Why are there 1000 M3s but no 1000 HP AMGs?
12-11-2008, 02:30 PM
#27
Out Of Control!!
12-11-2008, 02:36 PM
#29
Out Of Control!!
12-11-2008, 02:37 PM
#30
Super Moderator
12-11-2008, 03:57 PM
#32
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this was done years ago,they had both blocks next to each other and the ports on the s54 were like twice the size,the supra had alot more meat between the cyl.tho
even that hpf car dosnt boost much psi from that dyno above.
the engine is flowing over 100hp/l its just a very free flowing block from the get go.
boost for boost the s54 will make more power.Now Im not saying its as reliable as a supra,its just a really great engine to build up on.
even that hpf car dosnt boost much psi from that dyno above.
the engine is flowing over 100hp/l its just a very free flowing block from the get go.
boost for boost the s54 will make more power.Now Im not saying its as reliable as a supra,its just a really great engine to build up on.
12-11-2008, 04:07 PM
#33
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few more notes on the s54 from the m3,that engine is like 10x more efficient than the e55 v8.
it will out flow even a supra block by almost twice as much volume going threw it.
some guy tested the head on the s54 and was so shocked on how well bmw ported and polished it,there are no gains to be made on the head from work,its perfect from bmw.It will out flow a supra block all day,thats also why it can make so much power with less boost.
little example you can make 600whp on an s54 with like 14psi,that same turbo would need 24psi on a supra to make the same power.
run the same turbos on both blocks and the m3 will make more power.The m3 was made to flow up to 9000 rpms,add boost and make it not blow up and you have a serious monster.The only problem is the s54 wont beat the older s52 from the e36 m3.
the stroke is to long,bmw maxed out bore and stroke on both sides of the spectrum making the s54,they went for max torque and said f'it lets rev the **** out of it also.this will make it harder to make over 1000whp like the e36 m3.You will have to shorten the stoke bigtime or you will blow it up.
that is also why the m3 was throwing rods.
the real engine to build up is the 3.6 inline 6 from the older m5,they are up to like 1400whp over seas
it will out flow even a supra block by almost twice as much volume going threw it.
some guy tested the head on the s54 and was so shocked on how well bmw ported and polished it,there are no gains to be made on the head from work,its perfect from bmw.It will out flow a supra block all day,thats also why it can make so much power with less boost.
little example you can make 600whp on an s54 with like 14psi,that same turbo would need 24psi on a supra to make the same power.
run the same turbos on both blocks and the m3 will make more power.The m3 was made to flow up to 9000 rpms,add boost and make it not blow up and you have a serious monster.The only problem is the s54 wont beat the older s52 from the e36 m3.
the stroke is to long,bmw maxed out bore and stroke on both sides of the spectrum making the s54,they went for max torque and said f'it lets rev the **** out of it also.this will make it harder to make over 1000whp like the e36 m3.You will have to shorten the stoke bigtime or you will blow it up.
that is also why the m3 was throwing rods.
the real engine to build up is the 3.6 inline 6 from the older m5,they are up to like 1400whp over seas
Yeah, tazaM3 has one crazy car. Like you said, it was not HPF but AA who built it, and it was quite expensive at the time. I know him and a few HPF stg 1,2,&3 owners, and they all love their cars.
iirc, they have boosted the s54 to over 700bhp without touching the internals or head.
Well for starters, at 3.2 litres, a s54 n/a puts out near the same amount of ponies as the supra stock TURBO. Go to www.bimmerforums.com check out the FI section, and search. There are a ton of pages about s50/52/54 vs supra engines.
It has everything to do with a superior flowing I-6 engine... can't beat it.
btw: ate their any e55s that come with a manual tranny?
12-11-2008, 05:40 PM
#34
I'm not a tuner, and really have no idea, but it's my understanding that MB ECU's are almost impossible to get to work with certain types of engine mods (i.e. twin charging, adding turbos, etc). I know a few people that have had success running a piggyback setup, but there have been countless people that have put all the hardware together, and failed to get it to work with the software correctly.
I know VRP has been working on a 1000HP car for at least a year, and I'm not sure if that car has even made it on a dyno yet. I think LET quit working on their twin turbo car after a year. Some big name tuners had trouble just adding a supercharger package, so I don't think it's nearly as easy a platform to get huge HP numbers from as other makes.
I know VRP has been working on a 1000HP car for at least a year, and I'm not sure if that car has even made it on a dyno yet. I think LET quit working on their twin turbo car after a year. Some big name tuners had trouble just adding a supercharger package, so I don't think it's nearly as easy a platform to get huge HP numbers from as other makes.
12-11-2008, 10:23 PM
#36
Member
The original question was----why no 1000hp amg's??
I think is comes down one simple thing---->The demographic of the owners.
Most M3 owners are certain Demographic (im generalizing).....with absolutely NO research I would bet the kind of people that gravitate to to M3's are the same that got into supra's and vipers...Probably 25-34 years old....always loved fast cars...now this person has graduated school and landed a nice job with some decent money and wants to get their "I HAVE ARRIVED" status symbol. Ideally they'd by an F430 or 911tt....but a $150,000++car?? That's outta their reach....so they look around for something fast with the appropriate "Ive arrived" status----then their goal is to "make my M3 faster and handle better than the F430 I couldn't afford". These individuals then goto forums where they are greeted by a plethora of other owners JUST LIKE THEM!! They egg each other on. Keep in mind---these guys probably dont have wives or kids....all their time and resources can go toward that singular goal.
AMG 55 or 65 owners are of a different demographic. They are usually further on down the line in age. They have families and kids and businesses. Although they love fast cars and modding....its not their singular goal. They have learned the rule---"there is always someone faster". They're happy with as fast a car as they can get without having to mess around with warranty issues. AMG guys wont be trying to outdo each others dyno graphs to have the "most powerful" car.
Just look ..... a bigger supercharger --ken Bell or of the like---would be soo easy to do. The reason we dont have one is beacause there isnt some 28yo guy down at Bell with $20000 cash saying---"I dont care what it costs man.....heres $20k.....Just do it!!!
I think is comes down one simple thing---->The demographic of the owners.
Most M3 owners are certain Demographic (im generalizing).....with absolutely NO research I would bet the kind of people that gravitate to to M3's are the same that got into supra's and vipers...Probably 25-34 years old....always loved fast cars...now this person has graduated school and landed a nice job with some decent money and wants to get their "I HAVE ARRIVED" status symbol. Ideally they'd by an F430 or 911tt....but a $150,000++car?? That's outta their reach....so they look around for something fast with the appropriate "Ive arrived" status----then their goal is to "make my M3 faster and handle better than the F430 I couldn't afford". These individuals then goto forums where they are greeted by a plethora of other owners JUST LIKE THEM!! They egg each other on. Keep in mind---these guys probably dont have wives or kids....all their time and resources can go toward that singular goal.
AMG 55 or 65 owners are of a different demographic. They are usually further on down the line in age. They have families and kids and businesses. Although they love fast cars and modding....its not their singular goal. They have learned the rule---"there is always someone faster". They're happy with as fast a car as they can get without having to mess around with warranty issues. AMG guys wont be trying to outdo each others dyno graphs to have the "most powerful" car.
Just look ..... a bigger supercharger --ken Bell or of the like---would be soo easy to do. The reason we dont have one is beacause there isnt some 28yo guy down at Bell with $20000 cash saying---"I dont care what it costs man.....heres $20k.....Just do it!!!
12-11-2008, 10:28 PM
#37
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08 CLS63
I'm not a tuner, and really have no idea, but it's my understanding that MB ECU's are almost impossible to get to work with certain types of engine mods (i.e. twin charging, adding turbos, etc). I know a few people that have had success running a piggyback setup, but there have been countless people that have put all the hardware together, and failed to get it to work with the software correctly.
I know VRP has been working on a 1000HP car for at least a year, and I'm not sure if that car has even made it on a dyno yet. I think LET quit working on their twin turbo car after a year. Some big name tuners had trouble just adding a supercharger package, so I don't think it's nearly as easy a platform to get huge HP numbers from as other makes.
I know VRP has been working on a 1000HP car for at least a year, and I'm not sure if that car has even made it on a dyno yet. I think LET quit working on their twin turbo car after a year. Some big name tuners had trouble just adding a supercharger package, so I don't think it's nearly as easy a platform to get huge HP numbers from as other makes.
12-11-2008, 11:57 PM
#38
MBWorld Fanatic!
The original question was----why no 1000hp amg's??
I think is comes down one simple thing---->The demographic of the owners.
Most M3 owners are certain Demographic (im generalizing).....with absolutely NO research I would bet the kind of people that gravitate to to M3's are the same that got into supra's and vipers...Probably 25-34 years old....always loved fast cars...now this person has graduated school and landed a nice job with some decent money and wants to get their "I HAVE ARRIVED" status symbol. Ideally they'd by an F430 or 911tt....but a $150,000++car?? That's outta their reach....so they look around for something fast with the appropriate "Ive arrived" status----then their goal is to "make my M3 faster and handle better than the F430 I couldn't afford". These individuals then goto forums where they are greeted by a plethora of other owners JUST LIKE THEM!! They egg each other on. Keep in mind---these guys probably dont have wives or kids....all their time and resources can go toward that singular goal.
AMG 55 or 65 owners are of a different demographic. They are usually further on down the line in age. They have families and kids and businesses. Although they love fast cars and modding....its not their singular goal. They have learned the rule---"there is always someone faster". They're happy with as fast a car as they can get without having to mess around with warranty issues. AMG guys wont be trying to outdo each others dyno graphs to have the "most powerful" car.
Just look ..... a bigger supercharger --ken Bell or of the like---would be soo easy to do. The reason we dont have one is beacause there isnt some 28yo guy down at Bell with $20000 cash saying---"I dont care what it costs man.....heres $20k.....Just do it!!!
I think is comes down one simple thing---->The demographic of the owners.
Most M3 owners are certain Demographic (im generalizing).....with absolutely NO research I would bet the kind of people that gravitate to to M3's are the same that got into supra's and vipers...Probably 25-34 years old....always loved fast cars...now this person has graduated school and landed a nice job with some decent money and wants to get their "I HAVE ARRIVED" status symbol. Ideally they'd by an F430 or 911tt....but a $150,000++car?? That's outta their reach....so they look around for something fast with the appropriate "Ive arrived" status----then their goal is to "make my M3 faster and handle better than the F430 I couldn't afford". These individuals then goto forums where they are greeted by a plethora of other owners JUST LIKE THEM!! They egg each other on. Keep in mind---these guys probably dont have wives or kids....all their time and resources can go toward that singular goal.
AMG 55 or 65 owners are of a different demographic. They are usually further on down the line in age. They have families and kids and businesses. Although they love fast cars and modding....its not their singular goal. They have learned the rule---"there is always someone faster". They're happy with as fast a car as they can get without having to mess around with warranty issues. AMG guys wont be trying to outdo each others dyno graphs to have the "most powerful" car.
Just look ..... a bigger supercharger --ken Bell or of the like---would be soo easy to do. The reason we dont have one is beacause there isnt some 28yo guy down at Bell with $20000 cash saying---"I dont care what it costs man.....heres $20k.....Just do it!!!
you do know that taza has like 150k into his m3 right?that aa kit cost him like 60k plus the cost of the car.Im 100% sure if an e55 could make 1000 hp he would be willing to do it.Its not the money its the big block v8 holding up
my friend just bought an 04 e55 for 28k at auction and already has a tune pullies and gutted the exh.This is a guy that has like 10 600whp old school turbo p-cars,trust me if the car could do it this guy will be one of the highest running e55s.
He has a shop that does highend cars and just finished up a f40 with custom turbos and a full motec setup.
Last edited by skratch77; 12-12-2008 at 12:02 AM.
12-12-2008, 01:52 AM
#40
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Exactly. Last time I checked into getting a manual tranny that would do the job for m117 and m113 the only choices were to shell out an absurd amount of $$$ for an unused rentech 6-speed sitting in an Arizona wharehouse, some tremec possibilities, or making a 540/m5 adapted bellhousing frankentranny.
I know there are different circumstances, but I would hate to have a 1000hp amg auto. I know the auto beefed up could work great with a turbo, but...
Are there currently any more recent better alternatives for acquiring a satisfactory manual tranny for an e55?
I know there are different circumstances, but I would hate to have a 1000hp amg auto. I know the auto beefed up could work great with a turbo, but...
Are there currently any more recent better alternatives for acquiring a satisfactory manual tranny for an e55?
12-12-2008, 12:04 PM
#43
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2002 M3
Thanks...
Here are some random pics of another widebody M3 we did and the engines on them.
Oops... how did that one slip in..
Here's an engine shot on an HPF M3 in Canada.. All of our engines look like this...
Here are some random pics of another widebody M3 we did and the engines on them.
Oops... how did that one slip in..
Here's an engine shot on an HPF M3 in Canada.. All of our engines look like this...
Last edited by HPF Chris; 12-12-2008 at 12:07 PM.
12-12-2008, 01:27 PM
#44
Member
you do know that taza has like 150k into his m3 right?that aa kit cost him like 60k plus the cost of the car.Im 100% sure if an e55 could make 1000 hp he would be willing to do it.Its not the money its the big block v8 holding up
my friend just bought an 04 e55 for 28k at auction and already has a tune pullies and gutted the exh.This is a guy that has like 10 600whp old school turbo p-cars,trust me if the car could do it this guy will be one of the highest running e55s.
He has a shop that does highend cars and just finished up a f40 with custom turbos and a full motec setup.
my friend just bought an 04 e55 for 28k at auction and already has a tune pullies and gutted the exh.This is a guy that has like 10 600whp old school turbo p-cars,trust me if the car could do it this guy will be one of the highest running e55s.
He has a shop that does highend cars and just finished up a f40 with custom turbos and a full motec setup.
As far as the V8 holding him back....What data do you have to support your statement about the "limit" of the MB 5.5l V8??
As these cars fall in price into the 20-25k range...you'll see a whole new breed of E55 owners who will be willing to do much more radical things than the current owners who paid $50-90k for their cars.
You pull off the SC on an E55 and slap on twin GT35 Turbo's ....tune it...u'll make an easy 750rwhp on pump at low boost. Look at the Heffner Twin Turbo Ford GT...
Did Taza buy the car thinking..."lemme buy this car and spend $150,000 on it" ??
As this economic downturn continues and more more of these vehicles get into the hands of those 'types' of owners...u'll see this platform break many preceived hp barriers.
12-12-2008, 02:24 PM
#46
Out Of Control!!
I want to do this SO bad! But i no has monies 
I'm probably the poorest guy in the E55 subforum lol
12-12-2008, 06:38 PM
#47
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V12-Biturbo
Awesome! Now where are the pix of the car again? lol
The only thing I'd like to see (besides more models) is the rear 1/4 panels to rise up to the belt line ie on the rear side window thru to trunk area, it looks odd w/widened fenders ending ubruptly like that. I know it muyst cost a lot more to do it the way I described but it would really complete the finished product.. Otherwise A++++++++
Last edited by Thericker; 12-12-2008 at 06:45 PM.
12-13-2008, 12:26 AM
#48
Member
The bottleneck with all modern cars will always be #1 tuning #2cost of custom one off parts for R&D.....
Just look at comparison......Goto EVo forums or Sti forums or M3 or S4 forums and you have a whole bunch of guys letting on little secrets about the groundbreaking "secret killer project" they are doing with their tuner.....Here, the prevailing mantra you'll hear is ..." I wish renntech or VRP or bla bla bla would come out with something for me to buy"
Honestly...this car just needs 650rwhp to be perfect.
12-13-2008, 04:06 AM
#49
Senior Member
Ive owned Plenty of Mcars and AMGs. I currently have an E55 which I love. I know this is a MB website. But i have to say this, anyone that says an M3 is junk is a total idiot and doesnt know **** about cars except hoe to write a check for one. . Its not the same as an amg. It is better in some ways and not as good in others. Ive had a Forced induction m3 and used to destroy modded 911turbos that would hand me my *** in the e55.
You cant say amg or mcars are better or worse than the other. They are very similar and very different at the same time. I for one love both.
You cant say amg or mcars are better or worse than the other. They are very similar and very different at the same time. I for one love both.
12-13-2008, 10:05 AM
#50
Out Of Control!!
I doubt a tranny upgrade would be needed or that it would be the bottleneck. The 5spd on the E55 is very strong. 2 things kill trannies---HEAT and TORQUE. A 750rwhp turbo E55 would be making probably 800rwtq.....Its high but not THAT high....The 65's with a tune are doing that and I havent heard of any problems yet. A large tranny cooler and ur good to go I would think.
The bottleneck with all modern cars will always be #1 tuning #2cost of custom one off parts for R&D.....
Just look at comparison......Goto EVo forums or Sti forums or M3 or S4 forums and you have a whole bunch of guys letting on little secrets about the groundbreaking "secret killer project" they are doing with their tuner.....Here, the prevailing mantra you'll hear is ..." I wish renntech or VRP or bla bla bla would come out with something for me to buy"
Honestly...this car just needs 650rwhp to be perfect.
The bottleneck with all modern cars will always be #1 tuning #2cost of custom one off parts for R&D.....
Just look at comparison......Goto EVo forums or Sti forums or M3 or S4 forums and you have a whole bunch of guys letting on little secrets about the groundbreaking "secret killer project" they are doing with their tuner.....Here, the prevailing mantra you'll hear is ..." I wish renntech or VRP or bla bla bla would come out with something for me to buy"
Honestly...this car just needs 650rwhp to be perfect.
