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Good luck with that, keep us posted. Just remember, with more boost comes more heat and the faster your engine has to spin that sc. At a certain point (I don't know where), increasing boost will start to lose power due to heat and parasitic loss.
Yes, agreed.. With every MOD/gain there is usually a trade.. More power=need traction. To much power=more fuel.. To much boost and you need more cooling.. Part of the game With S/C engines,, the cam is not quit as important as with N/A motors.. Head efficiency is!! It does not hurt idle either and can really make the S/C very efficient to make nice gains.. Dollar for dollar,, I will gain way more power on head work and boost on top of the basic 3 bolt ons (Pulley, Throttle body and headers)!! Yes, that is my direction ,, until more cam info comes out..
Also, at a certian point on extra boost,, you will need more Octane.. My route may work grerat or it may not work but the more info we complie as a team,, the faster/ safer we will all go.. The more of us going fast,, the more tuners will develop parts and everyone will save and make money!!
I feel PTE is the best option to making the best cam possible right now ,,based on what I have seen in this thread.. Just my 2 cents.. This is one case where sloppy seconds is a good thing.. Rather have the 2cnd design than the first.. Until then,, great heads and more boost for me! If I have to add a heat exchanger ,, that is fine too.
My whole point is based on the cam specs/info posted above.. I would rather At this point put 4000 grand into great head flow and more boost verses adding a little duration and maybe a degree or two of LSA.. From the cam info posted above,, you should not even need a tune.. We are talking very, very small cams and very small room to be aggressive,, even with our aftermarket options. You have to read real hard what PTE posted. He left some really great hints/info in his post.. You either believe it or not.. I believe!
Between Patrick and I, we have TESTED and looked at all the available cams including (Schrick, Evotech, SLR, Kleemann).
Schrick = Evotech = Kleemann.
SLR is slightly differnet.
Patrick and I have corresponded for quite a few years while being members on this forum. He is one of those guys out of a group of people on this board that has become a friend of mine.
We had talked for a while about making a more aggressive camshaft profile and using his engine know-how he came up with the specs for VRP.
Let me be 100% clear on this.. there is NO ROOM to go any more aggressive than we have on the camshaft profile. Other than modifying overlap there isn't anything else to be done to make a more powerful version of what we have already.
Unless you want to open up the motor and fly-cut the pistons you can't do much more.. there was no point in creating something that falls into this category because 95% of the people would not be able to use it.
In my case, I am looking at a more radical cam because I will be creating another set of pistons with different relief areas and they will be fly-cut. There will be a new version of the camshaft which will be suited for this special case.
In my case, I am looking at a more radical cam because I will be creating another set of pistons with different relief areas and they will be fly-cut. There will be a new version of the camshaft which will be suited for this special case.
all very strange: SLR's Exhaust lift .410 is lower than 55K's .418
As I mentioned he said he set them all up at 108 degrees. I don't know if this has any affect on the readings. I seem to recall seeing specs of 112 or 114 degree centerline in other posts. I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to cams. I was hoping someone with more knowledge would step in and decipher what we are looking at but it appears that isn't going to happen. I'm sure VRP is correct that they have the most aggressive (and possibly) best M113 cams but I'd still like to know what all the different stock MB specs mean just from a curiosity and knowledge standpoint. Wheres Grumpy666 or Bleek when you need em?
As I mentioned he said he set them all up at 108 degrees. I don't know if this has any affect on the readings. I seem to recall seeing specs of 112 or 114 degree centerline in other posts. I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to cams. I was hoping someone with more knowledge would step in and decipher what we are looking at but it appears that isn't going to happen. I'm sure VRP is correct that they have the most aggressive (and possibly) best M113 cams but I'd still like to know what all the different stock MB specs mean just from a curiosity and knowledge standpoint. Wheres Grumpy666 or Bleek when you need em?
112 and 114 numbers you recall are LobeSeparationAngles that is the distance between center axis of Intake and Exhaust cams. 108 Degree Intake starting point means nothing. he simply choose to measure by setting all cams at the same distance from TDC (Centerline is the distance between the cam's center axis and TopDeadCenter) : in this way you see immediately the difference in advancing between one cam and the other.
Take 10.3 Advance for SLR vs 11.8 for 55K: doesn't mean they really are those degrees advanced. means only that 55k is 1.5dg more advanced than SLR. In real world the indexing of cam timing (whether 108 or another position) is given by Merc's mounting instruction.
The only number that doesn't sound strange is CAM rocker ratio: 1.49 is the same you get confronting with Schrick data posted by me: they give both Cam 7.25mm and Valve lift 10.8 and their ratio 10.8/7.25 =1.49
- all 55 engine's cams shows negative value for overlap, even at lift lower than .050
- reduced intake duration of SLR vs 55K !
- lower Exh lift of SLR vs 55K (.410 vs .418) and same intake lift
-SLR is 1.5dg more retarded than 55k and Intake closes also earlier
-Exh opens later ! .. even if closes later too.
don't know how can it get higher rpm in that way ... weren't for that LSA slightly lower.
starting from the fact that SLR's cams are better performing than 55K's cams
and that, roughly said
-SLR gains about 400rpm in the high band;
- about 120HP and 80Nm Torque while loosing a few in the low band.
Yes, we know that not all this is due to cams only but, if we assume that cams play an important role,
the following CONSIDERATIONS should rule:
OVERLAP & LSA
more Overlap of SLR is good (emission constraint to have it still higher?)
lower LSA 118.3of SLR vs 119.3 of 55K is good, even if obtained with Less Intake duration and, obviously, more overlap.
INTAKE
· 3dg more Intake open advancing of Slr is good
· earlier Intake Closing, is not bad (need full compression phase to keep low band safe )
· so, less Intake Duration 182.9 SLR vs 55K’s 186.6, (at the expense of an earlier Intake Closing) is not bad, or more duration is not desirable!
EXHAUST
· more Exhaust Duration of SLR (196 vs 193.9) is good -and maybe is a must- especially by means of a later closing than an earlier opening
· Later exhaust closing , till near Overlap, is good
· Earlier Exhaust opening is maybe NOT desirable(causing too much leakage -and low band loss- during the Power phase)
LIFT
· Exhaust LIFT is surprisingly LOWER for SLR .410 vs .418 of 55K: so, HIGH EXH. LIFT IS NOT GOOD. maybe this is also a must !
· Intake LIFT is the same .417, therefore, lower is not good but, maybe, higher desirable (emission constraint to have it higher?)
edit:
so, for any given duration value, seems this trade-off is prefereable: larger Overlap at earlier Intake opening and later Exhaust closing (with no need to delay intake closing and advance Exhaust opening)
, versus a setting with prolongued intake and an earlier Exhaust opening
Hello Again:The stock Rocker arm Ratio is 1.49 to 1 I know it doesn't seem like much lift ,but you have (2) 1.70" intake valves and a single 1.496" exhaust.
Going from .288 to .295 with a rocker ratio of 1.49 , is a good jump. The VRP cam has a bit more lift. And what we sometime forget to account for is the Hydrulic lifter tip built into the other end of the roller rocker. Speaking of rocker tips . Remember it doesn't just go straight up & Down. It Really Swings an Arc. It Contacts bias to the outside edge of the valve stem tip , as it swings downward , it moves across over to the center then to the inside edge. Over a long period of time it will ever so slightly wear the valve guide. This is really cool stuff. So Multi valves , low lift , hi duration, Keeps the wear minumized . Think about the latest 4 valve dual over head cam , Cam direct contact to the valve stem bucket. A lot less parts ! plus they now move the cam timing with Hydrulic slave actuators. now I'm off subject again Cheers _PTEngineering
I was rereading this post and I think PTE may have inadvertently switched the valve sizes up. The sizes look correct but I'm pretty sure the exhaust valve is the larger valve and the intakes are the smaller valves.
Last edited by suicidal4life; 09-27-2008 at 06:13 PM.
so, our stock are 2x 38mm intake and 1x 43 exhaust
those who p&p heads, upgraded till a max allowed of 2x39 and 1x43.5mm
just wondering if shouldn't have been better use that free room for a bigger exhaust, say 45mm , while keeping intake stock ... as we already have 2x intake but one only exhaust ?
I'll have to check but I think the centerline changes for each cam. Or I may be confusing with lobe separation.
Originally Posted by suicidal4life
Looking at the stock setup I don't see how this would be possible without some serious redesign and cash layout. It's not like a Chevy small block where you can change the ratio (within reason) and just allow the pushrod angle to change a bit to make up for it.
BTW since everyone keeps asking about Cam spec's I dropped some cams off at the local cam grinder today and just picked them up.
2001 S430 cams
2003 CLK55 cams (naturally aspirated)
2006 E55 cams (kompressor)
SLR cams
I don't really know how to read all this and must admit I haven't even really looked at them closely yet. The guy did say he set them up with a 108 degree centerline on all cams to keep the data consistent I don't know exactly what difference that will have on the results? He also wanted to know the rocker ratio which is why I asked PTE.
It only cost me $10 to get them to throw all 4 cams on the machine and measure them so if there is something else that needs measuring or a different centerline to check them at I can get it done pretty cheaply.
Anyone out there want to explain what we are looking at here?
Since the pics are now dead I'll add this link to Marcus Fitzhugh's website. I'm pretty sure the specs he posted over there are from this post.
Well hello to all that still visit here . I've had retired many years ago, and recently sold off my ML-500. I no-longer manufacture any engine components for Mercedes, and have been cleaning up the shop & garage. I have 1 used set of cams. you may contact me at flatyner@icloud.com Special Limited production High Valve lift Cam Shaft set. Designed in cooperation with AVL and PTE to fitment of The M-113 & M-113 K engines used in Mercedes - Benz cars . They have a slightly lumpy Idle . at 500 rpm Idle . You can increase the Idle rpm up to 750. rpm in gear Via Star diag and it smooths it out . There was only 30 sets / pairs ever manufactured. These were used for testing dyno runs & performance track driving & Drag racing tests. Last used on a 2005 N/A ML-500
Only 30 sets / pairs were manufactured for for VRP / PTE by AVL in Germany. This set was used for Dyno -Testing , Track driving & Drag racing & Street drivability . Dyno showed about 26 rear wheel HP increase from 2600 rpm to 6700 rpm. with only a 4 hp lost under 2500 rpms on a E-55. These worked quite well on my ML-500 . and I used Tony at Race IQ for the tune. You can also leave a message on this forum . Cheers _PTE_
Included in the price is the , special Cam setting fixture plates , Holding wrench , Mercedes special E-18 adaptor socket and an very good set of instructions Booklet.
No you did not Miss it. I did posted these cams without any pricing to see if there was any interest and there have been several. The price is $1265.00 . which includes Fed - Ex ground shipping within the USA. Cheers PTE
Who bought them? If the purchaser is from this thread it would be great to see a before and after dyno. With a list of mods to go along. We would get an idea of what these cams do.
WoW . It is great to see a exchange of Info . I can only write in short spurts. ADHD. I spent quite a few months measuring & calling all over the world, 1st i went to Crane in Daytona, Through the doors I went.4 pairs of Cams in hand. Funny Thing . Their Cam profiler was Broke and really could not see it being repaired in the near future. Next I called Lunati , They were not interested?? , Then I call Crowler Cams . Spoke to a really nice person, Hank?
I figured they build Cams for Ford's 4.6 (3) valve head. Hank ,felt there wasn't enough demand to do a small production run. I looked at WEB cams , They will regrind, your old core only ,No Warranty , No Aftersales support , No Proto typing. You are on your own. And they back doored me on a 3 cyl 4 stroke Rotax cam project. So It is not as easly as one might think. Europe Cam Builders offered the most help. I supplied the all the specs. This was a lot of engine pulling out the the chassies. V-8 Kompressor / V-8 N/a & V-6 Kompressor .Heads off , test valve springs . Valve drop at TDC , Valve spring Retainer ,bottom lip to the top of the valve guide seal. Make sure that the Cam lobe clearance to the inside of the cam valley. Spring Height at coil bind. Spring pressure on the seat & Pressure at at Cam full lift .Then The Big Degreewheel , Stuff.! How soon can we open the intake. It is opening before the rest of the exhaust is pushed out. Exhaust valve is still open ! (THAT is called overlap.)
The Company I worked with had not updated the cam specs for years. The samples I sent them , OEM MB . Had more lift & overlap ,than their their current off the shelf offering . So I did all the work and sign an profile proprietory agreement with them. So My Out lay of cash was over $10,000.00 for the 1st two proto types , for a drop in cam with no fitment issues. Hense this is why the specs are kept tight lipped
Exotic: Those are V-8 M-113 N/A Degree cam specs. But Those valve lift numbers are way off. The intake valves will collide with the Piston Reliefs. The N/A have a little more intake valve lift. (.305 VS .288 ) lobe lift than the Kompressor. about .017 more .but their whole cycle begins 1.5 Crankshaft degrees later. It Would be really cool if somebody made a multi slot keyway , for the crankshaft
DYNO: Those specs are off the shelf Schrick cams Not Kleemann.
Valve Timing:
Intake Open: 14dg
Intake Close: 62dg
Exhaust Open: 68dg
Exhaust Close: 20dg
Valve Lift at TDC:
Intake: 0.5mm
Exhaust: 1.0mm
You would make less HP with those installed on a Kompressor motor with those cams.
As many of you Know I travel a lot , and should answer my E-Mails more offen than I Do. The company I work for has a tough time keeping me Focused , on their projects. Cheers _PTEngineering 1:02 PM Darn
ADHD
I work for Dave and Adam, Adam owned an original set of your cams for his e55.
i currently have a w210 e55 making 350whp on 93, looking to buy a set of your cams from a guy I know. Apparently they were the cams out of your ML. Just wondering what kind of power you think they will make on the NA motor and if it’s even worth it? Also getting custom headers made over the summer, getting rid of the kleemann junk headers I am currently running. Hope you get this!
08-20-2008, 12:50 PM
With S/C engines,, the cam is not quit as important as with N/A motors.. Head efficiency is!! It does not hurt idle either and can really make the S/C very efficient to make nice gains.. Dollar for dollar,, I will gain way more power on head work and boost on top of the basic 3 bolt ons (Pulley, Throttle body and headers)!! Yes, that is my direction ,, until more cam info comes out..
