ProV1

yea pricing has really tanked recently. besides the other reasons mentioned already, u also gotta remember that w211 body has been out since 03, and while i think w211 still looks very good, it is starting to look outdated and quite different than recent MB designs.

once the new w212s come out, expect the w211 prices to tank even more.

Wish4_e55Wagon

I hear you. But I don't think the new body style will help pricing on a wagon as much as it will on the sedan. Time is on my side.

valdeztke

Selling - as in you've seen them leave the dealership at the stickered asking price?

valdeztke

I have to disagree. If I wanted a nice WEEKEND TOY - it wouldnt be a 4,000 4-door sedan. This is a horrible argument that a person would buy a large sedan for a weekend cruiser.

valdeztke

You could also pick up a C6 Z06 for mid 50's and get 30 MPG on the highway.

Taximan1

Lease,Lease,Lease these cars... I don't care if your payment is $1800/mo., and you got the worst lease deal of the century. You WILL still come out ahead, in the end, way ahead.... UNLESS you plan to keep the car 10 years++. Thats how long it takes to overcome the negative equity, and have buying an AMG product make sense. At which time the car is so outdated, you'll be lucky to get $10k for it.

Quick story..I know a guy who bought a new 2005 CL65 (, yeah, I know).. He put $50k down(yes,$50k).. He's one of those guys who believes he doesnt "own" anything if he leases.. And thought, he would keep this car forever.. Well, as is usual things change, life changes, and he decides 2 years later, he wants something else..


After putting $50k down(again, $50,000 down ) AND Making his $2,800/mo. payments for 2 years... He WAS STILL $35,000 upside down in this car.. It's absolute financial suicide to buy one of these cars. Just my honest opinion.

Not to mention.. When you own one(at least speaking for myself). YOu tend to worry about mileage, keeping it in cherry condition,etc,etc with regard to resale.. When you lease, you can drive it, and enjoy it. With no worries..

Wish4_e55Wagon

We have kept both our cars for 10 + years. Our maintenance costs are virutally zero, get great gas mileage and we will dontate to charity shortly. Alot of people who lease these types of cars really aren't managing their money - they are buying into the grass is greener mentality. So their fundamentals are questionable. But I do understand, to each their own.

Taximan1

That just might be the most ridiculous thing Ive ever heard. And BTW, I manage money for a living.

"Our Maint. costs are virutally zero" - How so? An older car will need WAY MORE maint. as mileage increases. Much more than a newer leased one. Most of the time, you can skate through a 36mo. lease without even doing a brake job. So, please explain that statement to me? Also, how about your exposure to a catastrophic failure? What if your car blows a transmission out of warranty? Do you spend half the cars value on a new one, or junk it? Either way, its money gone.

"We dontate to charity" - Why anyone would do this, is beyond my wildest imagination.. Its nice to think that folks would do this for the "right" reasons. But unfortuneatly, most do it because they think its a great "deal" for them. It isnt.. First off, the law was just reformed, where you can ONLY deduct the cars ACV at the time. So, if you donate a car thats worth $3,000, and your in the 25% tax bracket. You just got $750 for your $3000 car.. Way to go!!!

"Alot of people who lease these types of cars really aren't managing their money - they are buying into the grass is greener mentality. So their fundamentals are questionable. But I do understand, to each their own." -


This was the best one of all, and Im still laughing at the ignorance behind that statement.. If we wanted to manage money wisely, we certainly would not drive ANY AMG product, thats for sure.. The question becomes. If you want to drive an AMG, How do you go about it the most affordable way?? The answer WITHOUT ANY QUESTION, is to lease.... All things considered, exposure to negative equity and/or loss of initial deposit due to depreciation, exposure to warranty term being expired, exposure to "worrying" about resale value. Leasing is better than buying in every category.. HOWEVER, its does differ from car to car.. If a car holds it value well (like a Toyota or Lexus). Then, leasing probably doesnt make sense.. But on any Mercedes product, there is no comparison.

Wish4_e55Wagon

Over reaction. Does that mean people who don't manage money for a living can NOT manage their money????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximan1

"Our Maint. costs are virutally zero"

You make good points. Rememeber, I said to each their own. My '92 Toyota truck is about as basic as you can get except maybe for the EFI. No electric windows mechanisms to break down, last I checked the window lever is working just fine and same with the transmission. Let's see, my maintenance costs: a few batteries and a new set of wheels here and there, they are pretty cheap at Costco. Everything else is original even the clutch. I've also had a few tune ups as well - typical preventative maintenance nothing crazy. It has 130K miles on it and counting. The same goes for our Nissan with 170K miles (original clutch). However, I finally had to replace the CV joints and upper and lower radiator hoses along with the thermostat and alternator recently, but that is all - not bad ehhh. Oh, those damn hubcaps keep coming off - must be a mfg defect or design flaw. There is really nothing in these cars that is too 'exensive' to replace at this stage of the game. Good point on 'catostrophic failure', I don't have an answer for that, but so far this method has served me well. I can also walk down the steet and get hit my a truck - can't do anything about that.

Hey, I know this girl wearing designer jeans, she has one for every day of the week and then some. Have you seen the price of these jeans lately? $135 is the norm

I never said leasing was bad and I understand there are pros and cons. My point is that she and her 'freinds' have a negative networth. They typically lease because they need a new car every three years to keep up with the joneses - again to each their own. I also have a coworker that 'purchased' his new cars. Four cars in eight years and he trades them in becase the dealer 'pays off' his loan for the car he is trading in. He's happy, because he gets a really low monthly payment. Last I heard he has like a 5 or 6 year loan? I believe this is typical behavior of a large segment of our society. Now throw in the existing real estate conditions, economy, etc and the over extended will have to start offing items of luxury to survive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximan1

"We dontate to charity"

Remember to each their own. My car is not even worth $3000, hell both cars (I do have a third btw) aren't worth $3000 combined. That said, I don't want the hassel of selling. I'd rather donate to a 'legit' organization and let them do their thing. You see, I once sold a well used car to a friend of a friend (Toyota). He didn't register it and he proceded to get tickets until it was eventually towed to a junk yard by the police. Nevermind that I filled out the release of liability at the DMV, the towing company still tried to collect the amount due because I was still the registered owner on record because this yahoo didn't register the car.

That said, I'm still going to make a self gratifying decision to buy/lease an AMG Wagon. I'm buying it for the HP and Tourque and I won't be over extending my self. <------note to Taximan: Don't read this as 'I'm teling you that are overextended'. I don't know you, you don't know me.

My third car is an 05 Lexus (bought used) and I do plan to keep it for a long time just like our previous cars. BTW, the rear electic motor on the power rear hatch on our Lexus RX went out - thank goodness for the warranty.

IGNORANCE??? Please, somebody give this guy a Klondike bar for showing his true colors. No need for getting your panties in a bunch without knowing anything about me.

EdoubleNickel

WoW^^^

Karlson

totally agree. Taximan might be smart guy, but his ideas just doesn't make sense. Who wants to care about stupid mileage? How many miles per month can you drive on a leased car? How much modification can you do on leased car? Yes, the price of cars are falling badly. Thanks to economic situation in this country. Those cars will hit rock bottom in a year or two, probably in mid 25k. It happened with 01-02 E55. No matter what, w210 e55s are running in $21-24k for past 8 months.

Last I checked New-car lease contracts limit the number of miles you can drive to 10,000-15,000 miles per year. For some people it is not enough

more here: http://www.leaseguide.com/lease05.htm

Andy0331

So what's your "money managing" opinion on people who buy used & miss the bulk of the depreciation?

You really think I would have been better off in a 36 month lease @ ~$1,000/mo? That's 36 grand GONE, if I buy at $50k & pay off in 36 months you still think my car is only worth 14k? I doubt it. It's still some form of saleable (depreciating) asset, that I can choose to keep & do with what I please.

Anyone who is paying for a luxury car is going to lose money... period. I just happen to be the guy who will buy your buddies CL65 for ~$60k & feel just fine about it; but I damn sure wouldn't lease a brand new one.

Taximan1

ok guys, LONG and final reply here...


Well, my opinion is this.. There are two BIG problems with "buying" a used AMG car...... Warranty coverage AND repair costs..Yes, you avoid the large depreciation curve. But.....

#1 Warranty - What do you do? Buy aftermarket, pay big money for it (additional to the cost of the car, that you'll never get back), and hope it covers your repairs? Take a chance w/o a warranty? (This works fine on a Toyota pick-up where a new trans. is $700. Not so good on an E55 where a new trans. is 15-20 times that amount) Or, do you Overpay by $10-15k, for a CPO car and defeat the purpose of buying used? And then what? Try to sell it, at the end of the warranty term? Good Luck with that.. (And BTW, you CAN lease a USED car)

Side note- Buying a CL65 (even for $60k) with little or no warranty would literally be financial suicide. And most people know that. Hence the reason these cars are tanking so fast, as the warranty term runs out.

#2 Repairs - Keep in mind, all repairs to a vehicle are "net" costs. And won't be recouped when the car is sold or turned-in. Furthermore, If sold privately. The maint./repairs will be "expected" by the potential buyer, at the time the car is "inspected". Brakes,shocks,etc worn = Value deduct. Not so with a leased car. They check for excess damage, and tire tread. Thats it.. Everything else is "wear and tear"..

These cars are VERY expensive to work on after about 40-50k miles. But virtually maint. free for the first 50k. (oil change/Service every 10k, but thats basically it for the first 50k). Which time period would you rather own it for?

With Leasing, You get rid of the car, just about the exact time period it will start to need big ticket repairs. (i.e., Brakes,Shocks,Struts,Alignments,Trans Service,etc,etc.), and avoid those costs all together. Also when you lease, you know your TRUE overall costs going into the purchase.. You know that if you pay $1,000/mo.x36mo. Thats your total costs, no matter what.. No worries of mechanical breakdown not being covered, no worries about big ticket repair items, no worries about being "upside down" in your loan.


Yes, I agree. The lease payments are ridiculous on these cars. They have to be.. The banks KNOW how quickly these cars depreciate, and residualize accordingly.

Now, if you drive more than 20k miles a year... I would SERIOUSLY advise you to buy another car (even if its a cheap 2nd car).. Doesnt matter if your Leasing or Buying, high mileage will kill the value of any Mercedes, and make it virtually "unsellable". These cars depreciate about 500.00-750.00(per thousand miles). Depending on model.


You really think I would have been better off in a 36 month lease @ ~$1,000/mo? That's 36 grand GONE, if I buy at $50k & pay off in 36 months you still think my car is only worth 14k? I doubt it. It's still some form of saleable (depreciating) asset, that I can choose to keep & do with what I please.

Answer: Yes, I do...
One important element your forgetting.. Interest Amortization.. Weather you lease or buy, the consideration is the same. About $250/mo. is GONE in interest, since the finance is front loaded. (even if you did/could pay cash, its still investment dollars tied up). If you financed $50k for 36mo. Your payment (at current interest rates) would be roughly $1,500/mo. So, your paying $500/mo. MORE than the lease payment (for the sake of this argument). $500x36=$18,000 in additional payments, over the 36mo. term... What do you think an average mileage E55 will be worth in 3 years? Remember, by that time, the new E-class will be out, and this W211 style, will take a huge hit. Think about it. You can buy a W210 (99-02) E55 for 15k or so, all day long, right now.... Not to mention, all the E63's will be coming back from leases, and will be pushed down into the 30's by that time. So just imagine what a 55 will be worth? high teens would be my guess..And not to mention, youve had to come out of pocket and extra $500/mo, for each of those 36months. You could have used that cash flow to do other things with. Your Robbing Peter to pay Peter. Another thing not considered is tax savings. On a lease, your only paying tax, on the payments. On a buy, you pay tax on the entire amout.. BIG difference, and something I didnt even add into these scenarios. But needs to be considered

Also, I used $1000/mo. vs. $1500/mo. for this comparison. But in "reality" there would be a MUCH larger spread. On a new car ($85k sale price), with $5k down on both the lease and finance being 36mo. A lease payment would be about $1,000-$1,200(with $5k down). Where a "buy" payment would be $2,400 with the same $5k down, for 36months.. So, the $1,000 vs $1,500 is way off, if we are comparing apples to apples.. You are comparing a basically new car lease payment, to a used car finance payment.. Total Apples and Oranges.!!!!

But I'll even go 1 step further.. Lets assume payments would be the same for a minute. $1000/mo.36mo. lease vs. $1000/mo. finance (would have to be a 60mo. term to get to that payment on a $50k loan)

If your payment is $1000/mo.(lease or buy, doesn't matter) Remember, Roughly $250/mo. of that, is going straight to interest. So the real "net/depreciation" cost of a lease. Is more like $750 x 36months, which = $27,000.. And you get to walk away...

On the purchase. After 3 years of payments, you still owe the bank roughly $23-24k... On a car thats now worth $18,000..


Also.. Have you ever tried selling a used AMG car? I have... Its not easy... Most end up trading in for wholesale numbers, or giving the car away privately.. Wholesale value (as of today) would probably be mid $20's, on an average mileage 2003 E55. And thats today.. Imagine what it will be in abother 3 years?

I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time here. But I hope some of you will consider my points, and advice. Im guessing I have a few years on most of you. Hopefully my experience/advice will be accepted. I dont work for a leasing company, nor do I benefit in any way, by promoting leasing. In fact, there are cases where leasing does NOT make sense.. I'm a big believer in leasing, IF THE CAR MAKES sense..

I look at probably a dozen elements before I decide weather to lease or buy.. For instance, I just purchased a 2006 Dodge Viper with only 300 miles on it(yes, 300). I plan to drive it about 1,000 miles per year. Now... This car, I would NEVER lease... It just doesnt make sence. Vipers hold value better, are easier to sell outright. AND this car will still have super low mileage in 5 years. So maint./repairs are not an issue.

It really does vary case,by case..But on most Merc's, it makes sense to lease.. Talk to a salesman at your local MB dealer... He'll tell you, 8 out of 10 people who "own" their 3(or less) year old Mercedes, Are in a negative equity position. BIG TIME.. Dont be one of them, thats all.

When all said and done.. The absolute best part of leasing a vehicle. Is knowing you will have a "new" vehicle every 3 years or so.. That single element alone. Is what drives most people to lease. And is absolutely worth something, by itself.

Karlson

Thank you Taximan for such long and interesting post. Your math is correct and many points are valid. So let's say I have $35k in cash and planning to keep a car for 3-5 years. There are bunch of 04-05 E55s with 100k CPO that run in that range. Do you suggest to lease a used E55?

Taximan1

At that point, its really a close call.. IF you can find a 04-newer CPO E55, for $35k, without high mileage, and without any "stories"(accidents,etc). I would say thats the steal of the century. I dont even think Manheim numbers are that low YET..

But hey.. If you can negotiate that deal, more power to you. I just question why the dealer wouldn't take the car to auction. I think these E55's will continue to depreciate rapidly. UNTIL, they hit the "teens"-low 20's.. If I were you, figure worst case scenario, that the car you describe. Will be worth $18k, 3 years from now. Which is exactly where leasecompare puts the car, after 3 years. Then, they will probably stay steady in the teens for a while (years). I mean, it gets to a point (when all these cars are out of warranty) where the depreciation STOPS. Simply because the parts that make up this car, are worth that kind of money (teens)..

So, yeah. That would be a GREAT (almost too good to be true) buy. I would buy it, at that point.. If its CPO.. If not, your back to square 1.. $35k cash for a no warranty E55? No thanks.. 1 Cat. failure, and the car would be worthless. And a warranty would be a fortune. Probably 10-15% of what you paid for the car. Is it worth it to run w/o warranty? Its a gamble..

machz990

The internet is a double-edged sword. With instant access to car prices around the country it has leveled the playing field. A car such as ours sells cheap on ebay and word spreads like wildfire setting a new bar. Buyers rant to sellers about seeing the exact same car they have selling on ebay for thousands less. This dilutes the used car market and causes excessive depreciation. The bottom line is you get what you pay for. If it's at auction its probably a lease turn-in which to me is like a rental. If its on ebay for cheap the car probably has issues. A really nice E55 will never make it to ebay or auction. It will be sold through networking to another enthusiast and both will get a fair deal for a really nice car.

Karlson

actually the car I am looking at got 45k miles and a guy wants $38k. I don't really think that $3000 difference from what I got and his price will be a big issue. Ebay prices bring price down. Especially with economic situation and $4.20 fuel prices doesn't help to sell these cars.

III II I I AMG

god i feel ripped off.. as some of you here know.. about 1&1/2 years ago.. i bought my 03 e55 with 35k mileage for 60k.. and mbz is giving me 30k for it right now trade in.. think im going to do it before it goes to the 20s

Blacksport350

Now the interesting thing is what happens to the W210 E55? With really cheap W211 E55s around, why would anyone buy a W210 for $21-24K?! Those cars are going to get driven down much lower.

Personally, I really don't care as I bought my E55 do enjoy and expect it like every other AMG car I have owned to drop $1000-1400 per month. It is sad, but it is the cost of owning these vehicles.

I would venture to say that if someone is trying to decide if they can afford to buy an AMG, the decision should not be based on the purchase price. It should be based on the whether or not they can afford the loss during the period they own the car.

JT3

Wow, that's encouraging if you have real world experience with all those cars. I'm in the market for an E55.

jmf003

Well, for what it's worth...

Because resale prices on AMG vehicles tanked, your buddy who bought the CL65 took a bath. But so did all the companies who offered leases on CL65 back in 2005. Because of that experience, the residuals offered on leases for AMG vehicles are much, much lower these days and the corresponding monthly lease payments are much, much higher.

Mostly to satisfy my curiosity I ran a hypothetical CL65 lease through Leasecompare.com. For a 24 month lease with a 12,000 annual mile maximum, the current lease rate is $5,143 per month with $30,000 down. That's $153,432 over 24 months.

Your buddy spent slightly less than that: $152,200 if I'm calculating correctly.

So while it clearly made financial sense to lease a CL65 a few years ago before banks adjusted the residuals downward, it's less clear that it makes as much sense today.

Taximan1

True. But its much easier for a bank to absorb those losses. I mean, the guy I am speaking of Isn't "exactly" stuggling to make ends meet. But that kind of loss on a car by any one individual. Is enough to make anyone ill..

When he bought it new. the dealer quoted him something along the lines of $2,800/mo. for a 3 year lease, WITH $7500 down... Which on the surface, sounds ridiculous. But in hindsight. He would have been much better off doing that.

So yes, the banks do take huge hits as well.. Its all a "gamble" as to what the cars future value will be. Thats all it is.. Dodge Vipers (for instance) are WAY under residualized.. Leasing one doesnt make sense.

Its amazing the way these things depreciate.. Actually the E55, and E-class in general.. Is one of the models, that DOES hold its value.. Anything "65".. forget about it.. Expect to lose 6 figures, if you buy it new, and keep it for 3years or more.

However, at the current price point (55-$65k). I think the CL65 is a great buy.. IF your ok with owning one, with expired warranty.

e55 baller

Based on the depreciation curves it appears that the E55 AMGs are unfortunately properly valued.

I bought a 2003 E55 61 months ago for 76K base w/o extra fees (80K all in) and it is supposedly worth 40% of original value or 32K. I would assume that these curves factor in new models coming out every 4 ~years.

If you take these curves and run a exponential proportional hazards regression the forecast (r2=99%) is:

Y 6 36% $28,800
Y 7 29% $23,200
Y 8 23% $18,400
Y 9 20% $16,000
Y 10 17% $13,600


In 5 more years a 65 AMG should be worth $25K...hard to believe.

https://mbworld.org/forums/automotive-leasing-financing/184677-mercedes-benz-lease-rates-march-2007-a.html


2007 CL600 Coupe /http://www.leasecompare.com/quick_lease_quotes.php?ModelYear=2007&MakeID=500&M odelID=236&StyleID=155&vehicle=2007+Mercedes+Benz+ CL600]Compare Bank Lease Programs HERE[/url]

24 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 53% of MSRP – .00405 Money Factor Buy Rate
36 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 45% of MSRP – .00370 Money Factor Buy Rate
48 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 39% of MSRP – .00370 Money Factor Buy Rate
60 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 33% of MSRP – .00370 Money Factor Buy Rate



2007 E63 AMG Sedan / Compare Bank Lease Programs HERE

24 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 67% of MSRP – .00290 Money Factor Buy Rate
36 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 57% of MSRP – .00315 Money Factor Buy Rate
48 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 46% of MSRP – .00315 Money Factor Buy Rate
60 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 40% of MSRP – .00370 Money Factor Buy Rate


2007 S600 Sedan / Compare Bank Lease Programs HERE

24 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 56% of MSRP – .00405 Base Money Factor Buy Rate
36 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 46% of MSRP – .00370 Base Money Factor Buy Rate
48 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 39% of MSRP – .00370 Base Money Factor Buy Rate
60 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 32% of MSRP – .00370 Base Money Factor Buy Rate



2007 S65 AMG Sedan / Compare Bank Lease Programs HERE

24 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 55% of MSRP – .00405 Base Money Factor Buy Rate
36 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 48% of MSRP – .00370 Base Money Factor Buy Rate
48 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 36% of MSRP – .00370 Base Money Factor Buy Rate
60 mo/15k mi – Residual Value 31% of MSRP – .00370 Base Money Factor Buy Rate