jangy

I'm not talking about a 335i, nor am I talking about a car that can only be competitive in one arena.

Exodus

Let it go Jangy, you'll never win. The guy with the modded Black Series tried also, he got shot down too.

Heaven forbid the odds are in your favor in one race against one of those Z06s and you happen to come out on top.

Improviz

Perhaps you could explain how this heavily-modded E55 managed to get so soundly thrashed by a Z06? What did he do wrong?

Link to video:
Link to thread:

Those aren't carlengths, they are buslengths. Care to enlighten those of us who are actually gullible enough to believe what we see with our own eyes, and which has been corroborated by the members of this forum who drove both cars?

Exodus

Yup, corroboated alright

enzom

Like Venom, I have seen a bone stock C6Z06 run very low 11's - 11.2 to be exact at 125+ mph. I know the owner and have attended a number of track events with him. He knows how to drive his car, which is not easy.

I know of one C6Z06 that ran 10.9X bone stock at MIR last year. I don't know him, but think that many people would have cried BS if it was BS.

These are guys who have made probably 100 passes in their cars and know how to drive. They are just plain great at launching (1.6's and 1.7's on runflats). Think about it, a 1.7 60' time vs. a 2.0 60' time is a world of difference on the same car and is worth 1/2 second at the end of the 1/4 mile.

I had a C5Z06 with headers, high-flow cats, cat-back exhaust, intake, tune and 165 degree t-stat. It put down 392 rwhp. But I could never get it to trap higher than 113 or run quicker than 12.7. I have no doubt that it wasn't the car. The driver makes a huge difference in those cars.

Having said that, these are exceptional drivers. If you think that anyone is going to climb into a C6Z06 and run low 11's at the track, dream on. Takes quite a bit of practice and skill.

Improviz

So you're saying that 1) the video was staged, and 2) that the members who made and posted it are liars? Guess I'll PM them and let them know...

Exodus

No, stop putting words in my mouth-- I merely pointed out a post you seemed to have conveniently "missed."

05VENOM

Very valid points that I can relate to. I have dropped my 60' times in my 63 from the 2.0-2.05 range to the 1.85-1.95 range and have been rewarded with 12.1-12.2 ET's compared to my previous 12.4-12.6 ET's . And I am still practicing to get to a 1.80.... possibly a 1.79

05VENOM

My posts are not to belittle anybody at all or to make anyone feel bad but to report actual non-corrected runs.I have stood behind the concrete walls near the staging lanes and have seen these low 11 sec runs, so yes there are Z06's that run low 11's stock. You can say it is the east coast tracks or the DA or sea level or whatever but they are running these times.

Improviz

I'm not putting any words in anyone's mouth. You disputed that the results of a run between these two cars were "corroborated" by the video: I posted that it did, and you replied "Yep corroborated allright" with a rolleyes, which is a rather sarcastic way of saying that you don't believe the video corroborated anything. Are you now changing your story and claiming that you do not dispute the videos' authenticity? If so, then please explain why it is that skepticism is unfounded, given the thrashing that Z06 gave a stage 5 E55 in this video:

Another question: a Z06 traps at 126 to the 116 of a stock E55/SL600/CLK63 BS. That's a 10 mph difference. A W208 CLK55 traps at 106-108. Would you be even the slightest bit skeptical if someone were to post a claim that a 208 CLK55 had run dead even with a 211 E55 or an SL600, both of which trap at about 10 mph faster than the 208, in a 30-150 mph race, without the E55 or SL600 gaining more than 1/2 carlength? **I** certainly would be skeptical, and I own one!!

I find it entirely believable that in a standing-start 1/4 mi run, an E55 with a good driver could pull a Z06 driven by a lessor-skilled or inexperienced driver, because that Z is so damn difficult to get out of the hole...but we're talking roll-ons here, and that's another story, especially from 40-50 mph on up.

And speaking of "conveniently missing" posts, you seem to be totally ignoring the posts from several folks who've had first hand experience with (and owned both of) these cars.

Marcus Frost

I'm going to respond also because I've owned a C6 Z06. Jangy had considerable time according to his story to run the Z06, so the idea that this may be a fluke of driving on behalf of the Z06 owner doesn't seem to make much sense. People don't want to hear that what jangy is saying isn't possible, and I don't either - so I won't say that. My opinion here also comes from actual experience with both cars, and when it comes to this kind of discussion you have to look at the #s and figure out if things make sense. The reality is that they don't, but that doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. I think what the conclusion is to what is being said that while what jangy posted may have happened, it's not because his car is ultra-powerful, it's because whatever Z06 he was running does not perform up to the normal standard of C6 Z06s.

With that said, I'm sure it feels good to have pulled on a C6 Z06, but again, I will tell you from experience, from a roll in 3rd gear... even a stock C6 Z06 is just an absolute animal, and not one that will be walked away from a Stage 1/2 bolt-on E55 - so the idea that jangy didn't know "Z06s were so slow" is a bit presumptuous.

-m

573WHPCLS

I appreciate your "sincere words" I take no offense to what you say or believe. As for my driving skills, I have said it before on this forum and I will say it again. I have held a NHRA license for 15 years, won several titles in various NHRA classes in the 1990's, I own a Blown Firebird Trans Am that posts consistant 8.60's with me behind the wheel. I also own a Pontiac Trans Am GTA Turbo (factory 3.8l 6 cylinder) that runs 10.50's. I have made literally thousands of passes at dozens of tracks. Further more I post 1.7-1.8 60 foot times and still only produce 11.80 E/T's in my Z06, maybe I got a slow one from the factory???? I have never seen ANY, REPEAT, ANY SHOWROOM STOCK C6 Z06 POST BETTER THAN A high 11.60. With Slicks I can post 11.40's but showroom stock never.

FOR THE IDIOT CLAIMING TO HAVE SEEN A STOCK Z06 RUN A HIGH 10's, YOU NEED TO GET OFF THE DRUGS! High 10's, that's pretty funny, I think the keyword in that phrase is HIGH, the only thing high is you!!!!! Do you have big ears, buck teeth and a fuzzy tail, or are you the fat guy in the red suit?

Not here to start any trouble, just trying to be realistic, which is something some of you obviously have a problem with.

I get a laugh everytime, somebody's rebutle is " well a heavily modded this or that should be able to kill you". NEWS FLASH a heavily modded anything can beat ANYTHING. My 8 second Trans Am go beat by a Nissan 240 SX.....that runs low 8's, gee do you think it was modded?

Improviz

So, just because you've never seen one hit a low 11 means that it cannot be done? I mean, both Car & Driver and Motor Trend got an 11.7 or better, and C&D does *not* power shift their cars...that alone would add a few tenths. Further, those mag tests were done on cars with only a few thousand miles on them, and cars usually pick up a few tenths once they're well broken-in.

The thing is, other people claim to have seen it done, to personally know owners who have done it, and to have witnessed them doing it, and further, there are vids of folks doing it as well. I think that just issuing a blanket statement basically calling them all liars or dupes is a bit on the harsh side. There is always the possibility of people committing fraud, but when they're close friends it's a bit more unlikely, and given that people in this forum have beaten the mags' times in E55/CLS55s and E63s/CLS63s by 0.3-0.4, I fail to see how it's "impossible" for a powershifted Z to improve their times by a similar margin.

rflow306

Enzom both of those guys had dr's to achieve the 10.9's and tremendous weather to boot, but you are correct the driver has a lot to do with it. On the street anything can happen and everything is believable.

It's also all relative, I have only seen in 11.40's and 11.50's in 75+ degree weather at Moroso by friends that can drive. I would go as far to say that I would not be scared to bet on them in a heads of race against the top two C6ZO6 drivers.

Improviz

Motor Trend periodically does standing mile runs on these cars. I could not locate one for an E55 or 63, but they did do one for a pretty fast (12.38 @ 114.5 1/4 mile) CL55, here:
http://www.motortrend.com/features/s.../photo_06.html

Results: standing mile in 31.9 seconds @ 164.1 mph (speed limiter was removed for this test by Mercedes)

Same test, Z06 (a slower example than others they've tested, this one ran a 12.0 @ 123.5 mph 1/4):
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...e_testing.html
So trapping at 10 mph faster, the Z06 pulled a full 2.6 seconds/10 mph faster in the standing mile. At 174 mph, 2.6 seconds translates to about 663 ft--about 37 carlengths at 18 ft/car. And again, they've tested others which trapped in the 125-126+ range, which would have resulted in an even larger gap, although the E55 they tested trapped at 116, so results might be mirrored if a strong E ran a strong Z, while a bit would be shaved off if a strong E ran a weak Z, but it would still be many, many lengths.

For comparison, MT ran a 12.6 @ 112.6 in the CLK63 BS they tested:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ies/specs.html (yes, this is a bit on the slow side compared to others' test results, as is the Z06's 1/4 mile, just wanted to have both for reference; other BS tests have it trapping at more like 116, but from above we can see that in a long-distance race the Z should run away from it).

That's the point: a 10 mph difference in trap (even 8, 9, whatever) translates to a *huge* difference at higher speeds.

05VENOM

Quite possibly could have gotten a slow one from the factory. 'They' say (if you believe the 'they') that 90% of a model will perform as suggested, 5% will perform below and 5% will perform above.
I had a C5Z06 that performed above. My current 63 also seems to perform above. No mag ever tested an E63 that ran a 12.1 but mine has. On the stock Conti's, with a stock intake and the recommended gasoline. So it makes you wonder.

Improviz

Sure, makes total sense....on a micro note, if you take a small electronic component like a 10 ohm resistor and measure its actual resistance, the odds are that it will *not* be 10 ohms, but rather something around this number...they actually put tolerance bands on them to tell you within what range of its rated value it will be. This is because in mass manufacturing, tolerances will always vary; all parts are rated +- some value.

Now imagine that every component in the engine has this same issue, and that in some cases it'll all combine to give average, in others below, and in others above rated horsepower, that each transmission/driveline will be different efficiency-wise than others, each tire will vary traction-wise from each other, etc....lot of variables here.

If you plot this out, it looks like a bell (what we call a gaussian distribution). The center of the bell is the high point, and is the "average" value, and then beyond that they use what is called a standard deviation, which is some value between which 67% of all samples will fall....at two standard deviations, it's something like 95%.

So, say you've got a 10 ohm resistor with a standard deviation of 5%, or 0.5 ohms....then 67% of production samples will be between 9.5 and 10.5 ohms, and 95% will be between 9 and 11 ohms.

What I've always wondered is: is the engine rated such that its advertised horsepower is the mean, or is it set up such that it's actually below the mean? I'd kill to know the mean and std deviation on these motors, but even if they managed to get tolerances so tight that they hit 5% standard deviations, pretty tight, on a 500 horsepower motor that's quite a spread...I'd bet it's probably smaller than this, but it still leaves a lot of room for variations in performance...and this is only looking at the engnie! Throw in driveline and so forth and it could get even messier....

But with modern production techniques, they may be able to get tolerances much lower....as I said, I'd love to know the mean and std deviation on these puppies' horsepower ratings...anyone??

05VENOM

Uhh...feels like I am back in college..those were the days.
But you actually make extremely valid points.

jrcart

To the best of my knowledge (and the pile of magazines I just thumbed through) C&D and R&T magazines usually publish corrected times. If I am not mistaken 573whpcls specifically stated NON CORRECTED times in more than one of his posts.

As for video proof, when I got into this pissing match last week people posted "video proof" only to find out on closer inspection the car was running slicks and only posted an 11.3 or 11.4...ironically the exact same E/T 573whpcl stated he runs on slicks in his stock Z06.

I would tend to believe a gut that actually owns a Z06, a 63 BS and a CLS55 as well as several track only drag racing cars over some nobody that is getting his info 2nd or 3rd hand from You Tube.

I am not going to get in the middle of this one again, I pissed some people of last week when I said that I too beat a Z06. All kidding aside, a stock Z06 is never going to post a low or sub 11.0 E/T's.

Rock

Hey Spero, good to hear from you. I assume you are still enjoying your ZO6?

We do have some new monster VRP E55s (Vrus/Victor's cars) on the road that appear to be taking it to the next level. I do not think that Jangy is us because Jakpro would make an "Owned" video of him if he was.

BTW, I encountered a new black Z06 on my way home from work today, while in my RS4. I was on a four lane road coming up to a stop light when a Z06 blew past me and merged into my lane. I switched lanes and pulled up beside him at the light and honked my horn.......giving him a thumbs-up. I then rolled down my window and said: "Dude!!! Sweet car...... have you had it to the track yet?" He responded by telling me that it was brand new and he was still in the break-in period. I smiled and said, "Cool, get prepared to be abused." Just then....... the light turned green and I launched my car at 5,500 RPMs as he just sat there. As all four of my tires were spinning I know he was thinking, "What a total dickkhead". Needless to say, I now have a Z06 on my "kill" list.

Improviz

Good point, but keep in mind that this is merely correcting to sea level, 70 degrees, etc...which are conditions that can exist in the "real world", so again, it's entirely possible to beat them under the right conditions (of course).

Personal attacks don't change facts, and you're not going to drag me into the mud with you. I'm using actual runs and measured data, so shooting the messenger won't work either....and I would also note that you are rather conveniently ignoring the posts of several other owners who have owned both of the cars being discussed in this thread.

Oh, and which post was it where someone posted a vid of a "stock" Z06 with slicks? Link, please.

Well, if you're simply going to dismiss any and all claims that don't dovetail with your preconceived notions, then there's no way to prove anything to you. I would also note that you and enzo don't seem to have any problem with anyone posting how their AMG beat the mags' times by several tenths, yet you both turn around and argue that for a Z06 to do the same is just absolutely out of the question.

The point is that other people on here claim to have witnessed stock Z06s in the low 11s, and have reiterated the results of rolling start runs, and you cannot simply dismiss their claims with a wave of the hand. When I see a video of a stock BS, a stock SL600, etc. pulling 125+ in the 1/4 or pulling a Z06 in a rolling-start run I'll be more than happy to admit I'm wrong--but I have yet to see any of those.

rflow306

same ole Rock.

04E55 AMG

Hey Rock,

Was at Summit Point a few weeks ago and was having a blast. The Z is made to be on a road course since on the street you can hit 60mph in first gear. It was fun hitting over 145mph on the straights without thinking about going to jail.

Will be back up at Summit Point in June and Chris will drive down with his 997 TT and be like the old days. My new DD is a 08 R32 and this think is just a blast to drive with the AWD. It has such a killer exhaust sound for a stock car.

Not up to speed with new stuff for the E55, I guess the K2 setup is old news but still was good for mid 11's and traps over 123

If you can make it Summit Point in June, PM me and I can give you more details.

Greek

enzom

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...78&postcount=2

If anyone wants to call BS on the guys that have run low 11's, you can. These happen to be their quickest runs. I have seen DrRon make a couple of 11.2 passes myself. And there is indeed a documented 10.9X pass on OEM runflats in a bone stock Z06. Again, if people want to believe that the cars are tweaked and not stock, people are free to believe what they want.

But for people who say it is impossible for a bone stock Z06 to run low 11's stock, I thought this list would at least help.

ItalianStallion

BlackBenzz was also there to witness these runs.

Here it is with DR's only