ChicagoX

I was originally going down that path. Your double-talk convinced me to pursue the refund.

You never even considered that the pulley was bad per our conversations (when I finally got involved). You were too busy pointing the finger elsewhere for me to feel like you would "step up." Never once was it stated that everything would be taken care of, no questions asked.

You asked me how much I paid for the item, I told you. There was no mention of a tool, shipping costs, or anything else. Making this up as we go along? For sure.

When I got a hold of you, after three weeks, you stated that this was the first you had heard of the issue. So which is it, were you working with Erick waiting on info, or were you not in the loop?

Three weeks is long enough to erode whatever goodwill existed towards VRP's intentions. You even went so far as to blame Vadim for not communicating the problem to you. Is that my fault?

"I'll make sure LET doesn't touch another VRP part.." was another phrase from you that comes to mind from our initial conversation. Quick to blame, slow to refund.

I was informed that you had dropped LET as a distributor, is that not the case? If it is, should I pursue a refund from a company that has NO chance of recovering monies from the manufacturer? I'm not that stupid, Vic.

If this had been handled appropriately from the get-go, I would be posting that up as well; I said so much in our e-mails. "I would like nothing more than to be able to post up how well VRP handled the situation" is what was written.


LET did just that on a set of headers. I'm not quite sure what other vendors have to do with the way you handled this deal, nor what misinformation has been posted.

ChicagoX

See my post #93. You can block the flexplate by stabbing a bolt or breaker bar through the access port on the underside of the tranny, but that's not the recommended method (ironically, due to the potential for damage) per the FSM.

Blaming someone for using the tool you provided is wrong, IMO.

al@cpt

Vrus,

I would also like to correct some of the misinformation.

No one had a bad day! No one is covering anything up!

The installation is not the problem. Look at what side of the keyway is damaged. If the pulley was not fully inserted on the crank it would be impossible to torque the bolt and keyway would be damaged back to front and not to the side.

The installation is very straightforward, unless your pulley requires different torque specs, it was installed properly.

al@cpt

If the pulley was not held during install, it would not suffer damage! If you check the factory service manual, there is only one way to install the pulley/crank bolt, and that is using a tool to hold the pulley.

MB_Forever

I really hope this issue comes to a conclusion soon, but it doesn't look like it's headed that way. We have one party saying it's an install issue and that they've installed the same pulley correctly on multiple cars with no problem. On the other hand, the other party says that it's a pulley issue and that they've installed multiple other pullies on many cars with no problem (Kleeman pullies, ASP, etc....). The situation is further complicated when both parties involved are great vendors and are highly respected by many. Maybe a third (neutral) party should examine the pulley and issue an opinion Unfortunately, only one side can be correct in this scenario.

vrus

Im not quite sure what you mean by this.. I refunded LET their DEALER price. They refunded you the PURCHASE price. I sent back 100% of the money for the product. I thought you had kept the waterpump pulley to use with your new pulley. .I didnt realize you took the WP pulley off also.

I dont understand what you are misreading about my post?? I gave LET back what they spent on the product, period.

YES. I said it was the first time I had heard about YOUR Issue. The only issue that was reported was about MARCUS'S pulley.. Your name didn't even get mentioned.. It wasnt until MARCUS emailed me that he said there was "ANOTHER CAR" that had the same problem.

Even Vadim thought we were all talking about Marcus' car originally because in conversations LET just said a "Customer Car".. Then the next day Marcus happened to call Vadim, so Vadim put 2 and 2 together and thought Marcus was the person LET was talking about.

Vadim was working with Erick waiting on info. I was dealing with MARCUS via emails about his situation. I didnt know your problem existed until Marcus told me via email. You know all of this because I told you this same stuff in email myself.

Again, the delays were on your side not ours. Vadim told Erick to send pictures, get the crank bolt and provide information. That was never done and that was what Vadim was waiting for to help you guys.

During that period, Marcus had started emailing me and he and I were discussing HIS situation, not yours.

EXACTLY! I was upset at LET because they let you go 3 weeks and didnt just give you the refund. WHY would they let it drag out for 3 weeks if everyone thought it was a bad product??? They should have given you back the money DAY #2 and then dealt with me.


Again, YES. Absolutely true.. I dropped LET as a distributor because I found out through my Pulley manufacturer in Australia that Jerry from LET called and tried to purchase OUR Pulley using the part # that was stamped on the front of the pulley.

I received an email from the manufacturer telling me that Jerry was trying to purchase the pullies directly and circumventing VRP.

What would you have done in my shoes?? I dropped them as a vendor because I determined at that point I could no longer trust them with any information or product.

I told Vadim, Sunil and everyone else involved to not provide any info or product to anyone from LET.


How much better could it have been handled?? Vadim asked for data and input and received NOTHING. What do you guys expect him to do when no one is providing him with any information??

The point was that if you had a pulley from another manufacturer and you called them and said the pulley was bad, you would have had to not only supply them with information, but you would have had to send the pulley back, wait "X" number of months and then hope for a refund.

It doesn't seem to me that anything I did or tried to do is making you happy.

vrus

Al,

Respectfully, did you see the pics I posted? Does it not look like someone sprayed or painted black paint over the damaged area? If that is just too many CSI episodes clouding my eyes then I will retract the statement, but that is what it LOOKS like to me.

As for the keyway how would it be back to front? if the key didnt go all the way down into the keyway and the bolt was torqued, it would notch the key. once the car was started, the pulley would be wobbling all over the place and at that point it would damage the keyway. Is that not right?

I agree the install is straight forward.. the torque specs are same as factory for ANY crank pulley on this car.

al@cpt

We did not spray anything on the pulley.

If they pulley would be wobbling "all over the place", there would be damage in other areas, and not just on the keyway.

I Like Soup

Just in case this was missed in the back and forth.

ChicagoX

Thanks for your input. I see your point.

At the point where I was forced into the deal, VRP offered to refund me directly, later retracting it. I was later told to get my refund from LET. LET had already told me that they had been dropped as a vendor of VRP products. At that point, I merely requested Victor honor what he promised "to get this deal behind us," since the whole thing "had gone on way too long."

Was the delay in reply during my install an attempt at punishing LET for the hurt feelings about the sour deal Victor has posted up? I guess we'll never know.
We discussed the ASP pulley kit coming with a WP pulley, but that's a trivial issue. Please keep the remainder of the funds, and next time I go to CPT, I'll grab the WP pulley as a souvenir.

Please be clear that I'm not looking for anything from you or VRP besides the pulley refund...the point of this thread was to avoid potential damage and angry modders, which is bad for everyone. It was no different than a recent thread about a failed WP pulley by another manufacturer on two cars, which prompted a redesign and recall within a week's time.

ChicagoX

Here's some pics of the other pulley. Please note the complete absence of black paint on the damaged areas.

In a couple, you can see the entire keyway bulging or shifted over.








Back of the pulley, purely cosmetic:

jangy

How do you explain the black stuff? I noticed everyone from that end has avoided even responding to it, since it will obviously tie them in to say conclusively. WHO PACKAGED AND SHIPPED THE PULLEY? Did they see the black stuff or not?


Not going to sit and watch this cloud, since there are just too many here that have seen and played with these pulleys. Just because the damage may not have occurred during the install process does not mean it was not an install error. I've seen the etchings in the nose of a stock pulley from just that.


Why not VRP and LET offer to pony up the cost to have the pulley forensically tested? It is done everyday and it will settle this once and for all. Screw a post manufacturing and release Quality Control test that was never validated. Give 4 samples, the two that "failed" a "normal" one and an OEM one, to the experts and see what they say. It will cost all of $500 to tell what the black stuff is. This would be an easy case....

jangy

I can see what you are talking about in the first pic.

Vadim @ FD

This pulley has the same problem as the other one. Lack of clamping due to not properly stretched crank bolt.

The woodruff key slot does not provide support for the pulley, bolt clamping does. When there is no clamping, then the slot is trying to keep pulley from moving on the crank and this is what happens. Unless it is made from titanium, woodruff slot will start to deform.

Properly installed this is how I could run an aluminum pulley on C32s.

The flakes you see on the last two pictures is from paint that did not stick to the rubber.

ChicagoX

I am the one who packaged and shipped the pulley, and I noticed exactly zero black stuff. For all I know, VRP put it there, since everyone's so eager to point fingers around. Look at the pics - does anyone think you can use a paintbrush to cover up that sort of damage ? Silliness.

I think a forensic test would be a great idea for all involved, especially if the costs are so minimal. I spent more than that on spark plugs trying to diagnose the zero power issue.

Let me reiterate. I am not seeking anything from VRP, LET, or CPT. I posted up what I thought was a legitimate concern for a $40k bottom end, and then the crapola started. Too many have sat silent while others were harmed, either by coincidence, neglect, or blatant criminal activity in one case. As soon as my header install is complete, I will post up what happened there as well. There were issues, as with any new product, and they were resolved in a professional, timely manner.

jangy

You would honestly be looking at about $5K by the time all the analysis is done and a report written, but i can promise it will hold up in court...

Marcus Frost

First of all, I am saddened that this issue has come to what it has. I'm not going to place blame to anyone for why it has, but I'd like to ask all involved parties to try and put the negative and ultimately destructive language aside and try and work this out like the community of enthusiasts we are. I think there are legitimate issues here but I don't think excessive harm has been done where we have a blown motor or anything to that effect so we aren't beyond being able to work this out rationally.

Vadim,

I appreciate you putting in your input. You took my calls and were kind enough to try some trouble shooting initially when we discovered this problem, which was appreciated.

However I need to ask you two questions with what you keep posting - and keep in mind, I'm trying to discuss here rather than argue (even though I realize my rhetoric tends to be somewhat argumentative):

#1 - You keep referring to improper installation - how are you saying this was improperly installed? Are you saying it wasn't torque'd to spec? It wasn't seated properly? Please clarify.

#2 - How can you possibly explain the logic behind a shop that has done dozens of these installs actually commit the same error twice on ONLY VRP cars? I mean if you knew CPT, and you can search on here to see his reputation, you would see where I am coming from. I asked for objectivity and even if CPT was ABC shop or XYZ shop... for an EXPERIENCED shop to commit the same error twice after having done DOZENS of the same straightforward, no-rocket-science install just doesn't make sense to me.

Please remember that RIGHT after your VRP pulley was taken off, Wayne had an ASP pulley installed and it did not wobble. CPT did not install my and Wayne's pulley's at the same time, and I have not asked but there may have been another install in between ours.

Finally, I'd also like to address your aluminum comments - not all aluminum is created equal and aluminum is subject to certain elements that can play into the theory that the center/inner pulley piece distorted during install causing the keyway to bell out slightly as well as unbalance the pulley assembly causing it to wobble and in the process press against the key in the keyway, damaging both parts.

-m

I'm scratching my head here.

stevebez

Not to get involved but Vadim is 100% right here. In my opinion the damage looks like it was caused by the bolt not being torqued down hard enough. I am a bit curious why the key exists in the first place. Is this for balancing and harmonics? If the pulley goes on and is held by bolt torque alone - the key is somewhat unnecessary no?

As for black stuff? geez there is crap load of black stuff in my engine bay...and it could get anywhere intentionally or by accident. Who cares?!!!

Move on... life is short.

DFW01E55

I've bought VRP parts and an ECU tune in the past and based on that experience and from what I've read in this thread, I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again.

That's not to say that I'm calling Chicago wrong, but it stinks for him.

dc63er

[QUOTE=ChicagoX;2913275]
Was the delay in reply during my install an attempt at punishing LET for the hurt feelings about the sour deal Victor has posted up? I guess we'll never know.QUOTE]

come on now chicago be fair on this point. LET went to the maker in australia to try and purchase vrus product directly. that is uncool and should be dropped immediately like they immediately were.

rflow306

Sorry but i don't buy that. The bolt alone will not keep the pulley from spinning on the crank especially on the type of balancer Merc uses. If that were the case you would need a lot more than two screw drivers to pry the pulley of the crank.

One such example is the crank pulley on a supercharged mini-cooper, it has no key way and is conical to provide the needed clamping force but it requires a hefty pulley extractor to remove.

juicee63

After reading this ad naseum , looks like most of the E55's have some wobble from minimal to harmful. Is this not just par for the course when "modifying"? We all take risk in search of more HP , spped , better times etc and it seems 3 weeks is a short time to comb over such complexities. I applaud Wayne and Marcus for bringing the problem to light but the finger pointing back and forth is elementary and unprofessional. I really have high respect for all involved and hope cooler heads prevail

Jakpro1

+1million on Juice's comment above.

I highly respect all you guys and hope this can be resolved and we can all go back to owning posers etc.

Wild that Al chucks parts. Even when I was a 18 yr old kid working at a shop, they always preached SAVE ALL OLD PARTS just in case.

Ken, my installer always leaves me a box of dirty parts in my trunk after each mod to chuck at my leisure.

This thread is so hot (angry) now, I want to be clear. THAT IS NOT POINTING A FINGER OR BLAMING ANYONE. I just was commenting on the procedure of throwing away old parts.

x-tian-230k

I have just a few comments reading through this thread.... As it is quite interesting...

Chicago-X... it certainly looks like you are in a situation that no modders should ever want to go through.... With that being said, I think you are getting extremely worked up and offensive towards the wrong company... I dont think you should be too concerned about if it were a bad puller or if it was a bad install. You should mostly be concerned about either getting your money back or getting a pulley that works. And in the end, that is what you got, an ASP pulley. But I dont see why your soo upset with VRP. The company you are endorsing that has gone miles and miles for you has in actuality let you down. They were suppose to refund you the money or get you up and running. As they are the one making a profit on your purchase. VRP sold LET the pulley and inturn LET sold it to you, of course with some mark up somewhere along the line. I guess it comes down to business ethics... By just reading the posts, it looks as though VRP HAS taken the loss regardless of bad install or bad pulley. You should look more into the companines you endorse as they dont have much business ethics (e.i going behind a companies back and trying to purchase their parts directly from the MFG.) The three week down time that you are so upset about was due to LET not getting your money back. They should have been the sole party responsible for the refund if they are as stand up as you say they are.

Looks like you got your refund, your beast is running strong... Thats the main point and the most important point!

Let the two companies duke it out...

Again this is coming from someone who has no connect with VRP or LET or CPT. Just a forum member.......

MB_Forever

The delimma is bigger than just ChicagoX and Marcus's pullies. There are serious claims and accusations being made here. If CPT, ChicagoX, and Marcus Frost truely believe that there is a design flaw with the pulley, then all other VRP pullies will likely have to get double checked in order to prevent potential engine problems. But to me, this scenario seems unlikely since Jangy's car under-went so many HARD miles on the dyno and on the track under extreme conditions with no aparent problems. Also, many other members seem to have installed that same exact pulley with no instances at all. I understand that CPT did a lot of pulley installs, but that doesn't mean there was no chance for error. We've all heard of even highly skilled doctors perform the same operation for 20 years yet still make a mistake from time to time. Sometimes even the best makes mistakes. Now, I'm not saying CPT made a mistake in installing both pullies, rather I'm saying that the logic of installing many pullies alone only makes CPT less likely to make a mistake, but definitely not immune from doing so. Unfortunately in this case, both experts seem to have opposing opinions: some say the problem lies with the install while others believe it's the pulley, and this of course, puts us at a dead-end