Cryo Fuel lines- Chilled Gas
08-18-2008, 08:43 AM
#26
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eh... not going to try to sell the idea... just giving my own experience on 4 installs. if it didnt have a positive affect, I wouldn't do it.
08-18-2008, 01:31 PM
#27
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i know you're not trying to sell this. however, butt dyno's are the worst kind of experience when advising on upgrades. i've watched time and time again people swear their cars or motorcycles are so much faster with their new mod only to have them proven wrong on the dyno or at the track.
08-18-2008, 02:21 PM
#28
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+1 on the dyno and track testing. A lot of times a new mod can have a placebo effect.
08-18-2008, 04:32 PM
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I've been thinking about this since this thread started...
What about creating a secondary fuel reservoir that holds, say, 1-2 gallons of gas at any given time. It's fed by the line off the fuel pump, through a port located at the top of one side of the reservoir. It then has an exit line with a port located at the bottom of the reservoir, such that the fuel has to traverse the length of the reservoir, and this port should be located on the opposite side as the inlet port, in addition to the opposite end. It should have a high point in the top, with a bleed screw and seals located there, to get the air out. This becomes a permanent part of your fuel system.
The reservoir should be large enough to accomodate an automotive a/c evaporator coil...nothing expensive, any old one off a Chevy geo or whatnot should work, as long as it's small enough to fit inside but large enough to make a difference. A diaphragm should be welded to the sides of the evaporator coil, and also welded to the inside walls of the reservoir, such that the only path for the fuel when under pressure is through the evaporator's fins. An automotive evaporator coil has enough fins, and should be large enough, that I don't believe this will affect fuel pressure. You weld freon lines from the inlet and outlet of the evaporator, and then run those to their own ports in the walls of the reservoir. The in/out fuel ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the original fuel lines, so there's no constriction, and the high/low refrigerant ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the car's existing refrigerant lines for the same reason.
Then, you run lines tying the evaporator in the fuel chiller into your existing freon system, and install a switcheable "Y" valve at the merge of the high pressure line. If you could figure out a way to have the valve be electronic and controlled by a switch inside the car, then that's even better. But either way, when not in use, you just turn the "Y" valve to open the regular freon system and run the air conditioning, and when you want to use the fuel chiller, you switch it to run the refrigerant through the evap in the chiller instead.
This wouldn't be much money, and would run off your car's existing freon system so there's no need for a second compressor, dry ice, or any of that. Because of the size of the reservoir, the fuel will have enough exposure time inside the chiller/reservoir to drop the temps down significantly. If you were at the drag strip, you could let it run for a few minutes, then shut the compressor down for your run, then turn it back on. There will be more than enough chilled fuel in there to carry you through the run, and worst-case, you'll never run out of gas anyway since it's a permanent pass-through in the fuel system. Additionally, I bet you could leave it on and, because of the relatively large size of the reservoir compared to the flow rate, it should still be able to provide cold fuel on an ongoing basis as you drive.
Location would be the problem. Inside the engine bay would be ideal, if there was enough room in there but I doubt it would fit. The other option is the spare tire well in the trunk, and then run the refrigerant lines back there. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of potential problems, like whether you'd need to disconnect or install resistors in all those refrigerant temp sensors and pressure sensors in the a/c system, but if you could figure it out I bet it'd work.
What about creating a secondary fuel reservoir that holds, say, 1-2 gallons of gas at any given time. It's fed by the line off the fuel pump, through a port located at the top of one side of the reservoir. It then has an exit line with a port located at the bottom of the reservoir, such that the fuel has to traverse the length of the reservoir, and this port should be located on the opposite side as the inlet port, in addition to the opposite end. It should have a high point in the top, with a bleed screw and seals located there, to get the air out. This becomes a permanent part of your fuel system.
The reservoir should be large enough to accomodate an automotive a/c evaporator coil...nothing expensive, any old one off a Chevy geo or whatnot should work, as long as it's small enough to fit inside but large enough to make a difference. A diaphragm should be welded to the sides of the evaporator coil, and also welded to the inside walls of the reservoir, such that the only path for the fuel when under pressure is through the evaporator's fins. An automotive evaporator coil has enough fins, and should be large enough, that I don't believe this will affect fuel pressure. You weld freon lines from the inlet and outlet of the evaporator, and then run those to their own ports in the walls of the reservoir. The in/out fuel ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the original fuel lines, so there's no constriction, and the high/low refrigerant ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the car's existing refrigerant lines for the same reason.
Then, you run lines tying the evaporator in the fuel chiller into your existing freon system, and install a switcheable "Y" valve at the merge of the high pressure line. If you could figure out a way to have the valve be electronic and controlled by a switch inside the car, then that's even better. But either way, when not in use, you just turn the "Y" valve to open the regular freon system and run the air conditioning, and when you want to use the fuel chiller, you switch it to run the refrigerant through the evap in the chiller instead.
This wouldn't be much money, and would run off your car's existing freon system so there's no need for a second compressor, dry ice, or any of that. Because of the size of the reservoir, the fuel will have enough exposure time inside the chiller/reservoir to drop the temps down significantly. If you were at the drag strip, you could let it run for a few minutes, then shut the compressor down for your run, then turn it back on. There will be more than enough chilled fuel in there to carry you through the run, and worst-case, you'll never run out of gas anyway since it's a permanent pass-through in the fuel system. Additionally, I bet you could leave it on and, because of the relatively large size of the reservoir compared to the flow rate, it should still be able to provide cold fuel on an ongoing basis as you drive.
Location would be the problem. Inside the engine bay would be ideal, if there was enough room in there but I doubt it would fit. The other option is the spare tire well in the trunk, and then run the refrigerant lines back there. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of potential problems, like whether you'd need to disconnect or install resistors in all those refrigerant temp sensors and pressure sensors in the a/c system, but if you could figure it out I bet it'd work.
Last edited by CWW; 08-18-2008 at 04:35 PM.
08-18-2008, 05:27 PM
#30
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I don't have any raw data, but I do know that colder fuel makes power. This setup has been around for quite some time and used by muscle cars. Here is a pic of the one I had purchased before. pop a brick of dry ice in this baby and hit the track!
I had this setup and never got around to installing it. I had a friend who swore by it. Hope this helps!
I had this setup and never got around to installing it. I had a friend who swore by it. Hope this helps!
08-18-2008, 05:29 PM
#31
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I've been thinking about this since this thread started...
What about creating a secondary fuel reservoir that holds, say, 1-2 gallons of gas at any given time. It's fed by the line off the fuel pump, through a port located at the top of one side of the reservoir. It then has an exit line with a port located at the bottom of the reservoir, such that the fuel has to traverse the length of the reservoir, and this port should be located on the opposite side as the inlet port, in addition to the opposite end. It should have a high point in the top, with a bleed screw and seals located there, to get the air out. This becomes a permanent part of your fuel system.
The reservoir should be large enough to accomodate an automotive a/c evaporator coil...nothing expensive, any old one off a Chevy geo or whatnot should work, as long as it's small enough to fit inside but large enough to make a difference. A diaphragm should be welded to the sides of the evaporator coil, and also welded to the inside walls of the reservoir, such that the only path for the fuel when under pressure is through the evaporator's fins. An automotive evaporator coil has enough fins, and should be large enough, that I don't believe this will affect fuel pressure. You weld freon lines from the inlet and outlet of the evaporator, and then run those to their own ports in the walls of the reservoir. The in/out fuel ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the original fuel lines, so there's no constriction, and the high/low refrigerant ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the car's existing refrigerant lines for the same reason.
Then, you run lines tying the evaporator in the fuel chiller into your existing freon system, and install a switcheable "Y" valve at the merge of the high pressure line. If you could figure out a way to have the valve be electronic and controlled by a switch inside the car, then that's even better. But either way, when not in use, you just turn the "Y" valve to open the regular freon system and run the air conditioning, and when you want to use the fuel chiller, you switch it to run the refrigerant through the evap in the chiller instead.
This wouldn't be much money, and would run off your car's existing freon system so there's no need for a second compressor, dry ice, or any of that. Because of the size of the reservoir, the fuel will have enough exposure time inside the chiller/reservoir to drop the temps down significantly. If you were at the drag strip, you could let it run for a few minutes, then shut the compressor down for your run, then turn it back on. There will be more than enough chilled fuel in there to carry you through the run, and worst-case, you'll never run out of gas anyway since it's a permanent pass-through in the fuel system. Additionally, I bet you could leave it on and, because of the relatively large size of the reservoir compared to the flow rate, it should still be able to provide cold fuel on an ongoing basis as you drive.
Location would be the problem. Inside the engine bay would be ideal, if there was enough room in there but I doubt it would fit. The other option is the spare tire well in the trunk, and then run the refrigerant lines back there. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of potential problems, like whether you'd need to disconnect or install resistors in all those refrigerant temp sensors and pressure sensors in the a/c system, but if you could figure it out I bet it'd work.
What about creating a secondary fuel reservoir that holds, say, 1-2 gallons of gas at any given time. It's fed by the line off the fuel pump, through a port located at the top of one side of the reservoir. It then has an exit line with a port located at the bottom of the reservoir, such that the fuel has to traverse the length of the reservoir, and this port should be located on the opposite side as the inlet port, in addition to the opposite end. It should have a high point in the top, with a bleed screw and seals located there, to get the air out. This becomes a permanent part of your fuel system.
The reservoir should be large enough to accomodate an automotive a/c evaporator coil...nothing expensive, any old one off a Chevy geo or whatnot should work, as long as it's small enough to fit inside but large enough to make a difference. A diaphragm should be welded to the sides of the evaporator coil, and also welded to the inside walls of the reservoir, such that the only path for the fuel when under pressure is through the evaporator's fins. An automotive evaporator coil has enough fins, and should be large enough, that I don't believe this will affect fuel pressure. You weld freon lines from the inlet and outlet of the evaporator, and then run those to their own ports in the walls of the reservoir. The in/out fuel ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the original fuel lines, so there's no constriction, and the high/low refrigerant ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the car's existing refrigerant lines for the same reason.
Then, you run lines tying the evaporator in the fuel chiller into your existing freon system, and install a switcheable "Y" valve at the merge of the high pressure line. If you could figure out a way to have the valve be electronic and controlled by a switch inside the car, then that's even better. But either way, when not in use, you just turn the "Y" valve to open the regular freon system and run the air conditioning, and when you want to use the fuel chiller, you switch it to run the refrigerant through the evap in the chiller instead.
This wouldn't be much money, and would run off your car's existing freon system so there's no need for a second compressor, dry ice, or any of that. Because of the size of the reservoir, the fuel will have enough exposure time inside the chiller/reservoir to drop the temps down significantly. If you were at the drag strip, you could let it run for a few minutes, then shut the compressor down for your run, then turn it back on. There will be more than enough chilled fuel in there to carry you through the run, and worst-case, you'll never run out of gas anyway since it's a permanent pass-through in the fuel system. Additionally, I bet you could leave it on and, because of the relatively large size of the reservoir compared to the flow rate, it should still be able to provide cold fuel on an ongoing basis as you drive.
Location would be the problem. Inside the engine bay would be ideal, if there was enough room in there but I doubt it would fit. The other option is the spare tire well in the trunk, and then run the refrigerant lines back there. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of potential problems, like whether you'd need to disconnect or install resistors in all those refrigerant temp sensors and pressure sensors in the a/c system, but if you could figure it out I bet it'd work.
08-18-2008, 06:25 PM
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08-18-2008, 07:03 PM
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08-18-2008, 07:19 PM
#34
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Thanks Fellas...I will definitely give this a try!!!
Very true. but the aluminum one I pictured showed has been used with efi. The one made by morosso leaks because it was not made for higher fuel pressure. I would make the install extra clean and weld an AN fitting to the inlet and outlet of the cool can. and run braided nomex fuel lines.
08-18-2008, 09:28 PM
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Check these guys out : http://www.killerchiller.com/
08-19-2008, 01:44 AM
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damn that is expensive. my cooler setup ran under $100 bux.
People have always wanted to see dyno results... this has me thinking that I should step up to the plate & do some testing... (test engineer here...)
thinking of yanking out the cooler so I can better control the air flow (I'd have it off to the side where I can put a fan directly on it to speed the cooldown), measure the inlet & outlet temps to see how much of a drop there is with a given airflow... (meaning the 18" fan sitting on the floor connected to a dimmer switch that is in the living room). Measure how long it takes to drop to it's max delta, then once I know that I can use that to do the testing with.
my thoughts are to (since my rails already wrapped) test with cooler 1st by setting the dyno to a known speed in 3rd or 4th gear and measuring the HP/tq after 2 or 3 minutes of running at a fixed rpm (dyno shop fan in front of course for cooling). IIRC a dyno should be able to do this at a fixed speed. Please someone set me straight if I'm wrong. Once the motor has run for the spec'd period, I'd kick the fan on to bring it down to it's lowest temp and start logging data at the same time. The thought here is to try & find out what the fuel temp does to the power, whether it goes up or down, and to the timing during the same run. Once I have that info then drop the rpms to about 2k and then run the full dyno sweep.
After that, pull the cooler out & pull the tape off the rail and repeat the tests. That would give a rough idea of what temp is ideal for the most hp/tq with the given ambient temp conditions and then a full sweep.
I'd need a couple of temp sensors, connectors & the 1/8th npt fuel line adapters for before & after the cooler, 18" of FI fuel line, access to a VAG-Com diag tool to log the timing during the runs (would have to find someone with one as $350~400 bux to spend on 1 right now is out of the question), DAQ card & software (which I have access to and can write the program in LabView for the temp sensors). I think I can get the hardware for the test for under $30 bux and should be able to do the dyno for $100~125 I'm guessing. I think I covered what the plan would be...
thoughts?
On another note... today was the 1st day with the cooler & wrap together (did the wrap on saturday but didnt drive much) and the difference is noticeable. This is motivating me more to find the answers...
People have always wanted to see dyno results... this has me thinking that I should step up to the plate & do some testing... (test engineer here...)
thinking of yanking out the cooler so I can better control the air flow (I'd have it off to the side where I can put a fan directly on it to speed the cooldown), measure the inlet & outlet temps to see how much of a drop there is with a given airflow... (meaning the 18" fan sitting on the floor connected to a dimmer switch that is in the living room). Measure how long it takes to drop to it's max delta, then once I know that I can use that to do the testing with.
my thoughts are to (since my rails already wrapped) test with cooler 1st by setting the dyno to a known speed in 3rd or 4th gear and measuring the HP/tq after 2 or 3 minutes of running at a fixed rpm (dyno shop fan in front of course for cooling). IIRC a dyno should be able to do this at a fixed speed. Please someone set me straight if I'm wrong. Once the motor has run for the spec'd period, I'd kick the fan on to bring it down to it's lowest temp and start logging data at the same time. The thought here is to try & find out what the fuel temp does to the power, whether it goes up or down, and to the timing during the same run. Once I have that info then drop the rpms to about 2k and then run the full dyno sweep.
After that, pull the cooler out & pull the tape off the rail and repeat the tests. That would give a rough idea of what temp is ideal for the most hp/tq with the given ambient temp conditions and then a full sweep.
I'd need a couple of temp sensors, connectors & the 1/8th npt fuel line adapters for before & after the cooler, 18" of FI fuel line, access to a VAG-Com diag tool to log the timing during the runs (would have to find someone with one as $350~400 bux to spend on 1 right now is out of the question), DAQ card & software (which I have access to and can write the program in LabView for the temp sensors). I think I can get the hardware for the test for under $30 bux and should be able to do the dyno for $100~125 I'm guessing. I think I covered what the plan would be...
thoughts?
On another note... today was the 1st day with the cooler & wrap together (did the wrap on saturday but didnt drive much) and the difference is noticeable. This is motivating me more to find the answers...
08-19-2008, 08:42 AM
#37
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SL600
Check these guys out : http://www.killerchiller.com/
That's pretty similar to my thoughts, except it appears that their chiller uses its own onboard compressor and runs off the vehicle's electrical system, where I was thinking about using the car's own a/c compressor. Just having a separate compressor might be simpler actually, especially for trunk-mounting.
Wonder what they charge for that? That looks like it would fit nicely in the spare tire well...who's guna be the first to give it a shot?
08-19-2008, 09:01 AM
#38
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That's pretty similar to my thoughts, except it appears that their chiller uses its own onboard compressor and runs off the vehicle's electrical system, where I was thinking about using the car's own a/c compressor. Just having a separate compressor might be simpler actually, especially for trunk-mounting.
Wonder what they charge for that? That looks like it would fit nicely in the spare tire well...who's guna be the first to give it a shot?
Wonder what they charge for that? That looks like it would fit nicely in the spare tire well...who's guna be the first to give it a shot?
08-20-2008, 08:30 AM
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08-20-2008, 01:29 PM
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it was a while ago, so i no longer recall all the specifics. it's around here if anyone wants to search...
09-27-2008, 01:24 AM
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well, I dyno'd my fuel cooler today and there is a definate bump in power. did 2 runs with the fuel rail wrap on & no cooler, then 2 runs with wrap & cooler. All were done after a 1~2 minute loaded run at 3500 rpms or so to heat soak the motor. While i have yet to go thru the data... averaging the peak hp on both sets of runs yielded a 9.5% bump in power.
09-27-2008, 07:59 AM
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I've been thinking about this since this thread started...
What about creating a secondary fuel reservoir that holds, say, 1-2 gallons of gas at any given time. It's fed by the line off the fuel pump, through a port located at the top of one side of the reservoir. It then has an exit line with a port located at the bottom of the reservoir, such that the fuel has to traverse the length of the reservoir, and this port should be located on the opposite side as the inlet port, in addition to the opposite end. It should have a high point in the top, with a bleed screw and seals located there, to get the air out. This becomes a permanent part of your fuel system.
The reservoir should be large enough to accomodate an automotive a/c evaporator coil...nothing expensive, any old one off a Chevy geo or whatnot should work, as long as it's small enough to fit inside but large enough to make a difference. A diaphragm should be welded to the sides of the evaporator coil, and also welded to the inside walls of the reservoir, such that the only path for the fuel when under pressure is through the evaporator's fins. An automotive evaporator coil has enough fins, and should be large enough, that I don't believe this will affect fuel pressure. You weld freon lines from the inlet and outlet of the evaporator, and then run those to their own ports in the walls of the reservoir. The in/out fuel ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the original fuel lines, so there's no constriction, and the high/low refrigerant ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the car's existing refrigerant lines for the same reason.
Then, you run lines tying the evaporator in the fuel chiller into your existing freon system, and install a switcheable "Y" valve at the merge of the high pressure line. If you could figure out a way to have the valve be electronic and controlled by a switch inside the car, then that's even better. But either way, when not in use, you just turn the "Y" valve to open the regular freon system and run the air conditioning, and when you want to use the fuel chiller, you switch it to run the refrigerant through the evap in the chiller instead.
This wouldn't be much money, and would run off your car's existing freon system so there's no need for a second compressor, dry ice, or any of that. Because of the size of the reservoir, the fuel will have enough exposure time inside the chiller/reservoir to drop the temps down significantly. If you were at the drag strip, you could let it run for a few minutes, then shut the compressor down for your run, then turn it back on. There will be more than enough chilled fuel in there to carry you through the run, and worst-case, you'll never run out of gas anyway since it's a permanent pass-through in the fuel system. Additionally, I bet you could leave it on and, because of the relatively large size of the reservoir compared to the flow rate, it should still be able to provide cold fuel on an ongoing basis as you drive.
Location would be the problem. Inside the engine bay would be ideal, if there was enough room in there but I doubt it would fit. The other option is the spare tire well in the trunk, and then run the refrigerant lines back there. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of potential problems, like whether you'd need to disconnect or install resistors in all those refrigerant temp sensors and pressure sensors in the a/c system, but if you could figure it out I bet it'd work.
What about creating a secondary fuel reservoir that holds, say, 1-2 gallons of gas at any given time. It's fed by the line off the fuel pump, through a port located at the top of one side of the reservoir. It then has an exit line with a port located at the bottom of the reservoir, such that the fuel has to traverse the length of the reservoir, and this port should be located on the opposite side as the inlet port, in addition to the opposite end. It should have a high point in the top, with a bleed screw and seals located there, to get the air out. This becomes a permanent part of your fuel system.
The reservoir should be large enough to accomodate an automotive a/c evaporator coil...nothing expensive, any old one off a Chevy geo or whatnot should work, as long as it's small enough to fit inside but large enough to make a difference. A diaphragm should be welded to the sides of the evaporator coil, and also welded to the inside walls of the reservoir, such that the only path for the fuel when under pressure is through the evaporator's fins. An automotive evaporator coil has enough fins, and should be large enough, that I don't believe this will affect fuel pressure. You weld freon lines from the inlet and outlet of the evaporator, and then run those to their own ports in the walls of the reservoir. The in/out fuel ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the original fuel lines, so there's no constriction, and the high/low refrigerant ports on the reservoir should be the same size as the car's existing refrigerant lines for the same reason.
Then, you run lines tying the evaporator in the fuel chiller into your existing freon system, and install a switcheable "Y" valve at the merge of the high pressure line. If you could figure out a way to have the valve be electronic and controlled by a switch inside the car, then that's even better. But either way, when not in use, you just turn the "Y" valve to open the regular freon system and run the air conditioning, and when you want to use the fuel chiller, you switch it to run the refrigerant through the evap in the chiller instead.
This wouldn't be much money, and would run off your car's existing freon system so there's no need for a second compressor, dry ice, or any of that. Because of the size of the reservoir, the fuel will have enough exposure time inside the chiller/reservoir to drop the temps down significantly. If you were at the drag strip, you could let it run for a few minutes, then shut the compressor down for your run, then turn it back on. There will be more than enough chilled fuel in there to carry you through the run, and worst-case, you'll never run out of gas anyway since it's a permanent pass-through in the fuel system. Additionally, I bet you could leave it on and, because of the relatively large size of the reservoir compared to the flow rate, it should still be able to provide cold fuel on an ongoing basis as you drive.
Location would be the problem. Inside the engine bay would be ideal, if there was enough room in there but I doubt it would fit. The other option is the spare tire well in the trunk, and then run the refrigerant lines back there. I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch of potential problems, like whether you'd need to disconnect or install resistors in all those refrigerant temp sensors and pressure sensors in the a/c system, but if you could figure it out I bet it'd work.
09-27-2008, 09:09 AM
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Well thought out solution..........one BIG problem, the reason fuel tanks are located away from the engine is to prevent incinerating the car and its occupants in the event of a collision. Having a 2 gallon container of liqiud explosive in the engine compartment in nuts. Having it near the battery in the wheel well might be equally problematic (and illegal).
I still think that, if you're going to design an active powered fuel chiller, the way to go is to have the fuel itself seep through an evap rather than trying to chill the lines from the outside. It will work exponentially better.
09-28-2008, 12:17 AM
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