Improviz

As I said: when I previously offered to arrange a meetup between you and a Z06, you wussed out and refused to do it, just like you wussed out when challenged to go to a strip and hit 125+ traps. All talk and no show.

So you can talk trash about me all you like, but no stock SL600 traps at 125+. The ones in the mags didn't come anywhere near that trap, and so unless you've got something to the contrary to show, all you've got is talk.

Improviz

OK, here's some data for you--from VRP's website.

Mods I saw listed for your car on page 1 of this thread are:
So, let's look at each mod as spec'd on VRP's site:
ECU tune w/pulley:
Well, as I would expect from a 3 psi boost increase, that's a pickup of 35 over a stocker (most dyno between 420-430, but yours only got 409); unfortunately, they only show a post-pulley dyno, no baseline.

But let's assume that it got you all the way up to a true 465, just to be charitable.

To trap 130 mph, you'd still need 135 more.

So what does the 80mm get you:
80mm throttle body:
So again, let's give you the maximum gain they've seen...now you're at 495, let's assume that the K&Ns match VRP's claim for their airbox, which is claimed to get you 10-15 hp (this time they say hp, not rwhp, so we're talking around 10 at wheel), putting you at a charitable 505. How we doin?

Well, not so good. Assuming claims that most Z06s dyno at 435 rwhp are accurate, they have, with 3150 curb weight and 180 pound driver, 3330/435 = 7.65 lbs/hp.

If yours weighs in at 4300 with you on board, you'd be at 4300/505 = 8.48 lbs/hp.

Meaning that even if your mods made the absolute best numbers your vendor claims (and again, your stock dyno is 20-30 hp down on many other stockers I've seen) a Z06 would still enjoy an 10% horsepower/weight advantage.

There's your data. Where are you picking up that extra 100 rwhp?

Exodus

Yeah, I wussed out alright. How cowardly of me not to participate in a juvenile d!ck measuring contenst.

You must be retarded, *I* really don't care what you think, it happened, that's the end of the it. Let it go man, let it go.

Improviz

Sure, why show up and prove something when you can just sit behind a keyboard and claim it, in an imaginary measuring contest?

Hey, it's you who keeps attacking me and insulting me, but it's funny that in about 1/100 the time you've spent arguing about this, you could've long since actually shown up and settled it. I mean, so far I've seen you claim to have pulled two C6 Z06s, one in a stock SL600, the other in a stock E55, and to have beaten a heavily modded M6 well into triple digits--with your top down.

People here have had their disputes with jrcart, but I'll say this for him: he's going to show up and do some runs (hopefully some roll-ons as well)!!

transferred

Didn't Cylinder Head want to meet up with you in his M5 and you failed to do so? If I'm wrong I'll aplogise but stop with the insults on Improviz, he's a valued member.

ItalianStallion

I also challenged Exodus with my Z06...but I found out he's half-way across the US in Cali.

Jcart through out a challenge that he will get a stock Z06 from a showroom and that if someone can beat him with it on the dragstrip, he will buy them the Z06 all cash. If the Z06-driver loses, he will have to pay $5,000 to Jcart. I told him I will get him a driver to fly to Chicago or wherever he wants and we will set this up but that fell by the wayside...but moving on:

Improviz...usually I just skip over your posts because they are way too long and have too many numbers (no offense, it's all great, I just don't have the patience lol). But you continually prove members wrong and have been a vital part of showing that, through data, some things just don't make sense.

Again, if anybody wants to tear apart a Z06 with their modded AMG, then I'm game. Highway rolls though please, I can't launch this sucker for s***.

enzom

FWIW -

Improviz - We can't assume that a Z06 is going to trap 128. In the hands of an average driver, I bet you can see a loss of 5 mph in trap speed easily. When I say that the guys who pull these times/speeds in stock cars have mad skill, I mean MAD skill. If you take a look at the link (post 99 above) to the Z06 "Fast List", the average trap speed of the top runs for the 17 stock cars listed on stock tires is under 124 mph. The average 60' time is in the 1.8's. Yes, there are hundreds of runs among those same cars/drivers that trapped well north of that, but Jangy most likely did not run one of those guys in their cars. So, some of the best drivers, netting respectable 60' times on run flats, managed to trap an average of 123.X mph. Put an average guy in there who is getting massive wheelspin and granny shifting, and you have a car that probably traps at something just north of 121-2 mph.

My stock E55 will trap 117 + on just about any night. If Jangy's car is putting down another 50 rwhp, the cars should be pretty close.

It took me a LONG time to convince people on the Z06 boards that I would win 9 of 10 races against an average driver in a C5Z06 when I first got my E. They pointed to magazines, and power/weight ratios and how fast Ranger was in his car, etc., etc. I actually got some pretty nasty insults from some members. Now, most people understand, and the 55 gets respect.

I saw the vids of the CLS K4 getting spanked by a lightly modded Z06. I also saw the vids of the Kleeman K4 getting walked by a bone stock M6. IMO, something was wrong with both AMG's, likely a bad tune and or bad IC pump.

Would I ever put money against a K2 car vs. a Z06 in a highway run? Probably not. Do I expect that I would get walked pretty easily by a Z06 on the highway? Yup.

Do I believe it to be impossible for Jangy's car to have walked a Z06 driven by an average driver? Nope.

To the others - we need to be a bit less touchy about people not agreeing with our views. If you don't agree with this basic courtesy, then go @#$ yourselves.

ItalianStallion

I agree 100%!

Great post man.

05VENOM

Somewhere along the line this thread has made a turn for the worse. The guy who claims he beat a Z06, I'm sure he did. It's not like the 55 is a slow car. I chimed in when another individual claimed a C6Z06 could no run low 11's in stock trim. Well he is just absolutely incorrect. Me, Enzom and several others have not only seen it but know the owners of the vehicles. Now do these cars consistantly run low 11's no, but under the right circumstances they did. That's the only point I am making.

jrcart

I never threw out that challenge! If you would go back and read what I wrote I said I would buy a Z06 for the one loud mouth TMC M5 if he wanted to fly out here and if he could post a sub 11.50 E/T in a SHOWROOM STOCK Z06. I never made mention of beating my car as part of the deal.

Here's a link for you www.hooked-on-reading.com

jangy

Improviz: back off a second and quit being so emotional. I'm not gointg anywhere and I'm not just fighting you. I know what happened to me and you say what should have happened, so lets figure it out.

I never said you need to study design, I said you need to put a better design to your studies. Huge difference. I am basically saying that all of you data is scewed.

If you have truly studied statistics, then you are well aware of the variability you speak of and the fact that it is just noise UNTIL you have enough data to include or exclude the outlayers. We simply don't have enough data on this situation to make any blank statements like you have.

I see you challenged Enzon, but where is my invite? This started as a friendly post. I have never claimed a kill just for the F of it and don't know why you screwballs would think I would start now. It just lets me know why I don't want an American muscle car. I'll take the Bimmer and P-Car people's attitudes over this crap anyday.

jangy

By the way, I don't design stuff. I make injecteable drugs. Actually, I take data that is generated and defend it against the FDA.

Data can say just about anything you want it to say. If you allow it, it will tell the truth. If you twist it, it will tell a scew...

jrcart

I just bought the rights to the following domain names www peoplethatownamercedesbutidolizecorvetteZ06s com


www iwonderifmywankerwillfitinthetailpipeofthatZ06 com

and my personal favorite.....

www caniblowyouinyourZ06 com


It only cost me $11.95 each...by the looks of it I'm gonna make million$$$$

jangy

ROFLMYASZROFLROFL!!!

cte430

Hey, I must have missed that you got the Z - Congrats

ItalianStallion

Thanks a lot man!

Jrcart...as evidence by your language, arrogance, and Lamborghini doors...you're another example of "money can't buy class." Good luck with the BS!

05VENOM

So I am confused..are you for big Pharma or against them.

jangy

I didn't know there was a for or against. I work in the industry, but have no vested ties with any big pharma. In a nutshell, what I do is help people take a concept and put it through the paces that the FDA and other regulatory agencies have in place to see if it has potential to hit the open market. In the past, big pharma typically did discovery in-house, but have now shifted to more of a manufacturing role. Instead, they "buy" their pipeline and I help to make that transition seamless and visible to all that are involved.

Why confused?

Improviz

Hi, enzom

Actually, I was using 125 as the average trap, not 128, which I agree is high. And I agree with you totally that few Z06 owners are going to be capable of turning sub-12 1/4 mile runs simply due to the enourmous difficulty of launching a vehicle that light with that much torque and an IRS, just as there are few E55 owners who'll be running very low 12's stock. It's hard to get a torque monster out of the hole, full stop.

But bear in mind that we aren't talking a standing-start run here. In a rolling-start run, it's a lot harder to screw up. Not to say it doesn't happen, but the skill factor is a lot lower there than nailing a 1.7 sec. 60' time.

The reason I'm citing trap is because it gives an idea of the *potential* a vehicle has, and is a strong indicator of how a vehicle will do in a rolling-start run. Now, admittedly, at 40 mph the 'vette *should* be in 1st gear and so wheelspin could be a problem, but even if he spins a bit he should quickly recover, and from there he's got one shift at 61, one more at 91, and a third at 125.

Is it possible to blow them, or to short shift, or to put bad gas in the car, or to have a weak example? Sure. But the OP said that Z06s are "slow", which is patently ridiculous, and seems to think that they'd be toast against his car, full stop.

It is this with which I take issue...the data simply doesn't support this, period.

Does that mean that this race didn't happen? Absolutely not. But what I and the others are saying is that it wouldn't have this outcome with a competent driver at the wheel of a Z that didn't have serious mechanical issues. Even with a true 500 rwph, the E should still get pulled, although he would put up a damn good race...more like a slow walk than a run.

Exodus

Because it's actually hilarious to see you furiously typing away like your in Physics/Algebra class, with charts and numbers, relax, Urcle.


Good for JRCart I can't wait to see the videos.

Exodus

Nope, he said he would run me but he too lives across the country. And ItalianStallion as well.

I never said no, that said I try to attend every MB meet locally So if anyone brings a Z06 I'll play

jrcart

Here we go again...I'll be the bigger person and just not respond in a negative way.

Vic55

Z06 fast, E55 fast...so let it be written so let it be said.

Stock vs Stock with ALL variables the same (ie driver, shifts, weather, roads, launches, cupholders, tire pressures, gas, cd changer, nav, blah blah) ...

Z06 is faster.

With variables, not so much especially when you involve the mash and go qualities of the E55 versus the shift and go qualities of the Z06. As fast as the Z06 is, if the E55 gets a 1-2 second jump on a roller at 50- how long would it take to reel that car in stock vs stock and the Z06 driver was a perfect shifter??

In the real world, ie freeways, streets, turns, curvers, hills, parking lots; things really can change.

I raced a Subi STI at a stop light the other day in the M6-he was modded but how much I dont know. I started behind him at the light and he took the launch. I wasnt sure he wanted to go until I saw the puff of smoke out of his exhaust and his car hunkered down. It took me a few seconds to get around him, catch him, and then pass him in my M6. But by all accounts I should have killed him but I didnt. The reason why, he started ahead and launched before me. But Im sure he posted on his forum that he beat me or at least held his ground which he did but with advantages up front.

Lets keep this discussion rolling, just make sure it doesnt get ugly. I dont want it to become a sticky like the Jangy Half Way House

Improviz

And I'm saying that you're absolutely, totally wrong, and that it's your interpretation of the data which is "screwed" as you put it. If you take five samples, you'll get a particular mean with a looser standard deviation (or "variance" as you put it). If you take ten, you'll get a similar mean with a tighter std deviation. If you take twenty, you'll get something close to that mean with tighter standard deviations, but the difference between the mean/std dev from 20 to 10 samples will be smaller than that from 10 to 5 samples.

But you will NEVER "exclude such variability", full stop, and if you believe that you will, you need to go back and take another look at your Stat 101 text. ANY mass-manufactured product will have variances, period. Get back to the resistor example I mentioned earlier. If you take a billion samples, you WILL have a mean of 10 with a std deviation of 0.5

We certainly do. Go to the Z06 forum and take a look at the traps. If you're so inclined, plug them into Excel and have it give you the mean and std deviation.

Actually, it was Exodus. I believe that you guys already have something in the works, yes? Of course, given that your car is being modded as we speak according to you, this unfortunately won't validate your earlier claim, now will it? How very convenient--for you.

(sigh)...again with the personal attacks....you may well have done what you said you did...perhaps you raced Captain Hook for 50 miles or so? But in a rolling-start race, a well-driven, well-tuned Z06 would pull a car with the mods you list, using your vendor's best-case numbers.

And one more thing: snide personal attacks like saying anyone who looks objectively at numbers, time slips, scientifically conducted tests, videos, horsepower to weight ratios is "idolizing" whichever car the data show to be faster is uncalled for, not to mention a cheap ad hominem attack.

These forums are for the discussion and exchange of information, including unpleasnt little facts that you may not want to hear. Cheap shots contribute nothing.

Improviz

Or maybe it's because you know you're writing checks that your proverbial *** can't cash.

Me neither. In fact, we should post an invitation on the Z06 forum...I'm sure that plenty of Chicago-area Z owners would love to attend. The more the merrier!