Amg 63 R&d #1
07-19-2007, 12:36 PM
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2020 Audi R8 V10, 2016 AMG GTS, 2018 E63S Edition 1, 2018 Porsche GTS Cab, 2012 C63 BS
Took the car to MB of South Bay earlier today and got latest engine and transmission software flashed. Car had software from "tuner wanna-be", who shall remain un-named, and was audibly detonating under part and wide open throttle.
From there I ran it to Powertain Dynamics for a quick baseline.
Car does have 20'' wheels and although they are forged and lighter than most cast wheels they still add unsprung weight.
I have dynoed several 63s in the past and they were in 420RWHP range. AMG rates the car at 504HP, so 420/504 = 0.833, which represents 17% drivetrain loss. Which corresponds to my previous experience dynoying MBs/AMGs.
I was expecting to be down about 15-20HP, due to the wheels. This is exactly what we saw - 400RWHP and 365RWTQ.
I do have a set of stock wheels and will redyno the car sometime this week.
From there I ran it to Powertain Dynamics for a quick baseline.
Car does have 20'' wheels and although they are forged and lighter than most cast wheels they still add unsprung weight.
I have dynoed several 63s in the past and they were in 420RWHP range. AMG rates the car at 504HP, so 420/504 = 0.833, which represents 17% drivetrain loss. Which corresponds to my previous experience dynoying MBs/AMGs.
I was expecting to be down about 15-20HP, due to the wheels. This is exactly what we saw - 400RWHP and 365RWTQ.
I do have a set of stock wheels and will redyno the car sometime this week.
07-19-2007, 01:09 PM
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ABOUT F-ING TIME DUDE!!
Sweet!!! I can't wait. I'll stop by sometime this week to take a look. When are you gonna setup a AMG meet at your shop?
Sweet!!! I can't wait. I'll stop by sometime this week to take a look. When are you gonna setup a AMG meet at your shop?
For the meet at the shop look at the link below:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...83#post2328483
07-19-2007, 01:11 PM
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Is that youe new daily driver Vadim?
The first part of this post tells me so much about Vadim's experience and committment. While I know my car is fast I believe Vadim could make it faster thru some simple R&D to see how my car is running. I have had my car dyno'd several times and I was basically told the car was "all in". Vadim can you take a look at my 55 soon? It has 36k on it and probably needs to be reassessed since it was all tuned up back in 2004/2005.
Check your PM 
07-20-2007, 01:27 AM
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07 E63,03 c4s,01 tahoe, 00 RL
V.
My E63 via your help is wanting some love.
Good seeing you at the HMS meet,
You making it this wkend in SD?Vic and his pink debauchery are gracing us.
R.
My E63 via your help is wanting some love.
Good seeing you at the HMS meet,
You making it this wkend in SD?Vic and his pink debauchery are gracing us.
R.
07-20-2007, 12:56 PM
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You making it this wkend in SD?Vic and his pink debauchery are gracing us.
can u work a little faster please
I will post more details tonight.
07-24-2007, 03:16 PM
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Ok, more data.
I was not happy with baseline numbers.
As much as I LOVE the look of Vellanos, I knew they were worth around 20HP.
After putting stock 18'' back on the car, we have recovered our lost power.
Stock rear wheel and tire are 49.1 lbs, rear Vellanos are 58.4 lbs. Difference of 9.3 lbs. Times two = 18.6 lbs for a loss of almost 20 RWHP or roughly 1 HP per 1 lb., exactly what I have seen before on other cars.
Vellanos were also approximatelly an inch taller, which as you can see from the graph, reduced overall gearing.
I love the looks of 20'' on AMGs, but there is price to pay.
Now, what is next? Lets start with small change - bolt-ons.
1. HiFlow Air Filters - since no one makes them, we are making our own. They should be available by the end of August. I am not expecting huge gains, around 3-5RWHP. If you would like to add your name to the waiting list feel free to call or PM me.
2. UnderDrive Pulleys - On a NA 55 motors they are worth 5-10RWHP. On 63 Power steering pulley is hard to get to and remove without taking out a power steering pump. So the plan for now is offer UnderDrive pulleys in two stages - larger and lighter weight alternator and water pump pulleys in Stage I. Adding lighter and smaller damper will create Stage II.
3-5RWHP for Stage I and 10-12RWHP for Stage II is what I am expecting based on my previous testing.
3. Heat Spacers - isolating intake manifold from the engine will not result in measurable HP, however, it keeps the car more consistent by reducing heat soak through metal contact into intake manifold.
4. Software - Powerchip is loading software and we are going back to the dyno on Thursday. They have just located a number if important maps that can result in some nice power gains.
5. Resonator replacement X-pipe. As the name implies it will be a simple to install X-pipe that will replace factory resonator. It should wake up the exhaust note on the car without requiring muffler replacement.
6. Headers - over the years, on this forum, there have been numerous battles waged between the proponents of shorty headers and proponents of long tube headers.
There shall be war no more
We will make both. Shorty will gain less power, easier to install, but will not require relocating catalytic converters, long tubes will gain more, but will require more labor to install and relocation or replacement of converters (OFF-ROAD USE ONLY).
Head flanges are done and we will begin building prototypes and production jigs within several weeks..
I am also looking into several other products, but I will reveal their nature later.
Further on the agenda is to cross match parts fitment to other chassis (ML, S, CL, CLK, R and C).
Getting to 470-480 RWHP (565-575 HP) apperas to be feasible with bolt-ons.
As always, thank you for listening!
I was not happy with baseline numbers.
As much as I LOVE the look of Vellanos, I knew they were worth around 20HP.
After putting stock 18'' back on the car, we have recovered our lost power.
Stock rear wheel and tire are 49.1 lbs, rear Vellanos are 58.4 lbs. Difference of 9.3 lbs. Times two = 18.6 lbs for a loss of almost 20 RWHP or roughly 1 HP per 1 lb., exactly what I have seen before on other cars.
Vellanos were also approximatelly an inch taller, which as you can see from the graph, reduced overall gearing.
I love the looks of 20'' on AMGs, but there is price to pay.
Now, what is next? Lets start with small change - bolt-ons.
1. HiFlow Air Filters - since no one makes them, we are making our own. They should be available by the end of August. I am not expecting huge gains, around 3-5RWHP. If you would like to add your name to the waiting list feel free to call or PM me.
2. UnderDrive Pulleys - On a NA 55 motors they are worth 5-10RWHP. On 63 Power steering pulley is hard to get to and remove without taking out a power steering pump. So the plan for now is offer UnderDrive pulleys in two stages - larger and lighter weight alternator and water pump pulleys in Stage I. Adding lighter and smaller damper will create Stage II.
3-5RWHP for Stage I and 10-12RWHP for Stage II is what I am expecting based on my previous testing.
3. Heat Spacers - isolating intake manifold from the engine will not result in measurable HP, however, it keeps the car more consistent by reducing heat soak through metal contact into intake manifold.
4. Software - Powerchip is loading software and we are going back to the dyno on Thursday. They have just located a number if important maps that can result in some nice power gains.
5. Resonator replacement X-pipe. As the name implies it will be a simple to install X-pipe that will replace factory resonator. It should wake up the exhaust note on the car without requiring muffler replacement.
6. Headers - over the years, on this forum, there have been numerous battles waged between the proponents of shorty headers and proponents of long tube headers.
There shall be war no more
We will make both. Shorty will gain less power, easier to install, but will not require relocating catalytic converters, long tubes will gain more, but will require more labor to install and relocation or replacement of converters (OFF-ROAD USE ONLY).
Head flanges are done and we will begin building prototypes and production jigs within several weeks..
I am also looking into several other products, but I will reveal their nature later.
Further on the agenda is to cross match parts fitment to other chassis (ML, S, CL, CLK, R and C).
Getting to 470-480 RWHP (565-575 HP) apperas to be feasible with bolt-ons.
As always, thank you for listening!
07-24-2007, 04:14 PM
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'05 C55(sold)'05 E55(sold)'06 911C4S(sold)'06 ML350 '06 CLS55(sold),buncha slo bikes
WooHoo!Excellent work Vadim!!
What does a BONE STOCK E55 put to the rear wheels?
What does a BONE STOCK E55 put to the rear wheels?
07-25-2007, 06:52 PM
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Thanks guys!!!
Took the car to Powerchip in LA to get it flashed with initial tune.
Impressions: Wow! The car definitely needed it.
Where stock car feels flat down low, now it jumps out at as you wiggle the toes. Major improvement in driveability, almost feels like 55 now, but without jumpy clutch engagement.
As far as power gains, it is going back on the dyno tomorrow. I will post the results as usual.
Took the car to Powerchip in LA to get it flashed with initial tune.
Impressions: Wow! The car definitely needed it.
Where stock car feels flat down low, now it jumps out at as you wiggle the toes. Major improvement in driveability, almost feels like 55 now, but without jumpy clutch engagement.
As far as power gains, it is going back on the dyno tomorrow. I will post the results as usual.
Last edited by Vadim @ FD; 07-26-2007 at 12:10 AM.
07-26-2007, 04:13 PM
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Blower or turbo will be a complex undertaking.
11.3:1 CR, boost and 91 gas do not mix very well. So it would have to be very low 3-4 psi kit, maybe even with 3:07 gears to reduce engine load and chance of detonation.
Secondly, lack of room under the hood. It would have to be a under-car mounted turbo or screw-kompressor mounted in it's own manifold.
Either one will not be cheap. Not far from Kleemann charges for their 550 kits.
Thridly, will 7g transmission take over 500 ft.lbs. of TQ?
11.3:1 CR, boost and 91 gas do not mix very well. So it would have to be very low 3-4 psi kit, maybe even with 3:07 gears to reduce engine load and chance of detonation.
Secondly, lack of room under the hood. It would have to be a under-car mounted turbo or screw-kompressor mounted in it's own manifold.
Either one will not be cheap. Not far from Kleemann charges for their 550 kits.
Thridly, will 7g transmission take over 500 ft.lbs. of TQ?
Last edited by Vadim @ FD; 07-26-2007 at 04:15 PM.
07-27-2007, 11:55 AM
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Kleeman's website has a very interesting write up on the new 7G tranny,I'll copy&paste it here.It's very interesting&they seem to think it will handle alot more hp/torque w/out any issues
07-27-2007, 12:30 PM
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heres the info from Kleeman:
Will the 7G tronic be able to handle the power of a KLEEMANN tuning solution?
The 7 speed 7G tronic transmission (722.9) is slowly being phased in to replace the 5 speed (722.6) transmission Mercedes Benz has used for the last 5 years. All new N/A V6 and V8 vehicles are now being built with the W7A 700 variant of the 7G tronic. The WA700 variant is endurance load rated by Mercedes Benz at 760 Nm (560 lbs/ft) of torque. This means the transmission will handle this amount of power continuously with out failure. There will never be a time where one can develop this kind of power continuously on the road. Momentary load ratings are easily 35 % higher than continuous ratings. The 7G tronic transmission will easily handle the performance from a KLEEMANN conversion. The 7G tronic has been available for nearly one year and KLEEMANN has modified many of these vehicles. None of these modified vehicles has had any trouble to date, many of them having logged in excess of 64,000 km (40.000 miles).
Overview over Engines, Gearboxes and Constant Loads:
Engine Gearbox Constant load
All 7-Speed W7A700 700 Nm
M113 - V8 OE Kompressor 5-Speed W5A900 900 Nm
M275 - V12 N/A 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M275 - V12 Bi Turbo 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M113 - V8 N/A 5-Speed W5A580 580 Nm
M112 - All 5-Speed W5A330 330 Nm
Will the 7G tronic be able to handle the power of a KLEEMANN tuning solution?
The 7 speed 7G tronic transmission (722.9) is slowly being phased in to replace the 5 speed (722.6) transmission Mercedes Benz has used for the last 5 years. All new N/A V6 and V8 vehicles are now being built with the W7A 700 variant of the 7G tronic. The WA700 variant is endurance load rated by Mercedes Benz at 760 Nm (560 lbs/ft) of torque. This means the transmission will handle this amount of power continuously with out failure. There will never be a time where one can develop this kind of power continuously on the road. Momentary load ratings are easily 35 % higher than continuous ratings. The 7G tronic transmission will easily handle the performance from a KLEEMANN conversion. The 7G tronic has been available for nearly one year and KLEEMANN has modified many of these vehicles. None of these modified vehicles has had any trouble to date, many of them having logged in excess of 64,000 km (40.000 miles).
Overview over Engines, Gearboxes and Constant Loads:
Engine Gearbox Constant load
All 7-Speed W7A700 700 Nm
M113 - V8 OE Kompressor 5-Speed W5A900 900 Nm
M275 - V12 N/A 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M275 - V12 Bi Turbo 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M113 - V8 N/A 5-Speed W5A580 580 Nm
M112 - All 5-Speed W5A330 330 Nm
07-27-2007, 12:49 PM
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heres the info from Kleeman:
Will the 7G tronic be able to handle the power of a KLEEMANN tuning solution?
The 7 speed 7G tronic transmission (722.9) is slowly being phased in to replace the 5 speed (722.6) transmission Mercedes Benz has used for the last 5 years. All new N/A V6 and V8 vehicles are now being built with the W7A 700 variant of the 7G tronic. The WA700 variant is endurance load rated by Mercedes Benz at 760 Nm (560 lbs/ft) of torque. This means the transmission will handle this amount of power continuously with out failure. There will never be a time where one can develop this kind of power continuously on the road. Momentary load ratings are easily 35 % higher than continuous ratings. The 7G tronic transmission will easily handle the performance from a KLEEMANN conversion. The 7G tronic has been available for nearly one year and KLEEMANN has modified many of these vehicles. None of these modified vehicles has had any trouble to date, many of them having logged in excess of 64,000 km (40.000 miles).
Overview over Engines, Gearboxes and Constant Loads:
Engine Gearbox Constant load
All 7-Speed W7A700 700 Nm
M113 - V8 OE Kompressor 5-Speed W5A900 900 Nm
M275 - V12 N/A 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M275 - V12 Bi Turbo 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M113 - V8 N/A 5-Speed W5A580 580 Nm
M112 - All 5-Speed W5A330 330 Nm
Will the 7G tronic be able to handle the power of a KLEEMANN tuning solution?
The 7 speed 7G tronic transmission (722.9) is slowly being phased in to replace the 5 speed (722.6) transmission Mercedes Benz has used for the last 5 years. All new N/A V6 and V8 vehicles are now being built with the W7A 700 variant of the 7G tronic. The WA700 variant is endurance load rated by Mercedes Benz at 760 Nm (560 lbs/ft) of torque. This means the transmission will handle this amount of power continuously with out failure. There will never be a time where one can develop this kind of power continuously on the road. Momentary load ratings are easily 35 % higher than continuous ratings. The 7G tronic transmission will easily handle the performance from a KLEEMANN conversion. The 7G tronic has been available for nearly one year and KLEEMANN has modified many of these vehicles. None of these modified vehicles has had any trouble to date, many of them having logged in excess of 64,000 km (40.000 miles).
Overview over Engines, Gearboxes and Constant Loads:
Engine Gearbox Constant load
All 7-Speed W7A700 700 Nm
M113 - V8 OE Kompressor 5-Speed W5A900 900 Nm
M275 - V12 N/A 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M275 - V12 Bi Turbo 5-Speed W5A1000 1000 Nm
M113 - V8 N/A 5-Speed W5A580 580 Nm
M112 - All 5-Speed W5A330 330 Nm
Hmm, in that case................ one of the objections is knocked out.
I am building an X-pipe for the car today, let me take a better look underneath.
08-02-2007, 08:22 PM
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More good stuff:
1. Dyno for Powerchip will be coming up shortly, the owner has the car for a couple of weeks.
2. Got confirmation on HiFlow Air Filters, they will be available first week of September. They will fit all 63s (E, CLS, C, ML, S, CL and R), I am expecting around 5 - 7HP.
Their regular price will be $189 for a set of two. For those placing orders now until the end of August they will on special for $139.
3. I also had a chance to do a X-pass pipe to replace factory resonator and get more sound out of the engine without getting into the mufflers.
Car now has a nice growl that does not intrude into the cabin, but can be heard on upshifts and downshifts and hard acceleration.
I will post pricing and availability as soon as possible.
Next on the schedule are shorty headers, Underdrive Pulleys, software testing and HiFlow Air Boxes.
I am still looking into forced induction, so if you are interested - let me know.
Thank you for listening.
1. Dyno for Powerchip will be coming up shortly, the owner has the car for a couple of weeks.
2. Got confirmation on HiFlow Air Filters, they will be available first week of September. They will fit all 63s (E, CLS, C, ML, S, CL and R), I am expecting around 5 - 7HP.
Their regular price will be $189 for a set of two. For those placing orders now until the end of August they will on special for $139.
3. I also had a chance to do a X-pass pipe to replace factory resonator and get more sound out of the engine without getting into the mufflers.
Car now has a nice growl that does not intrude into the cabin, but can be heard on upshifts and downshifts and hard acceleration.
I will post pricing and availability as soon as possible.
Next on the schedule are shorty headers, Underdrive Pulleys, software testing and HiFlow Air Boxes.
I am still looking into forced induction, so if you are interested - let me know.
Thank you for listening.
08-02-2007, 09:08 PM
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old daily driver '07 E63(gone); new dd '14 750xi; 2013 Viper GTS
More good stuff:
1. Dyno for Powerchip will be coming up shortly, the owner has the car for a couple of weeks.
2. Got confirmation on HiFlow Air Filters, they will be available first week of September. They will fit all 63s (E, CLS, C, ML, S, CL and R), I am expecting around 5 - 7HP.
Their regular price will be $189 for a set of two. For those placing orders now until the end of August they will on special for $139.
3. I also had a chance to do a X-pass pipe to replace factory resonator and get more sound out of the engine without getting into the mufflers.
Car now has a nice growl that does not intrude into the cabin, but can be heard on upshifts and downshifts and hard acceleration.
I will post pricing and availability as soon as possible.
Next on the schedule are shorty headers, Underdrive Pulleys, software testing and HiFlow Air Boxes.
I am still looking into forced induction, so if you are interested - let me know.
Thank you for listening.
1. Dyno for Powerchip will be coming up shortly, the owner has the car for a couple of weeks.
2. Got confirmation on HiFlow Air Filters, they will be available first week of September. They will fit all 63s (E, CLS, C, ML, S, CL and R), I am expecting around 5 - 7HP.
Their regular price will be $189 for a set of two. For those placing orders now until the end of August they will on special for $139.
3. I also had a chance to do a X-pass pipe to replace factory resonator and get more sound out of the engine without getting into the mufflers.
Car now has a nice growl that does not intrude into the cabin, but can be heard on upshifts and downshifts and hard acceleration.
I will post pricing and availability as soon as possible.
Next on the schedule are shorty headers, Underdrive Pulleys, software testing and HiFlow Air Boxes.
I am still looking into forced induction, so if you are interested - let me know.
Thank you for listening.
