*** ASP Pulley ***
08-22-2008, 05:39 PM
#1
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
S600TT, R350
*** ASP Pulley ***
We have beat this whole pulley issue to death before about proper installation. Here is another possibility of failure if you have ASP. We just removed it from client's E55.
The weld is failing and the rubber damper is cracking. Pulley has around 10K miles. I will not even mention rust.
The weld is failing and the rubber damper is cracking. Pulley has around 10K miles. I will not even mention rust.
08-25-2008, 11:15 AM
#6
PLATINUM SPONSOR
Something looks very strange with that pulley...It looks like it was exposed to a fire or extreme heat.Maybe even submerged in salt water or a flood??
Most of us all have Mercedes Benz harmonic balancer pulleys on our cars and I have not seen any that look like that (something happened to that car or pulley) IMO. I have an ASP pulley on my car, which is really a stock MB pulley harmonic balancer from MB with a larger out ring.. Here is why I know it is the best design for me.
1) Starts with a brand new MB harmonic balancer pulley.
2) They Machine only outer grooves off of stock MB pulley and press fits new larger pulley on.. Press fit will hold but welds are only added for back up.. (I saw this process before purchasing for my 120 grand car)..
3) This is a MB pulley that is only slightly altered externally for our cars ( I like that!).. I know I get MB fit, MB design part and it has MB paint on it. The only area painted is the larger outer ring and touch up on the weld spots. Everything else is MP paint and finish.
4) ASP has been a leader in OD/UD drive pulley’s area for 20 plus years and makes incredible parts for thousands of performance cars.. Why take a chance with the unknown or maybe even offshore MFG product? I know I didn’t but that is why we all share info and make our own buying choices.
Another buying plus for me, was staying power.. I have used ASP pulleys since 1992 on every performance car , SUV or tuck that they had a pulley for and never had a problem. I see tuners and other shops closing all over the USA in the last few years..At the same time,, I noticed that ASP has moved into a new larger facility in recent months and they have rows of what I assume to be 500 grandplus machining centers..This is not your ordinary lathe and drill press shop.. I saw multi million dollar, precission machining centers.. Being a business person, I know that having the ability to grow in a slowing economy means staying power!!
Last buying choice for me was that I did not want to reduce my harmonic balancer weight by adding a lighter aluminum pulley on this hand built AMG motor. Finny once posted that you want weight on the crank balancer and only lighten the other pulleys.. I also did not want a harmonic balancer pulley that is bolted on ,, as bolts can stretch over time, come loose and then catastrophic failures can happen.
What I liked about their price,, is that ASP just seemed to add their standard machine/labor markup and did not price products higher for our Mercedes market,,,, just because they can.
IMO..
Most of us all have Mercedes Benz harmonic balancer pulleys on our cars and I have not seen any that look like that (something happened to that car or pulley) IMO. I have an ASP pulley on my car, which is really a stock MB pulley harmonic balancer from MB with a larger out ring.. Here is why I know it is the best design for me.
1) Starts with a brand new MB harmonic balancer pulley.
2) They Machine only outer grooves off of stock MB pulley and press fits new larger pulley on.. Press fit will hold but welds are only added for back up.. (I saw this process before purchasing for my 120 grand car)..
3) This is a MB pulley that is only slightly altered externally for our cars ( I like that!).. I know I get MB fit, MB design part and it has MB paint on it. The only area painted is the larger outer ring and touch up on the weld spots. Everything else is MP paint and finish.
4) ASP has been a leader in OD/UD drive pulley’s area for 20 plus years and makes incredible parts for thousands of performance cars.. Why take a chance with the unknown or maybe even offshore MFG product? I know I didn’t but that is why we all share info and make our own buying choices.
Another buying plus for me, was staying power.. I have used ASP pulleys since 1992 on every performance car , SUV or tuck that they had a pulley for and never had a problem. I see tuners and other shops closing all over the USA in the last few years..At the same time,, I noticed that ASP has moved into a new larger facility in recent months and they have rows of what I assume to be 500 grandplus machining centers..This is not your ordinary lathe and drill press shop.. I saw multi million dollar, precission machining centers.. Being a business person, I know that having the ability to grow in a slowing economy means staying power!!
Last buying choice for me was that I did not want to reduce my harmonic balancer weight by adding a lighter aluminum pulley on this hand built AMG motor. Finny once posted that you want weight on the crank balancer and only lighten the other pulleys.. I also did not want a harmonic balancer pulley that is bolted on ,, as bolts can stretch over time, come loose and then catastrophic failures can happen.
What I liked about their price,, is that ASP just seemed to add their standard machine/labor markup and did not price products higher for our Mercedes market,,,, just because they can.
IMO..
__________________
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
08-25-2008, 11:52 AM
#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
exotic, very good post. i think you've summed up things fairly well.
my thoughts were that if this can happen to asp, it can happen to a stock pulley. however, i don't believe it can happen to a stock pulley under "normal" circumstances, so i'm not sure what the point of this post is except to show something abnormal happening without explaination. this will only propogate flawed presumptions by people that see it which isn't all that fair toward a product manufacturer that has more experience in this arena than all the mb tuners we know of combined.
my thoughts were that if this can happen to asp, it can happen to a stock pulley. however, i don't believe it can happen to a stock pulley under "normal" circumstances, so i'm not sure what the point of this post is except to show something abnormal happening without explaination. this will only propogate flawed presumptions by people that see it which isn't all that fair toward a product manufacturer that has more experience in this arena than all the mb tuners we know of combined.
Trending Topics
08-25-2008, 12:03 PM
#8
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
2015 S212
I had no idea that the ASP folks had such a following. I've seen a load of pulleys on our cars and for some reason some just have this rust and crap all over them. I know the cars and know that they haven't even been subjected to rain, so go figure. I seriously doubt that it is an ASP thing, since I have seen it on many OEM ones.
As for the ASp design. We all have our opinions, but here is why i do not like the ASP brand for our cars:
1 - the shaving and pressing of the out ring can and does stress the rubber section by tugging at its edges. Where they give becomes the weak link.
2 - After you have beaten up the harmonics, you put them under MORE stress than they were designed for (larger pulley).
3 - I worry about the overall balance after the shave and press.
4 - Last, some may think a pressed on will hold, but a few spot welds just don't do me much good.
Is it cheap? Yes. Is it a deal? No. You figure it out.
As for the ASp design. We all have our opinions, but here is why i do not like the ASP brand for our cars:
1 - the shaving and pressing of the out ring can and does stress the rubber section by tugging at its edges. Where they give becomes the weak link.
2 - After you have beaten up the harmonics, you put them under MORE stress than they were designed for (larger pulley).
3 - I worry about the overall balance after the shave and press.
4 - Last, some may think a pressed on will hold, but a few spot welds just don't do me much good.
Is it cheap? Yes. Is it a deal? No. You figure it out.
08-25-2008, 12:57 PM
#10
MBWorld Fanatic!
08-25-2008, 01:10 PM
#11
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
S600TT, R350
Something looks very strange with that pulley...It looks like it was exposed to a fire or extreme heat.Maybe even submerged in salt water or a flood??
Most of us all have Mercedes Benz harmonic balancer pulleys on our cars and I have not seen any that look like that (something happened to that car or pulley) IMO. I have an ASP pulley on my car, which is really a stock MB pulley harmonic balancer from MB with a larger out ring.. Here is why I know it is the best design for me.
1) Starts with a brand new MB harmonic balancer pulley.
2) They Machine only outer grooves off of stock MB pulley and press fits new larger pulley on.. Press fit will hold but welds are only added for back up.. (I saw this process before purchasing for my 120 grand car)..
3) This is a MB pulley that is only slightly altered externally for our cars ( I like that!).. I know I get MB fit, MB design part and it has MB paint on it. The only area painted is the larger outer ring and touch up on the weld spots. Everything else is MP paint and finish.
4) ASP has been a leader in OD/UD drive pulley’s area for 20 plus years and makes incredible parts for thousands of performance cars.. Why take a chance with the unknown or maybe even offshore MFG product? I know I didn’t but that is why we all share info and make our own buying choices.
Another buying plus for me, was staying power.. I have used ASP pulleys since 1992 on every performance car , SUV or tuck that they had a pulley for and never had a problem. I see tuners and other shops closing all over the USA in the last few years..At the same time,, I noticed that ASP has moved into a new larger facility in recent months and they have rows of what I assume to be 500 grandplus machining centers..This is not your ordinary lathe and drill press shop.. I saw multi million dollar, precission machining centers.. Being a business person, I know that having the ability to grow in a slowing economy means staying power!!
Last buying choice for me was that I did not want to reduce my harmonic balancer weight by adding a lighter aluminum pulley on this hand built AMG motor. Finny once posted that you want weight on the crank balancer and only lighten the other pulleys.. I also did not want a harmonic balancer pulley that is bolted on ,, as bolts can stretch over time, come loose and then catastrophic failures can happen.
What I liked about their price,, is that ASP just seemed to add their standard machine/labor markup and did not price products higher for our Mercedes market,,,, just because they can.
IMO..
Most of us all have Mercedes Benz harmonic balancer pulleys on our cars and I have not seen any that look like that (something happened to that car or pulley) IMO. I have an ASP pulley on my car, which is really a stock MB pulley harmonic balancer from MB with a larger out ring.. Here is why I know it is the best design for me.
1) Starts with a brand new MB harmonic balancer pulley.
2) They Machine only outer grooves off of stock MB pulley and press fits new larger pulley on.. Press fit will hold but welds are only added for back up.. (I saw this process before purchasing for my 120 grand car)..
3) This is a MB pulley that is only slightly altered externally for our cars ( I like that!).. I know I get MB fit, MB design part and it has MB paint on it. The only area painted is the larger outer ring and touch up on the weld spots. Everything else is MP paint and finish.
4) ASP has been a leader in OD/UD drive pulley’s area for 20 plus years and makes incredible parts for thousands of performance cars.. Why take a chance with the unknown or maybe even offshore MFG product? I know I didn’t but that is why we all share info and make our own buying choices.
Another buying plus for me, was staying power.. I have used ASP pulleys since 1992 on every performance car , SUV or tuck that they had a pulley for and never had a problem. I see tuners and other shops closing all over the USA in the last few years..At the same time,, I noticed that ASP has moved into a new larger facility in recent months and they have rows of what I assume to be 500 grandplus machining centers..This is not your ordinary lathe and drill press shop.. I saw multi million dollar, precission machining centers.. Being a business person, I know that having the ability to grow in a slowing economy means staying power!!
Last buying choice for me was that I did not want to reduce my harmonic balancer weight by adding a lighter aluminum pulley on this hand built AMG motor. Finny once posted that you want weight on the crank balancer and only lighten the other pulleys.. I also did not want a harmonic balancer pulley that is bolted on ,, as bolts can stretch over time, come loose and then catastrophic failures can happen.
What I liked about their price,, is that ASP just seemed to add their standard machine/labor markup and did not price products higher for our Mercedes market,,,, just because they can.
IMO..
Some come out good, some come out bad. Since it is made by hand, some days are better than others.
08-25-2008, 02:01 PM
#14
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
Posts: 7,092
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes
on
9 Posts
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Don't forget ole Jimmy.
My ASP ring was painstakingly and meticulously hand crafted ON BACKWARDS (the larger ring). Threw countless belts which shredded all over my car nearly rupturing many hoses and totally destroying my under hood insulation.
Finally pulled it and sent it back to ASP to have Lee (who is actually a really nice guy) tell me, "Sorry bout that buddy. Yup, she was welded on totally backwards"
Both the bad pulley and the replacement which I sold were some of the ugliest welds I have ever seen. I really don't care about that as long as they hold and they seem to be holding for the most part. Just wanted to chime in that ASP's certainly aren't known for their beauty.
My ASP ring was painstakingly and meticulously hand crafted ON BACKWARDS (the larger ring). Threw countless belts which shredded all over my car nearly rupturing many hoses and totally destroying my under hood insulation.
Finally pulled it and sent it back to ASP to have Lee (who is actually a really nice guy) tell me, "Sorry bout that buddy. Yup, she was welded on totally backwards"
Both the bad pulley and the replacement which I sold were some of the ugliest welds I have ever seen. I really don't care about that as long as they hold and they seem to be holding for the most part. Just wanted to chime in that ASP's certainly aren't known for their beauty.
08-25-2008, 02:07 PM
#15
PLATINUM SPONSOR
It could be possible that ASP uses all machines for the 3 processes.. A Machine center for outer ring, machine press to put on ring and robotic welder to place weld.. I guess boxing could be done by hand..
At the end of the day ,, all that maters to me ,, is what is the rust from and what caused the other issues? Very hard to tell from the picture if the rubber dampner failed or just the edge is distorted. What would really be nice,, is that the pulley be sent back to ASP and let them evaluate it.. I think others have done the same thing with the assumed to be bad bolt together pulley`s? I want the best part on my car, just as others do and also make sure everyone gets a fair shot at evaluating assumed problems..
That pulley does not have ordinary rust on it.. The stock MB paint was literally melted off. Looks like ASP used high heat on their part of the process. All paint still intact.. Anyone that has seen metal get cooked with paint on it ,, will easilly see that is the case here. Where did the extra heat come from?
Jangy1 - the shaving and pressing of the out ring can and does stress the rubber section by tugging at its edges. Where they give becomes the weak link.
2 - After you have beaten up the harmonics, you put them under MORE stress than they were designed for (larger pulley).
3 - I worry about the overall balance after the shave and press.
4 - Last, some may think a pressed on will hold, but a few spot welds just don't do me much good.
4 - Last, some may think a pressed on will hold, but a few spot welds just don't do me much good.
ASP balances the final part after all work is completed and I really hope other do the same.. That way you get a smooth perfect balanced part.. Those 3 welds can hold far more than a few small bolts.. Little off topic here::How do you address the part of taking off several pounds of harmonic balancing weight by going with and aluminum part? I go back to the post that Finny made about this in his "shock to awe thread".. He really stressed the point on keeping the same weight or adding more for the harmonic balance process..Yes, the harmonic balancer spins our blower but do most people know what a harmonic balancer`s purpose is,, when they just run out and change it? I doubt it but they should on a 20 grand bottom end.
ALL IMO..
__________________
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
08-25-2008, 02:17 PM
#16
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Southern Cali (Ontario)
Posts: 3,466
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes
on
10 Posts
I check my belt and pulley.. almost daily..
I can tell you my pulley is holding up okay, but definately not very pretty.
I just removed by belt yesterday to inspect and could not find any damages, except for normal wear.
somedays I hate having a bigger pulley, since I know I'm not producing the numbers I should.. (need tuning)
but tuning prices are coming down and I should have this fix soon.
I think my problem is not the pulley it self, is the fact the pulley alone is not making the power I want... due to the bypass valve.
once corrected, I'm sure I'll be happy I spent $800 bucks on this piece of metal.
I can tell you my pulley is holding up okay, but definately not very pretty.
I just removed by belt yesterday to inspect and could not find any damages, except for normal wear.
somedays I hate having a bigger pulley, since I know I'm not producing the numbers I should.. (need tuning)
but tuning prices are coming down and I should have this fix soon.
I think my problem is not the pulley it self, is the fact the pulley alone is not making the power I want... due to the bypass valve.
once corrected, I'm sure I'll be happy I spent $800 bucks on this piece of metal.
08-25-2008, 02:22 PM
#17
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,855
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
S600TT, R350
The pulley is with the client and he intends to send it back to ASP.
There is a lot more to dampening than weight. I have ran 4 lb. aluminum pulley on my C32, making 19 lbs. of boost, for over 120,000 miles. No problems.
It is about frequency.
Little off topic here::How do you address the part of taking off several pounds of harmonic balancing weight by going with and aluminum part? I go back to the post that Finny made about this in his "shock to awe thread".. He really stressed the point on keeping the same weight or adding more for the harmonic balance process..Yes, the harmonic balancer spins our blower but do most people know what a harmonic balancer`s purpose is,, when they just run out and change it? I doubt it but they should on a 20 grand bottom end.
It is about frequency.
08-25-2008, 02:25 PM
#18
Super Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Long Island, New york
Posts: 943
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
2004 S55 AMG
I check my belt and pulley.. almost daily..
I can tell you my pulley is holding up okay, but definately not very pretty.
I just removed by belt yesterday to inspect and could not find any damages, except for normal wear.
somedays I hate having a bigger pulley, since I know I'm not producing the numbers I should.. (need tuning)
but tuning prices are coming down and I should have this fix soon.
I think my problem is not the pulley it self, is the fact the pulley alone is not making the power I want... due to the bypass valve.
once corrected, I'm sure I'll be happy I spent $800 bucks on this piece of metal.
I can tell you my pulley is holding up okay, but definately not very pretty.
I just removed by belt yesterday to inspect and could not find any damages, except for normal wear.
somedays I hate having a bigger pulley, since I know I'm not producing the numbers I should.. (need tuning)
but tuning prices are coming down and I should have this fix soon.
I think my problem is not the pulley it self, is the fact the pulley alone is not making the power I want... due to the bypass valve.
once corrected, I'm sure I'll be happy I spent $800 bucks on this piece of metal.
Well said. I got my pulley with rust on it. Bought it used but 6000 miles later and it still holding up.
Also I dont belive we should have to pay the markup on these aftermarket parts. IMO ASP has the pricing on their pullies perfect. They aren't the best looking but does it job well infact.
08-25-2008, 02:40 PM
#19
Senior Member
08-25-2008, 04:41 PM
#20
Out Of Control!!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,394
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
2015 S212
So that would be true for the pulley`s that are bolted together as well? All Hand bolted together I would assume. "bad day, good day scenario" ???
I'd agree.
Do you really know this for a fact? Have you seen this process and can verify the tug /strees part ? What part of a multi axis machine center process tugs on the edges of rubber? Can you explain how this beating up process works on smooth simple machine centers and what levels of stress are the harmonics desinged for?? Please explain,, we are all HUNGRY for information here..
Do I know it for a fact? Hmmmm, I actually do not know if it would be admissable as evidence, but you seem to be overlooking the process. All i am questioning is taking a pulley whose harmonic rubber is designed to work in one plane and pressing a ring around it in a way that the stress is running parrallel to the strength of the rubber. It is funny how you act like this is not possible? It doesn't take an ASP engineer to figure that out.
My concern is not the LEVEL of stress that they are designed for, but rather the directionality of that stress. I also know of plenty of SC pulleys (including 6 E55s) that have absolutely no dampening aat all and have had no issues.
Ok,,, I do know the answer to this one.. ASP balances the final part after all work is completed and I really hope other do the same.. That way you get a smooth perfect balanced part.. Those 3 welds can hold far more than a few small bolts..
Again, you are spewing opinion. HOW does ASP balance them? To what tolerances and in what conditions? No pulley wobbles like an ASP. That is well documented. You may like the 3 spot welds on the OUTSIDE of the pulley, but I'll take my bolts that go through the pulley anyday.
Little off topic here::How do you address the part of taking off several pounds of harmonic balancing weight by going with and aluminum part? I go back to the post that Finny made about this in his "shock to awe thread".. He really stressed the point on keeping the same weight or adding more for the harmonic balance process..Yes, the harmonic balancer spins our blower but do most people know what a harmonic balancer`s purpose is,, when they just run out and change it? I doubt it but they should on a 20 grand bottom end.
As for the weight. There is currently a pulley available that is the same size as the OEM, but makes claims of being 60% lighter. I have seen no data, but would be curious as I would with Fiske's thoughts.
ALL IMO..
I'd agree.
Do you really know this for a fact? Have you seen this process and can verify the tug /strees part ? What part of a multi axis machine center process tugs on the edges of rubber? Can you explain how this beating up process works on smooth simple machine centers and what levels of stress are the harmonics desinged for?? Please explain,, we are all HUNGRY for information here..
Do I know it for a fact? Hmmmm, I actually do not know if it would be admissable as evidence, but you seem to be overlooking the process. All i am questioning is taking a pulley whose harmonic rubber is designed to work in one plane and pressing a ring around it in a way that the stress is running parrallel to the strength of the rubber. It is funny how you act like this is not possible? It doesn't take an ASP engineer to figure that out.
My concern is not the LEVEL of stress that they are designed for, but rather the directionality of that stress. I also know of plenty of SC pulleys (including 6 E55s) that have absolutely no dampening aat all and have had no issues.
Ok,,, I do know the answer to this one..
ASP balances the final part after all work is completed and I really hope other do the same.. That way you get a smooth perfect balanced part.. Those 3 welds can hold far more than a few small bolts.. Again, you are spewing opinion. HOW does ASP balance them? To what tolerances and in what conditions? No pulley wobbles like an ASP. That is well documented. You may like the 3 spot welds on the OUTSIDE of the pulley, but I'll take my bolts that go through the pulley anyday.
Little off topic here::How do you address the part of taking off several pounds of harmonic balancing weight by going with and aluminum part? I go back to the post that Finny made about this in his "shock to awe thread".. He really stressed the point on keeping the same weight or adding more for the harmonic balance process..Yes, the harmonic balancer spins our blower but do most people know what a harmonic balancer`s purpose is,, when they just run out and change it? I doubt it but they should on a 20 grand bottom end.
As for the weight. There is currently a pulley available that is the same size as the OEM, but makes claims of being 60% lighter. I have seen no data, but would be curious as I would with Fiske's thoughts.
ALL IMO..
08-25-2008, 05:24 PM
#21
A crank harmonic damper doesn't have dampening "transitional forces between the crankshaft and the SC" on its mission list. That's simply a wrong statement. A far better explanation of the function of a crank harmonic damper can be found at the Fluidampr website:
"Each time the air/fuel mixture inside a cylinder is ignited, the combustion that occurs creates a torque spike that is applied to the crankshaft through the piston and rod. This torque spike is so severe that it not only turns the crankshaft, it actually twists the crankshaft ahead of its normal rotation and then the crankshaft rebounds. This twisting action is known as torsional vibration. When these torque spikes and forces get into phase with the natural frequency, critical torsional harmonic vibrations occur and can be seriously destructive to the bearings and the crankshaft. Dampers are designed to control those destructive vibrations.
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components."
Since the vast majority of us are not modifying the mass of our engines' internals (i.e., pistons, rods, crank), I would assume that the factory damper, and larger pullies based on the factory damper are correctly frequency tuned for our engines (any experts to refute this?). The supercharger happens to be a belt driven accessory which function has nothing to do with the intended function of the crank damper.
Perhaps some tuners not relying on the factory crank damper somehow measured the frequency of the SC belt tensioner damper (didn't know it had one) and determined it could function as the damper for the crank as well. Personally, I would rather have a tuned crank damper (e.g. factory) responsible for controlling harmonic vibration of my engine block, and replace it as needed when the rubber shows signs of deterioration. That's my take on it; maybe others with more expertise can chime in.
"Each time the air/fuel mixture inside a cylinder is ignited, the combustion that occurs creates a torque spike that is applied to the crankshaft through the piston and rod. This torque spike is so severe that it not only turns the crankshaft, it actually twists the crankshaft ahead of its normal rotation and then the crankshaft rebounds. This twisting action is known as torsional vibration. When these torque spikes and forces get into phase with the natural frequency, critical torsional harmonic vibrations occur and can be seriously destructive to the bearings and the crankshaft. Dampers are designed to control those destructive vibrations.
Critical harmonic vibrations occur numerous times in a engine’s operating range. Stock rubber and elastomer-type dampers are frequency sensitive “tuned absorbers”, and work at only one critical frequency. In the case of a stock rubber damper, it is tuned for a factory engine’s critical harmonic vibrations. If you change the mass of pistons, rods, or the crankshaft, you change the natural frequency of the crankshaft assembly; therefore, the stock damper is no longer tuned to the new frequency of vibration, and you may be headed for early failure of expensive engine components."
Since the vast majority of us are not modifying the mass of our engines' internals (i.e., pistons, rods, crank), I would assume that the factory damper, and larger pullies based on the factory damper are correctly frequency tuned for our engines (any experts to refute this?). The supercharger happens to be a belt driven accessory which function has nothing to do with the intended function of the crank damper.
Perhaps some tuners not relying on the factory crank damper somehow measured the frequency of the SC belt tensioner damper (didn't know it had one) and determined it could function as the damper for the crank as well. Personally, I would rather have a tuned crank damper (e.g. factory) responsible for controlling harmonic vibration of my engine block, and replace it as needed when the rubber shows signs of deterioration. That's my take on it; maybe others with more expertise can chime in.
08-25-2008, 05:37 PM
#22
PLATINUM SPONSOR
Yes, I do know that one of the purposes is crank protection,, among many others. Below are a few lines from several sources, so that the lingo does not come across as spewing .. I have also run lighter crank pulleys on N/A cars with shorter harmonic balancers,single belt cars with no known issues. There are many "race cars" that just remove the balancer for the extra HP but they do not care about resonance vibrations for the short term engine life.. The rub is,, will the same luck apply to a longer , duel belt, all aluminum, blower motor balancer,,, if we all go lighter on this motor?
I wonder how many hoods opened up this weekend, to see their pulley after everyone read this post???? Pretty funny, what the power of a post can do..
.. I have also run lighter crank pulleys on N/A cars with shorter harmonic balancers,single belt cars with no known issues. There are many "race cars" that just remove the balancer for the extra HP but they do not care about resonance vibrations for the short term engine life.. The rub is,, will the same luck apply to a longer , duel belt, all aluminum, blower motor balancer,,, if we all go lighter on this motor?
A harmonic balancer (also called crank pulley damper, crankshaft damper, torsional damper, or vibration damper) is a device connected to the crankshaft of an engine to reduce torsional vibration.
Every time the cylinders fire, torque is imparted to the crankshaft. The crankshaft deflects under this torque, which sets up vibrations when the torque is released. At certain engine speeds the torques imparted by the cylinders are in synch with the vibrations in the crankshaft, which results in a phenomenon called resonance. This resonance causes stress beyond what the crankshaft can withstand, resulting in crankshaft failure.
To prevent this vibration, a harmonic balancer is attached to the front part of the crankshaft. The damper is composed of two elements: a mass and an energy dissipating element. The mass resists the acceleration of the vibration and the energy dissipating (rubber/clutch/fluid) element absorbs the vibrations.
Over time, the energy dissipating (rubber/clutch/fluid) element can deteriorate from age, heat, cold, or exposure to oil or chemicals. Unless rebuilt or replaced, this can cause the crankshaft to develop cracks, resulting in crankshaft failure.
Every time the cylinders fire, torque is imparted to the crankshaft. The crankshaft deflects under this torque, which sets up vibrations when the torque is released. At certain engine speeds the torques imparted by the cylinders are in synch with the vibrations in the crankshaft, which results in a phenomenon called resonance. This resonance causes stress beyond what the crankshaft can withstand, resulting in crankshaft failure.
To prevent this vibration, a harmonic balancer is attached to the front part of the crankshaft. The damper is composed of two elements: a mass and an energy dissipating element. The mass resists the acceleration of the vibration and the energy dissipating (rubber/clutch/fluid) element absorbs the vibrations.
Over time, the energy dissipating (rubber/clutch/fluid) element can deteriorate from age, heat, cold, or exposure to oil or chemicals. Unless rebuilt or replaced, this can cause the crankshaft to develop cracks, resulting in crankshaft failure.
__________________
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
08-25-2008, 11:25 PM
#23
Something looks very strange with that pulley...It looks like it was exposed to a fire or extreme heat.Maybe even submerged in salt water or a flood??
Most of us all have Mercedes Benz harmonic balancer pulleys on our cars and I have not seen any that look like that (something happened to that car or pulley) IMO. I have an ASP pulley on my car, which is really a stock MB pulley harmonic balancer from MB with a larger out ring.. Here is why I know it is the best design for me.
1) Starts with a brand new MB harmonic balancer pulley.
2) They Machine only outer grooves off of stock MB pulley and press fits new larger pulley on.. Press fit will hold but welds are only added for back up.. (I saw this process before purchasing for my 120 grand car)..
3) This is a MB pulley that is only slightly altered externally for our cars ( I like that!).. I know I get MB fit, MB design part and it has MB paint on it. The only area painted is the larger outer ring and touch up on the weld spots. Everything else is MP paint and finish.
4) ASP has been a leader in OD/UD drive pulley’s area for 20 plus years and makes incredible parts for thousands of performance cars.. Why take a chance with the unknown or maybe even offshore MFG product? I know I didn’t but that is why we all share info and make our own buying choices.
Another buying plus for me, was staying power.. I have used ASP pulleys since 1992 on every performance car , SUV or tuck that they had a pulley for and never had a problem. I see tuners and other shops closing all over the USA in the last few years..At the same time,, I noticed that ASP has moved into a new larger facility in recent months and they have rows of what I assume to be 500 grandplus machining centers..This is not your ordinary lathe and drill press shop.. I saw multi million dollar, precission machining centers.. Being a business person, I know that having the ability to grow in a slowing economy means staying power!!
Last buying choice for me was that I did not want to reduce my harmonic balancer weight by adding a lighter aluminum pulley on this hand built AMG motor. Finny once posted that you want weight on the crank balancer and only lighten the other pulleys.. I also did not want a harmonic balancer pulley that is bolted on ,, as bolts can stretch over time, come loose and then catastrophic failures can happen.
What I liked about their price,, is that ASP just seemed to add their standard machine/labor markup and did not price products higher for our Mercedes market,,,, just because they can.
IMO..
Most of us all have Mercedes Benz harmonic balancer pulleys on our cars and I have not seen any that look like that (something happened to that car or pulley) IMO. I have an ASP pulley on my car, which is really a stock MB pulley harmonic balancer from MB with a larger out ring.. Here is why I know it is the best design for me.
1) Starts with a brand new MB harmonic balancer pulley.
2) They Machine only outer grooves off of stock MB pulley and press fits new larger pulley on.. Press fit will hold but welds are only added for back up.. (I saw this process before purchasing for my 120 grand car)..
3) This is a MB pulley that is only slightly altered externally for our cars ( I like that!).. I know I get MB fit, MB design part and it has MB paint on it. The only area painted is the larger outer ring and touch up on the weld spots. Everything else is MP paint and finish.
4) ASP has been a leader in OD/UD drive pulley’s area for 20 plus years and makes incredible parts for thousands of performance cars.. Why take a chance with the unknown or maybe even offshore MFG product? I know I didn’t but that is why we all share info and make our own buying choices.
Another buying plus for me, was staying power.. I have used ASP pulleys since 1992 on every performance car , SUV or tuck that they had a pulley for and never had a problem. I see tuners and other shops closing all over the USA in the last few years..At the same time,, I noticed that ASP has moved into a new larger facility in recent months and they have rows of what I assume to be 500 grandplus machining centers..This is not your ordinary lathe and drill press shop.. I saw multi million dollar, precission machining centers.. Being a business person, I know that having the ability to grow in a slowing economy means staying power!!
Last buying choice for me was that I did not want to reduce my harmonic balancer weight by adding a lighter aluminum pulley on this hand built AMG motor. Finny once posted that you want weight on the crank balancer and only lighten the other pulleys.. I also did not want a harmonic balancer pulley that is bolted on ,, as bolts can stretch over time, come loose and then catastrophic failures can happen.
What I liked about their price,, is that ASP just seemed to add their standard machine/labor markup and did not price products higher for our Mercedes market,,,, just because they can.
IMO..
I had my ASP now about 10-11 months and no issues. Vadim thanks for the warning thou...
08-25-2008, 11:29 PM
#24
Well said. I got my pulley with rust on it. Bought it used but 6000 miles later and it still holding up.
Also I dont belive we should have to pay the markup on these aftermarket parts. IMO ASP has the pricing on their pullies perfect. They aren't the best looking but does it job well infact.
Also I dont belive we should have to pay the markup on these aftermarket parts. IMO ASP has the pricing on their pullies perfect. They aren't the best looking but does it job well infact.
