MRAMG1

First thing first, my heart and prayers go out to the families and parents. VERY sorry for their loss.

Now


Is should NEVER be up to the goverment, that is what is wrong with society today. Blaming the govenrment for what is wrong with your life NEVER works. I agree to teach your kids, I know I will with my son, at an early age. SO that they can learn and respect limits, yes speed limits to. If you lived in the US I would say your TRUELY a DEMOCRAT sir and agian. Its up to families to take responsibilty for thier actions as well as their kids actions. NEVER ANY GOVERNMENT. If your lucky enought to afford a fast car, then go get some training on how to drive it. And above all else use some COMMON SENSE while driving, and save 150 MPH passes for the track.

See yeah

Again: My heart and prayers go out to their love ones.

KrisKeeney

Absolutely correct.

At this stage of our republic's development, it is completely wishful thinking to EVER rely on the government for anything, OTHER THAN taking our money to support untold numbers of 9 to 4:59pm jobs that could disappear w/o anyone noticing.

kchristos

Somehow, I don't understand how the parents of the other kids will find pleasure by destroying the lifes of the rest of the members of the family! This won't bring their loved ones back!

Agreed that the parents of the kid that was driving made a clear mistake to let him buy a car like that but legally isn't he considered an adult after he reach 18? If he somehow has the money to buy the car and insurance, how in the world can the parents legally force the kid not to have it? If they can't legally force him not to have the car, then how can they be considered liable for what happened?

Improviz

Military? Public highways? Schools? Libraries? Police/fire/EMT? I mean, this is kind of over the top....are you guys advocating anarchy?

In point of fact, had the guy who heard and saw these kids out there racing *before* the accident took place promptly called the police, those young men might well be alive.

Now, having said that, I certainly don't agree with the statement that "it's up to the government" to educate kids to drive responsibly, because 1) they already do (it's called driver's ed and is available at most public high schools afaik), and 2) this absolves the parents of the responsibility of buying an 18 year old with limited driving experience and a bad driving record a 500 horsepower car, and absolves the 18 year old for doing what he did, and absolves the resident for not calling the police, etc. etc. etc....

There is certainly a case to be made for personal responsibility here, but I think it's a non sequitur to state that this means that we should abolish the government.

E55BKS

I saw the video of Josh Torch giving a eulogy at one of the funerals, he mention a guy by the name of Micheal Crook had web site that was bashing the kids that were involved the tragedy. Does anybody know who this idiot is and where he's from? Is this the same guy that was bashing our troops last year?

http://www.ocala.com/apps/pbcs.dll/s...tid=1392476699

06CLK350

You should not judge a person by the car they drive. As i said, he is a very calm driver and in my opinion he deserves much better. He has never received a speeding ticket, nor have he been involved in any accidents. I have seen kids driving hondas like a idiot. If you raise your kids the right way, you do not have to worry about what car they drive. I hate when people automatically assume that he is a fast driver all the time just because he drives an m6.

MRAMG1

I think you read just a LITTLE toooo deep my friend. What was said that the government should not intervien with peoples driving rights, and that PARENTS should teach their kids how to drive. NO WHERE did it talk about"]Military? Public highways? Schools? Libraries? Police/fire/EMT? " TOOO many people like to blame their government for ALL of the woes in their life. Everyone is accountable for their own actions, and its up to the parents to rasie their own kids right, or wrong maybe.

See yeah

PS: Again hopes and prayers for all that this terriable incident has touched.

KiwiRobbie

The M5 wasn't involved in the same crash as the RS6.

Improviz

Maybe so...thought you were agreeing with the other guy, sounds more like you were just agreeing with a small portion of it.....I took it to mean that you thought government was worthless, and while I'd certainly say this is the case wrt congress and the excecutive branches in the last few decades (at least), I wouldn't agree with the government as a whole, which is why I listed the things I listed: to show that they do do *some* useful things.

Laterz!

pcalver

Recall that the father was the registered owner of the car, and the son was using it with his permission. This (ab)use resulted in the deaths of 4 other people.

Yacht Master

[QUOTE=MRAMG1;2628516]the government should not intervien with peoples driving rights, QUOTE]

Driving is a privilege and is not a right. This holds true in all 50 states.
Who ever told you driving is a right is

This is from Fl drivers hand book page 2.

Driving a motor vehicle in Florida is a privilege you earn. You cannot obtain a license in Florida under the following conditions:

If your license is suspended or revoked in any state;
If you are addicted to drugs or alcohol;
If you cannot drive safely because of mental or physical problems; (Deafness alone will not prevent a person from being issued a driver license.)
If you are under the legal age for licensing (15 for Learner's license, 16 for Class E).
Every driver who obtains a license must drive safely to keep it. If you break the traffic laws or become an unsafe driver, your license can be taken away. It can be suspended, revoked, or canceled.

Your license can be SUSPENDED if you:

Make a fraudulent driver license application.
Allow your license to be used for a purpose that is against the law.
Are convicted in a traffic court and the court orders that your license be suspended.
Refuse to take a test to show if you are driving while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
Misuse a restricted license.
Earn a certain number of points for traffic offenses on the point system.
Break a traffic law and fail to pay your fine or appear in court as directed.
Fail to pay child support.
Fail to carry insurance on your vehicle.
Fail to stop for a school bus.
Use tobacco if you are under age.
Retail theft.
Your license must be REVOKED if you are found guilty of, or department records show:

Driving while under the influence of alcohol, drugs or other controlled substances.
A felony in which a motor vehicle is used.
Not stopping to give help when the vehicle you are driving is involved in a crash causing death or personal injury.
Lying about the ownership or operation of motor vehicles.
Three cases of reckless driving within one year. Forfeiting bail and not going to court to avoid being convicted of reckless driving counts the same as a conviction.
An immoral act in which a motor vehicle was used.
Three major offenses or 15 offenses for which you receive points within a 5-year period.
A felony for drug possession.
Vision worse than the standard minimum requirements.
Racing on the Highway.
A court may also order that your license be revoked for certain other traffic offenses.

Your license will be revoked for at least three years if you kill someone because of reckless driving.

Cancellation
If your license was issued because of a mistake or fraud (giving false information or identification), it will be canceled.

Chargin55

I think you mis understood me. I don’t think we all should rely on the government to wrap us in cotton wool and wipe our butts.
In Australia learner drivers do a pissy "too easy" written test and a short drive around the block with a driving assessor and wambo! You’re on the road and on your way. By saying the Government needs to act I'm referring to better training and education. And if you cannot control the car on a wet skidpan in an emergency situation you do not pass the test.
Next time your driving behind someone that obviously has no idea and your having a whinge about how the hell they obtained their drivers licence just think about how easy the system is and maybe how government could tighten things so these idiots don’t slip through the system. I like you are lucky to have been raised in a car / automotive environment but unfortunately the looser who might wipe out you and your family may not have been. So... was it up to his daddy to teach him or was it up to the department that issued his licence to assess and teach him to have the skills to share the road with others.

MRAMG1

I did take you a little TOO seriously my friend. Thanks for the update/correction
You are correct it is WAY too easy to get a license, I like the way its done in Poland, of all places, ALOT better. Heck they even make you learn basic mechanic skills, like tire changing, before you get your license.

Anyway, please don't take it as a personal attack on you, I just REALLY hate one someone desires/mandates the government to clear up all of their personal headaches/woes.

See yeah

PS: I know driving is a right, not a priveldge, which is why you are guilty until proven inocent of ANY driving violation

DCarrera

x10 Even though I'm now a divorced parent and only see my kids every other weekend I try to include something 'cool' in every weekend, such as the air-and-space museum or having them 'help' me work on a car or go go-kart racing. Something challenging, and has rewards for a goals met. Plus.. it's a real bonding experience for everyone. I know I need to work harder at it... time is sooooo precious. I hope I never have to face what the parents of the driver or moreso, those four passengers did.

Improviz

Article is ambiguous as to whether it was traveling at this speed when it left runway or before braking, though; it says both, but seems to be more emphatic that this was before braking. If he was going 120 and braked for two seconds, at a minimum he'd have been going between 68 and 85 mph when he got airborne, assuming dry pavement, good brakes, etc...but w/extra load of four passengers, it may have been more in the range of 75-90.

http://www.ocala.com/article/2008020.../BREAKING_NEWS
FHP: BMW traveling at least 120 mph before crash at airport

BY FRED HIERS
Star-Banner

OCALA — The high-performance BMW carrying five young men toward their deaths on Jan. 26 was roaring down Greystone Airport at a speed of at least 120 mph when it left the end of the runway, sailed 200 feet through the air and slammed into a fence and three trees.

That was the conclusion listed in a Florida Highway Patrol report released Monday about the single-vehicle crash.

FHP spokesman Lt. Mike Burroughs said the investigation continues. His agency is interviewing dozens of people who potentially have information about the crash.

Authorities say Joshua D. Ammirato, 18, was driving the BMW M5 down the 1.5 mile-long airstrip, which is inside Jumbolair Aviation Estates in Anthony.

Burroughs said 120 mph was the minimum speed the car was traveling before the driver hit the brakes. He braked for 2 to 3 seconds and the car veered sideways.

The vehicle rotated clockwise as it left the end of the paved runway, overturned and went airborne.

It sailed over an 85-foot dip toward trees 200 feet away.

The car first struck a wire fence and tree, according to the report. The right side then struck a second tree, shearing the vehicle in two. Then the rear section struck a third tree. The driver and all four passengers were ejected, according to the report.

The vehicle's pieces and passengers all came to rest in a vacant lot in the 1400 block of Northeast 95th Street.

Meanwhile, the Star-Banner has learned that the Florida Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco has joined the investigation.

"The Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco was asked by FHP to aid in their investigation," said the agency's spokeswoman, Alexis Antonacci.

She said she could not comment further, because of the ongoing investigation.

The agency's job is to regulate those who produce or sell alcohol or tobacco and assist law enforcement agencies whose investigations involve either of those products.

Antonacci said the division, which is part of the Florida Department of Professional and Business Regulations, has in the past assisted other law enforcement agencies with auto crashes that involved alcohol.

Burroughs said FHP still awaits a toxicology report, which will indicate whether the driver had been drinking. Any information the Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco agency finds would be used to "bolster" that toxicology report.

"Since this crash involved a driver and passengers all under 21 years old, which is the legal age to consume alcoholic beverages, rumors (about alcohol consumption) must be filtered appropriately," Burroughs said.

"We are taking a proactive approach and applying sound investigative techniques should toxicology reports indicate that alcohol consumption by minors might have contributed to the accident," he said. "If our investigation revealed that alcohol was obtained by minors, we would request that Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco assist us."

Previously, Burroughs said that only the remains of the driver would be tested for alcohol. Now he says testing could also include the passengers: Jacob James Casey, 19; James Devon Hime, 19; Dustin J. Dawe, 19; and Isaac Rubin, 20.

The $85,000 car belonged to Ammirato's father, Santo.

The report indicated that Joshua Ammirato and the front passenger, Hime, were wearing seatbelts. The other three were in the rear seat and were not wearing seatbelts.

The report also said there was only one car involved in the wreck. There have been rumors of other cars at the scene at the time of the crash.

"We have solid evidence that indicates there was only one car involved," Burroughs said, although he would not discuss the nature of that evidence.

Burroughs declined to comment on rumors that there is a pre-crash videotape of the car on the Greystone runway.

Meanwhile, James Hime, father of passenger James Devon Hime, said the specifics of the crash no longer concerned him.

Hime, 54, of Orlando, said his only concern now was that the crash might convince other young drivers to not drive dangerously.

"Stay close to your children and know where they are," he said. "My greatest goal now is to reach these other children."

Hime is now represented by two Orlando lawyers who specialize in wrongful death cases, including auto accidents.

"I don't so much blame the child (Joshua Ammirato) as the parent," Hime said.

The crash report was not released to the public last week, although it was completed. Burroughs said FHP officials first wanted to give it to the parents of the crash victims and discuss the document with them.

But Hime said he didn't have much use for the crash report now.

"I don't have nay questions about that," he said. "It's just statistics."

Carl Lassiter

"Burroughs said 120 mph was the minimum speed the car was traveling before the driver hit the brakes. He braked for 2 to 3 seconds and the car veered sideways."

Seems they're estimating on the low side just to be cautious. Additionally, this report again highlights the error of pulling on the steering wheel at the last moment.

CWW

Wow... I'd REALLY hate to be whoever sold/gave those kids the alcohol that night...

Article implies they'll be at least a couple state agencies knocking on the door soon enough.

zoink

I believe it was a freak accident... I don't think the air strip was well lighted at 3AM... so the accident may be due to low visibility and inexperienced driver.

I believe my '08 535 should have the same headlights as '08 M5. There are some parts of roads nearby my house that don't have enough lighting.... I almost hit someone crossing the street illegaly (divided road, no intersection).... I saw him in the last minute... and I only drove around 45-50. Can't imagine how much time left when he saw the end of airstrip at 100+ mph.

And this has not included the possibility of alcohol involvement which certainly impaired judgment.

Improviz

Right...the ambiguity stems from the first sentence in the article: "The high-performance BMW carrying five young men toward their deaths on Jan. 26 was roaring down Greystone Airport at a speed of at least 120 mph when it left the end of the runway."

However, I'd place my stake in with what the cop said, which is why I wrote that the article seemed more emphatic on this point.

Well, if they left the runway at around 90 mph, that would account for the damage we're seeing, so it's plausible with a few seconds of braking....but then it begs the question of how the hell they managed to overdrive bixenon headlights going only 120, particularly when it's been alleged that this wasn't their only run.

I went out a short while ago to run an errand, and decided to check how far I could see on a relatively dark road. I was able to see fairly well out to 0.15 miles or so with my brights on (which are halogen; the lows are xenon--no bixenons in '01!), so I'm thinking that to have overdriven the bixenons (assuming he thought to turn them on), they'd have had to have been going faster than that.

But if they could have gotten out to 0.2 miles of illumination with the lights on and knew where the end of the runway was, this doesn't make sense unless a) they were driving far faster than 120, or b) there was some sort of gross failure, collision with an animal, tire blowout, slick runway, something of that sort.

Improviz

Xenons do have a very sharp cutoff, so if the driver didn't have enough sense to turn on his brights, that would make sense. Maybe the final report, if and when it's released to the public, would contain this info if they're able to determine the state of the lights at the time of the crash from the onboard computer (dubious, but can't rule it out these days).

Carl Lassiter

An unmarked runway would be very disorienting at night, especially with 5 of them in the car likely making a lot of noise/distraction. If they'd hit an animal, there's be blood over the hood and runway. Blowout is highly unlikely on a new car with high perf. tires. and again would likely leave debris.

I'm assuming they were going quicker simply because the car is o damned powerful. Of course, the police know better than me but maybe they underestimated how much speed huge cross drilled discs can scrub off in 2-3 seconds, not that it was anywhere enough in this instance.

By the way, bixenons I think means that the Xenon stays on even when full beams are are on and not that both bulbs are xenon. I could be wrong though as I've read a thread on this and everyone was a little confused.

Improviz

True, hadn't thought of the blood from the animal....if the tire shredded there would be debris as well, so it must've been something else.

Wrt the runway, though, it is marked....you can find it on google maps (click here for googlemaps' satellite map of site; in it, you can find John Travolta's house, w/707 parked in driveway, on right side of photo further down), and there are distinct marks on there towards the end they went off...

Here is another picture of the runway:


The end at the bottom of the photo is where they ran off....if they'd have started braking at the "18" area, I believe they'd have had enough time. I checked it using the scale on google maps, and it's about 1500' or so from that spot to the end of the runway. Even at top speed, they should have been able to get stopped in that distance, but I don't think they had enough distance to get up to top speed w/five on board *and* stop on a 1.4 mi. runway (more on that in a moment).

Yeah....with the extra several hundred pounds of passenger weight on board, they'd have lowered the weight/hp ratio to that of an E39 M5 (and lengthened their braking distances considerably). I believe that the E39 M5 would hit about 145-150 in a mile, which may have been their undoing: if they were trying to hit the full 160 mph top end of that vehicle on a 1.4 mi. runway, they'd have been pert damn near out of runway when they got there.

It seems like I'd read that they do use the same xenon bulb, with the difference being that in high beam mode they move a reflector inside the lens to raise the cutoff point and hence the distance....does that sound like what you've heard?

T Bone

I wouldn't put it past the geniuses to have turned off the lights to remain stealthy.

Also, using a minimum calcalation, what speed must an M5 have to fly 200 feet in the air....this is probably the 120 mph speed.

BTW, some pilots on the M5board also agree, since this is a private airport, the lack of markings, it would have been extremely difficult to pick up the braking points and if the rumors are true that they made multiple passes, they were probably "going for the record" on the last run....they succeeded.

MRAMG1

How typical in a let's sue anyone world. He was NOT a child, atleast in my mind and the governements, he was an ADULT, albeit a YOUNG adult. But at 19 you can serve and DIE for our GREAT country in ANY armed services. I guess they should also sue BMW for making a car that can go faster than the legal speed limit in our country as well.

What a crock

See yeah

Again, My heart and prayers go out for the surviving family memebers.

Hazy1

[QUOTE=T Bone;2636764]I wouldn't put it past the geniuses to have turned off the lights to remain stealthy. QUOTE]

That's exactly what I had been thinking for awhile. I checked the lunar tables for that night and it was just a couple of days after a full moon with the moon being directly overhead at that time of the morning. We used to do similar stupid things with the lights off all the time at that age. If any of you have ever turned your lights off on a desolate interstate with a full moon, you will know that there is plenty of ambient light for high speed runs with no lights.