Marcus Frost

To business - I am one of the few members on the board who've had the ability to run two tunes on the exact same hardware setup and as a continuation of my first thread posting the results to my Stage 1 (version 1.0) I decided to make this post as a review of both tunes as they are obviously two of the more popular ones today and I don't think anyone has been able to run both on the same car.

My original Stage 1 writeup:

https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/241237-stage-1-complete-let-tune-vrp-pulley-cpt-cooling-full-writeup.html

Now that writeup was made before I had considerable seat time in the car so some of my criticisms mentioned elsewhere were things that manifested themselves later on down the line, for what it's worth.

You guys were probably aware of my pulley debacle that surfaced also after that original post, but in the end VRP, CPT, and myself were all able to sit down and work things out. Now I have the newest design VRP pulley on my car, with a new VRP tune, and my original CPT cooling package.

With that said, I want to compare figures first. I had the car dyno'd with LET, as shown before, and now with VRP. HP figures remained almost identical, but there was a very strange anomaly with the TQ curve (and we can see it also in conjunction with the A/F):





Now, in my initial post I was very excited about the gain in TQ LET provided but now, having driven both I'm not so certain it's "as advertised". We see that A/F is a lot leaner with the LET, boost is similar, and while I'd love to say you can put enough timing down low to gain another 60rwtq over the VRP tune, I just don't think that's the case. With this TQ anomaly, it kind of puts into question the HP figures as well, because we all know HP is a function of TQ. I'm not really totally sure what to conclude about it. Some guys on the east coast also just posted their LET dyno graphs also showing this monster TQ curve. However, other tuner dyno graphs show a different curve - one that is like stock, except "elevated" - I have some theories as to why LET's tune shows this, but I'd rather not speculate and hear what you guys on the forums have to say. Some of you guys were skeptical in my original post and I think discussion about this is healthy for everyone.

Drivability - now this has to be taken with a grain of salt - I had mentioned earlier I had a preliminary LET tune on my car which needed refining, and I now have a proven VRP tune - so it's not completely apples to apples. However, now having driven the VRP tune you can really tell just how much time was put into making it smooth, consistent, and like stock. I am extremely pleased with just how nicely the VRP tune drives. Some of the issues I had addressed to Jerry was the car was falling on it's face after hard launches as well as certain WOT jaunts. Not to mention, throttle response was super harsh, making for a lot of jerking. Overall, this has a significant effect on the smooth luxury feel I was accustomed to in the E55 and the software definitely needed work. You can see that some of these issues are apparent in the dyno charts. The VRP, on the other hand, does not. It is silky smooth and the driving experience is fantastic. I cannot comment enough on just how nicely the tune enhanced the power but retained the original feel. Throttle response, power delivery, everything is just extremely well sorted out in the VRP tune. I know that these ECUs are extremely complicated and the problems that go on behind the scenes do not always manifest themselves on the forums, but needless to say Powerchips and VRP have shown their ability to do these cars right in my eyes with this tune.

Now as for the bottom line, we have to consider the price difference for these two products. I'm not sure what LET's current price is but I am pretty sure it's less than VRP. Additionally, LET has shown that they have some custom tuning capabilities, and so does VRP for that matter. However, at this point, I'd consider them preliminary whereas with VRP they've built a bunch of cars with their own parts and realistically have a leg-up on LET in this department. Wayne and Jerry are savvy guys, no question, but I'm just calling it the way I see it.

This Sunday, weather permitting, I will be hitting the drag strip with my new setup. I will not be running a drag radial, or any special tire, just the street tires I have on it now. My car already went low 12s and trapped 117ish stock, but there's a considerable difference in power from my seat-of-the-pants with this VRP550 package so I'm hoping that is not just my optimistic imagination. Ted and a few other guys have been asking for VRP numbers in another thread and as part of my role here in the community I will be posting the objective figures after my drag strip outing.

To sum it all up I'd break it down like this:

Value (ECU only) - LET
Performance - VRP
Reliability (both of the tune and tuner) - VRP
Customer Service - Tie

I think the bottom line is both have a good product but for me, VRP and their team just have more depth to their products and experience with the platform, and I think this simple package illustrates that for me. LET has all the potential to also be a good tuner but for me, VRP has good products that are still priced well under most of the competition and I have really been pleased with my experience with them. I highly recommend this package to anyone.

Looking forward to your comments/questions/responses.

Marcus

jangy

You are welcome.

rberga1

Congrats Marcus! I too feel that my car with the VRP600 tune is smooth even without the 80mm TB and shorty headers installed. If I can get the 80mm TB and shorty header installed by Sunday, maybe I can see you at the strip. Or if I don't get them installed, I can still go to see if my TQ limiting software has at least been removed and I can again run better than 110traps.

BenzoBoi

Awesome review Marcus! I look forward to experiencing some extra power in my car and hopefully I can see the things you see also!

To me, I'd take everyday drive-ability over power anyday. I'm beginning to learn that peak horsepower and torque may sell, but the actual curve is where the pudding is...

Thericker

Marcus has always been a credit to this forum, I respect both VRP / LET & look fwd to Marcus reporting in his unbiased informative style.

vrus

Marcus,

I appreciate your honest review. You've always been a straight-up guy since I've known you and I appreciate that.

I am really happy that you are enjoying the car and I hope that it lives up to your expectations when you get a chance to run it down the 1/4mile. I am looking forward to the feedback.

Once we have the E55 all squared away, we can start paying some attention to that SL65 of yours...

C32madness

Glad to hear you are pleased with the results. Buying a mail order tune can be a tricky. No doubt that the LET tune needs refinement. In there defense they have chosen a safe path for the base tune. VRP got it closer out of the box.

In the end there is no replacing a custom dyno tune. Those LET guys that did the dyno day were all thrilled with the outcome.

I applaud the way both VRP & LET conduct themselfs. Top notch professionals that are commited to customers.

Yacht Master

+1

Just like to add that Marcus is a knowledgeable well informed enthusiast, who's opinion should be valued by any AMG owner. That said the 600/65 bar is on the rise, will VRP get an SL 65 in the ten fifties?

racetested

Firstly, thanks Marcus for the unbiased and neutral feedback!

No matter how many cars a person has modified when a person switches makes and models it's like starting over again to find out who is making what and how good are the products so posts like this are very welcomed.

As Marcus said VRP seems to have a better handle on his "particular platform" and Marcus lives by LET so a custom dyno tune or not VRP has the edge no matter what from what I read.

slavik

great writeup..... cant wait to see what it can do....

Timeless

+1...thanks for sharing.

blackbenzz

Thank you for all the info Marcus! Great writeup.

I have a few questions. In the plots shown in this thread, which curve is for which tune? Also, did you have your car dyno tuned by LET or was it a generic mail in tune? I know a few guys at the LET dyno tune day saw very big gains over the generic mail in LET tune.

I personally chose LET because VRP was not very accomodating regarding a custom dyno tune. All I kept hearing was send your car to Cali and we can see what we can do. Not an option for me. LET was willing to fly out on their dime and custom dyno tune our cars, at a price point less than VRP's. And the money back guarantee made it that much better.

I have no doubt that both tuners are very good at what they do. I know Victor and Vadim are very knowledgeable when it comes to the mb platform and I honestly dont know much about the LET group besides them being very good with the C32 platform and from what I saw during the dyno day they made some very nice gains on the E55s. That being said they had alot of trouble with a NA CLK55 and couldnt make any significant power out of it, but they honored their money back guarantee, which I respect. I have been waiting for a timing table and afr charts for my car from Wayne since I would like to know how much timing is in my tune and what afr I'm at. I would rather run a safe tune than one that made 20whp and I'm sure everyone shares this feeling. I guess I will just datalog it to see whats going on.

I will make a thread of my own once I get track proven results since I believe in that WAY more than any dyno. Unfortunately I am waiting on a diff before I can do that. I had a generic Kleemann tune prior to the LET custom tune but have also added alot of hardware including VRP's cams. I did see very nice gains under the curve from the tune though.

Threads like this are very helpful to members and I appreciate you putting up an unbiased review

Edit: why did you decide not to run the dynos in shootout mode on the dyno dynamics?

Marcus Frost

I appreciate your kind words - thanks to Marko and VRP's efforts, I have a good starting point. The SL does in fact weigh considerably less so I am excited to see the results of a good tune and cooling package upgrade - I will also be planning on doing some exhaust work, and I have already bought new wheels, so I think the car will come out next spring being quite the machine.

-m

Marcus Frost

My pleasure Ahmad.

Red is VRP, blue is LET. They were both, for the most part, "mail order tunes" and we did not do extensive tuning with either. LET had my car on the dyno for a bit and did some refining (but very little), and VRP had some preliminary data provided them pre-tune. I think I am keeping things here pretty even because the truth is, both companies have the ability to make alterations to tune to suit their customer's needs, but I am just not capable of dedicating the time to have an extensive tune done by both companies.

I respect your choice Ahmad, and again - I tried to make it clear I'm not trying to make my decision sound like the right one for everybody, and anyone who goes a different path is wrong. I wanted to just make my experience known with my particular car, and if it's only used as a reference in everyone else's mod path, that's fine with me. I make no money selling VRP products, or LET products. I get nothing spending time making these posts. I'm just contributing to the community, and I hope that people can see my agenda as being merely that.

I wish you the best of luck Ahmad and again, it's my pleasure. We have a lot of other guys who also take the time to contribute to this forum and it's really what makes it the valuable resource for all of us.

The dynos were done around 4 months apart, not back to back.

-m

blackbenzz

I completely understand your intentions and I know people choose different tunes for different reasons. Thats why I appreicate your unbiased input.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the LET tune is making more power under the curve and running richer. VRP is only making slightly more power over 6k rpm.

Eurocharged Canada

Marcus - Congrats on getting the car where you wanted it. I wish you the best of luck in the future!

I had made only minor revisions to the stock file to get that power out of your car.

Our "out of the box" tune has changed dramatically since then. Your car was one of my first attempts at the E55 and much has changed since then.

I've learned a lot and I'm proud of LET and what we can do with tuning.

Again, congrats on the car.

Eurocharged Canada

What was the difference in temps? 4 months is a huge spread...

Marcus Frost

Ahmad that's a good observation, and I start to touch on it in my post regarding the TQ curve. I am someone skeptical that the LET tune made 60rwtq having driven both cars back to back, and I'm not sure how to explain the anomaly between the two TQ curves. It is not dyno/temp related, I already explored those avenues. You made a great point, how is the LET tune making more power running extremely rich? I know Jerry is running a few degrees of timing more, but that doesn't quite explain it. Something is triggering that spike in torque down low and it carries through the entire pull. I don't think it's the actual motor doing it.

I appreciate that Jerry. I know your tune was preliminary and I made sure to note that in my post. I'm sure you, along with other tuners, will continue to improve your products to better serve your customers. Best of luck to you and Wayne as well in the future.

-m

AMGfan

Considering what was available just 3 years ago, I am one who is glad that we now have the opportunity to have options otherthan just Kleeman, Renntech, or Brabus. Thank you Marcus for the write-up and civility of this thread...

MB_Forever

Marcus, thanks for the very detailed write up, it was very interesting to read

Did you ever get a chance to run the 1/4 mile with LET's tune?

c32used

I say the review is nice but I don't understand why bother comparing two different Tuners when Tunes are not at par from LET on the first time around............a better comparo is run your VRP tune then see if Jerry or Wayne can install a current Tune. People choose the Vendors they choose and putting this type of info on this forum just feels like you are trying to steer people away from one Vendor to another....I have nothing negative to say of you, VRP or LET but a review is a review as I read...it seems to criticize one for the other. Keep it safe and only mention the current tune as your review. I hope my feelings and response to this doesn't hinder our friendship

Eurocharged Canada

I agree...

Although VRP and LET are in competition, I value VRP products and the VRP team.

Victor / Vadim are great guys, and even with our differences, I consider VRP a top MB tuner.

Marcus is in good hands.

Jerry

Marcus Frost

Yes, I did, at one of Wayne's events. However the track conditions and DA were pretty bad and with the wobbling pulley I wasn't sure if those runs would qualify as something of proper measure. I do not feel comfortable using them in this discussion, too many variables.

I attempted full disclosure for people to reach their own conclusions. This isn't a perfect test, and the reality is a test of this nature is very rare. Jerry has said his tune is evolving, and I'm sure so is VRPs. To disqualify results because they aren't the most current is simply unreasonable because the truth is they are constantly changing. The tunes are 3 months apart, at most - not years apart. I made it clear in my posts that yes, LET has learned a lot, but are we to assume VRP has not? LET is able to custom tune, and so is VRP. I think these points are moot. Ahmad pointed out that maybe in an application like his, LET has more flexibility and for him that may be what's best. That is not my application, and honestly it's not the majority of people's application. I can't please everyone. At the end of the day I think they both are capable tuners but I would lean on VRP as being the more experienced, and the truth is - they are. They've been around for quite a while and have provided quite a number of products for the 55k cars. That isn't to say that because of that they are the best, because Brabus/Carlsson/etc blow VRP out of the water in terms of product offering, but I don't think that makes them the best. What I tried to say is that the combination of what I got from the tune, COMBINED with other factors that were all listed, made me draw my conclusion.

Thanks for your feedback, and no, no worries. I wouldn't post if I was afraid of a heated discussion

-m

phatmitzu

You've lost me.
Which is which?
If red is VRP, then its running leaner through the curve but making less power?

Marcus Frost

phatmitzu you have it right - and you're touching on the real dilemma. The VRP tune, according to these dynos, makes less TQ than the LET tune (and thus, consequently, less HP) - but I just don't really buy it. I've driven both cars now and I would have to lie to say I felt like I lost 60rwtq with the VRP tune. It's just not true. I hate to use butt-dynos but I actually feel the VRP tune makes more low end TQ and throttle response is much better as well.

I'm going to the strip this weekend, and will have some more data for you all.

I don't have a solid scientific answer for you all regarding what could cause this TQ drop, unfortunately.