RJC

Couldn't he have gotten sideways when he realized there way no more runway ahead and he just turned sharply and skidded (with or without stabilty on)?

Improviz

I would think that the ASC would prevent this, but otoh I suppose if one really wrenched the wheel at that speed it could certainly go sideways, ABS or no. Probably a panic reaction, which unfortunately produced exactly the opposite of what he intended: it would certainly have led to their going off the end of the runway at a higher rate of speed than if he'd have simply laid on the brakes for all they were worth.

I believe that the yaw marks were about 70' long, though, so it wouldn't have made that much difference....at best, he could've scrubbed off an extra 10 mph or so with perfect straightline braking in that distance at the speed they were going, so it's doubtful that it would have changed the outcome.

With a second or so of visualization-to-braking time, at 120+ you'd need two full football fields to react and get stopped with virtually ideal braking surface, temp, traction, etc...by 140+ you're looking at more like three football fields, and by 160 you're closing in on four.

Man...if I ever get the urge to go fast on a dark deserted road, what I've learned over the course of this should squash that urge pretty quick!

RJC

Yes. I was thinking when he saw there was no where to go but off the edge he just turned hard and sideways he went (I'd bet he was hard on the brakes too) yet still traveled over the edge as the car had way too much forward momentum to do anything to the contrary. Those last few seconds must have been hell for him...RIP .

Improviz

Yeah, definitely...one shudders to think. Way too much machine for an inexperienced adreniline junkie...if I'd have had a car like that when I was 18, I doubt very seriously that I'd be here now to type this.

But I learned my lesson...my kids are getting friggin' Corollas with two cylinders deactivated.

RJC

Agreed. When I was 18 I thought I was invincible and did some very foolish things, actually way past 18 ; I finally got a little bit smarter at about 30-something. In all honestly between the flying, race boats, motorcycles and cars I've owned over the years I am truly lucky (and thankful) to be here today.

Improviz

Amen to that...looking back at some of the moronic stuff I did back then, it's a tribute to my proverbial Irish luck that I didn't get myself killed or take anyone out with me in the process.

This past year has given me a kind of wake-up call to just how precious, and fragile, life is. Which is one reason why I'm strongly considering forgoing the temptation a vehicle like this subjects me to and getting something a bit milder for my next one....

Improviz

Looks like earlier reports of a second car at the runway may have been accurate:

http://www.ocala.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...43/1001/NEWS01

Witnesses say party preceded fatal Greystone crash
Second car reportedly sped down runway

BY FRED HIERS
STAR-BANNER

OCALA - Nearly three weeks after a young Marion County man drove his father's BMW off the end of a private airstrip at Jumbolair Estates, killing himself and four passengers, information is emerging that there was a party at the airport shortly before the crash and that there was at least one other car on the runway.

In addition, the Star-Banner has learned the driver, 18-year-old Joshua Ammirato, had planned just hours before the fatal crash to join other BMW M5 drivers on an unnamed airstrip in South Florida for a future high-speed run.

"I'm in," he responded in an online post to M5board.com forum members planning the trip.

But he never got the chance. That's because he would first test his high-performance car at Greystone Airport.

Now, witnesses are reporting seeing dozens of empty alcohol bottles in a pool and reception hall area at the south end of the runway and empty alcohol bottles nearby at the edge of the airstrip, suggesting there was a party before the crash.

Witnesses also said they saw at least two sets of car lights on the runway that morning, suggesting there were others who saw what happened but left before authorities arrived.

In the early morning hours just after Ammirato drove his father Santo's high-performance BMW M5 over the edge of the runway, an employee at Jumbolair Estates said he saw enough to convince him there was a party just before the crash.

"I seen everything: beer cans and tire tracks peeled out on the grass," said Ron Zupancic, 46.

Zupancic works for John Travolta, who owns a home in the gated, aviation community.

Zupancic said that at about 3:45 a.m. Jan. 26 he was returning to Jumbolair when he saw firetrucks speeding into the upscale community.

He followed the emergency workers back into Jumbolair and saw the mangled remains of the $85,000 BMW that sailed 200 feet through the air before slamming into an oak tree past the end of the runway.

Later that morning, he also saw what remained of a party: alcoholic beverage bottles scattered around Jumbolair's clubhouse/reception hall and pool area, including bottles thrown in trash cans on the south end of the 1.5-mile-long runway.

"There should have been some supervision on the property. Security should have been an issue," he said.

But Zupancic wasn't the only person who saw alcohol bottles that morning.

Two other people who had access to the pool area and airstrip, and who spoke to the Star-Banner on condition that their names not be printed, said they, too, saw empty bottles from a party late Friday night and early Saturday morning. One of them snapped pictures of the bagged bottles and sent them to the newspaper.

They told the Star-Banner that the bottles later were collected by Florida Highway Patrol investigators.

The accounts those two provided to the newspaper are consistent with what FHP investigators said they came across just after the crash.

FHP investigator Capt. Jeff Succi told the Star-Banner that the five men were at a party hours before the crash. FHP soon backtracked from the statements, though, and said only toxicology reports would answer whether alcohol was involved.

Asked whether FHP saw and collected the bottles from the south end of the runway, FHP spokesman Lt. Mike Burroughs said Tuesday he "could not confirm or deny" whether investigators saw and collected them.

"FHP has an obligation to protect the ongoing criminal investigation so that individuals who possibly could face criminal charges receive fair representation," Burroughs said.

Jeremy Thayer, one of Jumbolair's owners who lives at the south end of the runway next to the reception hall/pool area, said late last week that he knew nothing about a party the night before the crash.

Thayer's daughter, Natalie, was the girlfriend of one of the passengers, Isaac Rubin, 20. Also killed in the crash were Jacob James Casey, 19; James Devon Hime, 19; and Dustin J. Dawe, 19.

"I have not heard of any party," Jeremy Thayer said, adding the pool area was always kept locked.

"I just know they [the BMW's driver and four passengers] got on the property," Thayer said.

As for witnesses seeing dozens of beer bottles in the pool area, Thayer said, "Jumbolair has always been a hotbed of rumors."

Burroughs said investigators are still questioning people who have knowledge about the accident.

"New witnesses continue to come forward daily with information and in some cases physical evidence that corroborates previous pieces of the investigation."

At least one witness has told investigators and the Star-Banner he saw at least two sets of headlights on the airstrip just a few minutes before the crash.

"I heard cars running up and down the runway. It woke me up," Jumbolair resident George Borger said. "I saw them going up the runway. They were flying.

"There were two cars. I saw at least two cars," he said.

FHP investigators estimate Ammirato was driving at least 120 mph before the car left the airstrip.

What Borger saw is consistent with what another man reported.

That witness wanted to remain anonymous, but he told the Star-Banner he saw two sets of headlights at the south end of the runway not long before the crash. He also saw skid marks in the grass at the south end of the 1.5-mile runway afterwards.

Improviz

Somone on the ocala forum posted that he deleted the thread referred to in the article. The thread was about some guys in Fla who wanted to rent an airstrip, legally, during daylight hours, and do some runs. This is not in any way, shape, or form illegal, as opposed to trespassing on a private airstrip at 3AM.

Dumb...rule #1: don't make yourself look like you've got something to hide when you've got nothing to hide. That post contained no reference to any illegal behavior, nor did it condone any illegal behavior.

RJC

Is it possible that the bottles etc were there from another day?

MRAMG1

Of course, but I am sure someone will try and bash me for agreeing with you. Too many laywers in this world, that are out for a quick buck and trying to make something out of it.

See yeah

Hearts and prayers again go out for the family memebers that have to endure this nightmare

Improviz

Sure, but this would beg the question as to why the FHP collected them, and why the employee of Travolta mentioned in the article thought there was anything out of the ordinary of their being present, not to mention what witnesses have said...

I'm sure the FHP will get to the bottom of this. They seem to be taking their time, dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's, so I'm sure the truth will come out in the end.

LZH

I find it interesting that on a private runway, where millions of dollars worth of aircraft, jet fuel, equipment etc......there are no surveillance cameras ???

Improviz

Lol, yeah, good point! Well, if there are any, they've so far done a good job of keeping that info under wraps!

valdeztke

Regardless of the amount of "training" you have to operate a vehicle, screaming down a runway at 3AM boils down to stupidity. So this kid could have had YEARS of track expierence - doesn't help when you make stupid mistakes unrelated to the mechanics/physics of the vehicle.

Darwinism - stupid people make stupid decisions everyday that end up in them killing themselves.

E55AMGGG04

Im 22 years old and my dad got me an E55 AMG. I love these fast cars. Truth is if i was a billionaire I would never buy my kid a fast car because I love driving at high speeds and racing.

valdeztke

We wish you the best with that.

Carl Lassiter

88 page report completed. Here's the newspaper's summary of the results. It must still be hell for the families involved.

http://www.ocala.com/article/2008060.../ENTERTAINMENT

I Like Soup

Gee, I hope that keystone arrest made the investigators feel like they accomplished something.

Truly a horrible story.

KB122

Improviz

This makes more sense. They'd originally said that they thought the vehicle was traveling at 120 minimum before it started braking, but the report says the estimated speed at impact was 120 mph.

I still have that spreadsheet, and took a quick look. If they were between 150-160 mph and braked for about 200 ft, they'd still be traveling at 128-138 mph. Figure the grass slowed them down a bit, after which they became airborne and speed decreased far less rapidly.

It's just as I surmised here and here; they were doomed from the start.

Only thing that bugs me still is that w/bixenons, they should have gotten enough illumination to have seen the end of the runway & had time to slow down considerably more than that...one wonders if he forgot to turn on his brights, or if fog or something else was in the mix. Either that, or it's just very difficult to ascertain the end of that runway even w/good lights...in any case, a tragedy and an abject lesson about the extreme stopping distances at high speeds (860-900 ft from 160 mph in an M5) and the dangers of driving this fast, particularly at night.

DFW01E55

Beer goggles.

T Bone

It will be interesting to see if any civil actions take place. I actually read through the police report and it squarely blames the driver and no one else...which is good which I hope it means no frivilous law suits get filed. The report doesn't finger anyone else that may be at fault.

They arrested the GF for making false statements and the dumbass woman serving beer to underaged people but that should be the end of the criminal part of the case.

I Like Soup

At that speed, no way the illumination of bixenons, or any other lights used on automobiles for that matter, would have enabled them enough time figure out that they were seeing the end of a runway and slow down considerably. Reminds me of the term "overdriving your lights". Makes sense to me.

RJC

Was arresting the young girl truly necessary?

str8ridin