so not much coin to invest here.
Next, add some licorice to the rims, this time I'm trying some Hoosiers, 16" x 255 inflated to 18 psi cold. Every one said "use MT's" yeah yeah maybe next time...
Since these rims won't clear the calipers, I measured the ideal distance from the hub face to the rim which was around a 14mm and drew up a spacer plate design on a basic CAD App which the file is attached below this thread for download as a pdf. Any competent engineer can make these spacers for cheep from this plan. I paid 40 bux each Ausie $.
The stock wheel bolts won't be long enough so I found a set of 10 which mesures up from the local Merc Wreckers, again for bugger all. These were also from a S class and are around 45mm long, sorry I don't know the part number off hand but I'm sure that a member here can enlighten us all... See photos below.
Yeah, not exactly a sexy wheel but will do the job for us weekend warriors. Surprisingly light and strong. Maybe forged?
14mm custom spacer sitting on the spigot hub. The clearance should be perfect so the wheel is centered.
Rear shot of the spacer. These were zinc plated.
S class stock wheel bolt. Common as scat.
Rear of stock rim with part number and specs.
Another happy camper...
This shot shows the contact area after some heating. I found it biting harder than usual. Anyway, we'll soon see if there is any improvement on ET.
Finny wheel spacer.pdf
Last edited by Finny; 07-30-2009 at 04:58 AM.
07-29-2009, 04:46 PM
#357
MBWorld Fanatic!
hi,
you say: "Tuners who actually manipulate the code have acquired segments or sub application "Keys" that give them access to a particular part of code located in the ECU maps.. "
so, which specific app keys does your tuner have acquired?
because I thought that software house hadn't anything AMG55 specific available ..
you say: "Tuners who actually manipulate the code have acquired segments or sub application "Keys" that give them access to a particular part of code located in the ECU maps.. "
so, which specific app keys does your tuner have acquired?
because I thought that software house hadn't anything AMG55 specific available ..
07-29-2009, 05:13 PM
#359
Super Member
Thread Starter
hi,
you say: "Tuners who actually manipulate the code have acquired segments or sub application "Keys" that give them access to a particular part of code located in the ECU maps.. "
so, which specific app keys does your tuner have acquired?
because I thought that software house hadn't anything AMG55 specific available ..
you say: "Tuners who actually manipulate the code have acquired segments or sub application "Keys" that give them access to a particular part of code located in the ECU maps.. "
so, which specific app keys does your tuner have acquired?
because I thought that software house hadn't anything AMG55 specific available ..
Not sure, that's their private IP but there were many...
They tuned my 55 without any dramas.
Would also like to point out that this was worded for the technologically deaf individuals, who are not stupid, they were just born at the wrong time. It's really not their fault.
Last edited by Finny; 07-30-2009 at 05:21 AM.
07-29-2009, 05:29 PM
#360
MBWorld Fanatic!
would be really interesting to know if and what they reverse engineered by themselves
because the closest plug-in available for that software is the V8 430 model ...
because the closest plug-in available for that software is the V8 430 model ...
07-29-2009, 05:46 PM
#361
MBWorld Fanatic!
Those are some fat spacers!!! Clearance to fenders OK?
V interesting about tuners... its no secret the german tuners are better "informed" about the german code than elsewhere. Also look at where their offices are, some are around the corner from merc / AMG head offices. Its no secret they go to the same bars either, and its no wonder these codes get cracked... or should I say passed on.
V interesting about tuners... its no secret the german tuners are better "informed" about the german code than elsewhere. Also look at where their offices are, some are around the corner from merc / AMG head offices. Its no secret they go to the same bars either, and its no wonder these codes get cracked... or should I say passed on.
Last edited by stevebez; 07-30-2009 at 05:19 AM.
07-29-2009, 09:42 PM
#363
MBWorld Fanatic!
07-30-2009, 05:55 PM
#365
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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'10 Panamera S, '06 AMG CLS55, '07 Miata MX5, '02 MB SPRINTER, '99 Spec Miata Race Car (2X)
Glad to see you back and on course Finny
And once again, need I say it, thatnks for sharing the detail that makes it easier for all of us to head down your modding path with less drama. Sorry I missed you on my last Oz trip - will be there in a couple of weeks - will give you a call.
And once again, need I say it, thatnks for sharing the detail that makes it easier for all of us to head down your modding path with less drama. Sorry I missed you on my last Oz trip - will be there in a couple of weeks - will give you a call.
08-10-2009, 04:38 AM
#368
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Supercharged CLK W209 V8 55 AMG Kompressor
Not sure, that's their private IP but there were many...
They tuned my 55 without any dramas.
Would also like to point out that this was worded for the technologically deaf individuals, who are not stupid, they were just born at the wrong time. It's really not their fault.
They tuned my 55 without any dramas.
Would also like to point out that this was worded for the technologically deaf individuals, who are not stupid, they were just born at the wrong time. It's really not their fault.
I would add that they used 'Winols' software (I recognize it from photo), which is among the best on the market.
The ECU of the E55 K being of the family Bosch ME2.8, this software has the driver and the correct checksum for the detection of Maps and the completion of tuning.
When I tuned my CLK 55 AMG Kompressor after engine conversion, I used ECM2001 which is an Italian software.
Before processing parameters change on maps, you have to define whitch air/fuel ratio you want; here is 11:1, that means 11g of air mixed to 1g of fuel needed to achieve detonation: this is air/fuel map tuning. The amount depends on 'RPM' and 'Engine Load'.
On the other hand, another map should be tuned, which is 'Time ignition map': it manages the time when the coil spark should fire the air/fuel mixture.
08-19-2009, 03:29 PM
#369
Out Of Control!!
I fully agree with how the tuners have made the tuning of the ECU. Using the EPROM emulator, chassis Dyno in real time.
I would add that they used 'Winols' software (I recognize it from photo), which is among the best on the market.
The ECU of the E55 K being of the family Bosch ME2.8, this software has the driver and the correct checksum for the detection of Maps and the completion of tuning.
When I tuned my CLK 55 AMG Kompressor after engine conversion, I used ECM2001 which is an Italian software.
Before processing parameters change on maps, you have to define whitch air/fuel ratio you want; here is 11:1, that means 11g of air mixed to 1g of fuel needed to achieve detonation: this is air/fuel map tuning. The amount depends on 'RPM' and 'Engine Load'.
On the other hand, another map should be tuned, which is 'Time ignition map': it manages the time when the coil spark should fire the air/fuel mixture.
I would add that they used 'Winols' software (I recognize it from photo), which is among the best on the market.
The ECU of the E55 K being of the family Bosch ME2.8, this software has the driver and the correct checksum for the detection of Maps and the completion of tuning.
When I tuned my CLK 55 AMG Kompressor after engine conversion, I used ECM2001 which is an Italian software.
Before processing parameters change on maps, you have to define whitch air/fuel ratio you want; here is 11:1, that means 11g of air mixed to 1g of fuel needed to achieve detonation: this is air/fuel map tuning. The amount depends on 'RPM' and 'Engine Load'.
On the other hand, another map should be tuned, which is 'Time ignition map': it manages the time when the coil spark should fire the air/fuel mixture.
08-19-2009, 05:26 PM
#370
MBWorld Fanatic!
....
I would add that they used 'Winols' software (I recognize it from photo), which is among the best on the market.
The ECU of the E55 K being of the family Bosch ME2.8, this software has the driver and the correct checksum for the detection of Maps and the completion of tuning.
...
.
I would add that they used 'Winols' software (I recognize it from photo), which is among the best on the market.
The ECU of the E55 K being of the family Bosch ME2.8, this software has the driver and the correct checksum for the detection of Maps and the completion of tuning.
...
.
... yes, family is the same ME 2.8, but we have 2.81 and I don't see in the table I already posted above (which shows available winols plug-ins) they have anything really specific for the 55 Kompressor engine
their newest release appears to be for SLK55 .. which is not a Kompressor
Last edited by dyno; 08-19-2009 at 05:32 PM.
08-20-2009, 01:39 AM
#371
Super Member
You can have all the software you want, but look carefully, they are editing hex code directly. You have to know specifically which byte to change, and to what.
If you've ever hacked through binary computer files, you'll know that you must either have exact info from the creator, or know specifically what pattern to search for. Trial and error gets exponentially less successful as file size grows, so inside info or an apprenticeship is a must.
If you've ever hacked through binary computer files, you'll know that you must either have exact info from the creator, or know specifically what pattern to search for. Trial and error gets exponentially less successful as file size grows, so inside info or an apprenticeship is a must.
08-20-2009, 05:04 AM
#372
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Supercharged CLK W209 V8 55 AMG Kompressor
... yes, family is the same ME 2.8, but we have 2.81 and I don't see in the table I already posted above (which shows available winols plug-ins) they have anything really specific for the 55 Kompressor engine
their newest release appears to be for SLK55 .. which is not a Kompressor
their newest release appears to be for SLK55 .. which is not a Kompressor
ECM2001 directly detects the different maps: injection timing turbo etc ... provided you have the right driver for the ECU.
I can give you addresses of binary maps, I have the same ECU bin file E 55 AMG Kompressor, so you can edit them directly in Winols.
Hearing from U.
08-20-2009, 03:57 PM
#374
MBWorld Fanatic!
that's the drawback of Winols, it gives no information about the maps it detects.
ECM2001 directly detects the different maps: injection timing turbo etc ... provided you have the right driver for the ECU.
I can give you addresses of binary maps, I have the same ECU bin file E 55 AMG Kompressor, so you can edit them directly in Winols.
Hearing from U.
ECM2001 directly detects the different maps: injection timing turbo etc ... provided you have the right driver for the ECU.
I can give you addresses of binary maps, I have the same ECU bin file E 55 AMG Kompressor, so you can edit them directly in Winols.
Hearing from U.
It is absolutely user un-friendly !
at least if compared to a real tuning software like Motec for example, which is intended for tuners and not for software engineers.
I think this is the main reason why you see so many un-happy customers:
the minimum required knowledge and comprehension of that thing is out of reach for most of those who do not want to do a guess work.
I used it some months ago to look for maps into the TCU file and I found something ... but the problem is more complex, there are compatibility issues ..
So I contacted them directly but they confirmed me that nothing specific for re-programming ( not simply "tuning", i.e. changing of values within the given range) Siemens TCU was available.
the same answer I got from other software developers like ECM/Alien, CMD ..
somebody would be willing ..but the business perspective is still confused .
02-22-2010, 12:37 AM
#375
MBWorld Fanatic!
Let me be the first to bump this in 2010.
This is an instant classic thread. Great work man. You have guts! I've been reading for the last few hours and learned so much about my 55k engine thanks to you and you're detailed pictures. Finny is the man!
This is an instant classic thread. Great work man. You have guts! I've been reading for the last few hours and learned so much about my 55k engine thanks to you and you're detailed pictures. Finny is the man!
