bobgodd

I think they were on the phone saying "GO" instead of doing the 3 honks... Which would give him the ever so slightest millisecond of an advantage since there is an ever so slight delay in phone convo

Ol'School

I was actually wondering, you said the M5 was tuned up to around 560 HP (which is about 50 something HPs more than a stock M5) and so it pulled on this S65 the way it did .. I'm wondering how it could do that with 50 more HPs to a S65 when it could barely do that (the pull) to a stock E63 when the M5 was in stock form, knowing the huge Gap between the performance levels of the E63s and the S65s.

Apologies for my poor english lol.

Ol'School

what happened in second gear ? is this how strong an M5 pulls ? or did he start ahead of you ?

Edit: lol sorry I watched the vids without reading your comment, you actually answered my question

bfnnrgn

In the 2nd vid I let off as there was a turn coming up.

CWW

But this is the whole point I was making when I said the vids are staged.

If Gustav did 4 different runs of that S65 v. M5, and the M5 lost in 3 of them, then do you think we'll ever hear about those? No. We will only see the run where the bimmer pulls on the benz.

And the way he sets up his vids is NOT anything close to an accurate representation of what would happen in the real world. You can't deny that they are staged to make the BMW's look better. For example, in situations where a BMW is paired off against a F/I Benz, the race is virtually ALWAYS done from a roll, because if those runs were done from a dig the bimmer would have been toast. That S65 would have whole carlengths on that modded M5 from a dig.

Marky

This race was discussed in 2007. Here is the link: https://mbworld.org/forums/s55-amg-s...rt-bmw-m5.html

I am the owner of the S65 (now sold). I wrote the following:

"A stock BMW M5 has got 507 hp (Euro spec). This M5 was tuned by Kellener. That means other camshafts, exhausts, Supersprint headers and ECU-tuning and about a total of 560 – 570 hp. My car is bone stock (Euro spec, 612 hp). My guess is that the power on the wheels is almost identical between these two cars if you consider the power loss of the automatic gearbox with torque converter. The M5 is equipped with SMG gearbox with much less power loss.

Consider these facts: Two cars with similar wheel power, the M5 is much lighter and also has got better aerodynamics than the S65. If you look at things this way the M5 should have beaten me. Why was it then so even? The only explanation I have is that the power of the S65 is a bit underrated and it delivers more hp than Mercedes says it does. Also the massive torque is a big advantage for the S65.

Btw, the speed at the finish line was almost 170 mph. I don’t know what the result would have been if we could have gone longer. Maybe the better aerodynamics on the BMW had made it faster than me? What do you guys think?

I can also tell you that the Kellener M5 has raced a stock M5 and the Kellener was much faster. I never raced the stock M5 but then I know fore sure that I would have beaten him since I was quite even with the Kellener."

It was very hot that summer day (more than 90 degrees F). At the autumn it was much cooler (43 F). There was a big difference in speed when I crossed the finish line. In the race vs the M5 the speed was about 167 mph and in the autumn the speed was around 180 mph! Maybe my IC-pump wasnt perfect, I dont know.

Here is a race from that autumn, S65 vs E55. The E55 also ran very well. It had a new IC-pump.

The vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&h...&v=xWzv2JbArs0

Here is another vid from that hot summer day. SLR vs Porsche Carrera GT. The SLR is really fast at high speeds!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gtl8Ohk668

Vic55

Its all about effective HP. The gearing and weight clearly hold the 65 down while the lack of parasitic loss (drive train), 7 speeds, and lighter curb weight help the modded 5 catch up. Dont forget that the M5/M6 in S6 mode shifts much faster than the 5 speed stranny in the 65. The 63 suffers from DT loss even due to having a slush box.

Zod

Thank you for coming in and sharing all this info

I have heard a few people here say that an SL65 will pull on a SLR at high speeds hmmm

Also SLR has differretn shift programe much harsher and faster saving you time on those nasty shifts...seems to be ecy/ TCU related

kipper215

The S65 AMG has a curb weight of 4894 and the M5 has a curb weight of 4012. My old EVO 8 weighed 3100 pounds. the M5 has almost a 900 pound advantage and simular HP. the torque of the benz is good for off the line but doesn't help in the top end area. so for me the M5 is a joke. My EVO 8 was putting down 450+ WHP on pump gas and on 100 octane closer to 550 to the wheels. I was eating a lot of cars for breakfast and I think that evo from a roll would kill that bimmer to 150 without breaking a sweat because I would have more WHP and almost a 1000 pound weigh difference. my point is that racing is totally subjective so comparing apples to oranges has little value. I would not be proud of that video simply because the laws of physics were validated. now if that M5 would have beat an SLR or the CGT I would have been very impressed because that is not an easy feat. I couldn't hold my head up saying a beat an S65 with a modded M5. that's like me saying I beat an SLR with my juiced up hayabusa.

Gondon

But Torque is effective up to what speed ? 100 mph? Then HP takes over for top speed since car is already in momentum..And they race up to like 160-180..

IDK Still

Zod

wasn't it derived the torq is actuly also hp and that hp comes from torq or somthing along those lines, sorry do not know the formula

and that the main reason fro the m5/m6 pulling up top was due to the follwoing

gear rations on the 7 gear SMG
SMG shift speed
less parasetic loss through their drive train
and something to do with their torq converter (or what ever it is they have)and the way it is multiplied by hp

improv did a really good post on it expalining it all, and mathematically it wins up top, so

Zod

wasn't it derived the torq is actuly also hp and that hp comes from torq or somthing along those lines, sorry do not know the formula

and that the main reason fro the m5/m6 pulling up top was due to the follwoing

gear rations on the 7 gear SMG
SMG shift speed
less parasetic loss through their drive train
and something to do with their torq converter (or what ever it is they have)and the way it is multiplied by hp

improvz did a really good post on it expalining it all, and mathematically it wins up top, so

sticky2

What happened is what you guys saw, there are no tricks.

That said, Gustav will ONLY show the runs where the BMW wins or puts up a strong showing. You think these guys only run once? There are multiple runs and he sorts through and hand picks the runs that show BMW in the best light. Basically, Gustav is full of it.

Gustav has a giant boner for M5's and will not portray them as mortal and fallable, as they are. This is coming from a BMW guy, where is the run with the S65 vs. a stock M5? You won't see it, because the stock M5 will be blown away.

Gondon

SO he showed the 5th run of The S65 where it's heat soked haha

738 TQ I dont care its not losing

CWW

Yeah, that's exactly what gustav does.

He hand-picks the runs that make the bimmer look the best, and those are the only ones we'll ever see.

Well, that, plus I still think he stages the races to benefit the BMW in every possible way. Like I said before, if that 65 vs. M5 run was done from a dig, then the 65 would have put BUSLENGHTS on the bimmer. But naturally, the run was done from a roll, which conveniently deprives the Benz of its torque advantage...

TMC M5

I wouldn't say that is entirely accurate. Torque is derived by the following equation:

Torque = (Horsepower X 5252)/RPM

How does having a torque advantage such as with the S65, translate during the race? Let's do a hypothetical race to answer this question:

An S65 which should make somewhere around 520rwhp at around 4,750rpm (stock). It will also put down around 640rwtq at around 3,400rpm. In a roll on race starting around 40mph....the S65 should be starting around 3,000rpm. The S65 is right in the sweet spot for torque. The second you drop the hammer it is pulling with its maximum force. There should be over 600rwtq up to about 4,200rpm. At 4,750rpm the S65 is hitting its HP peak rwtq is still a robust 550 #). By the time you hit around 5,800 rpm the auto is shifting into 3rd gear (about 75mph). The rpms now drop to about 3,600rpm where the engine is producing 620+ rwtq. Once again the car is pulling with massive power...the car once again hits it hp peak at 4,750rpm...shifts into 4th at around 118mph. The cycle repeats once again.

To say that torque only matters off the line is very naive. What the S65 brings to the table is high HP...LOWER in the RPM range. In the above example I used some figures obtained from my stock CL65. When my stock CL65 was making 636rwtq at 3,400rpm...it was producing 412rwhp. A modified Kelleners M5 will not be producing that type of rwhp until sometime after 6,500rpm. The M5 makes up for such deficits with better gearing and a higher redline....which helps the rpms stay elevated on the upshifts. Obviously the weight issue comes into play...but torque is a great equalizer. It allows a 900lbs heavier car to stay with another car that probably makes only 50rwhp less. These are just two different approaches to making two very different cars (both of which are extremely fast). I prefer the V12 biturbo approach because I am addicted to torque....however, I have a huge appreciation for the M5/M6 V10.

Tom

Ol'School

you're right .. gearing must've had alot to do with it.

Vic55

And what Tom mentioned rings so true with the S85 engine; it rocks when you shift and keep in it the "sweet spot" RPM range. Yes it sucks the gas tank dry and its not easily accessable at any given moment but it sure is fun to drive! The S85 engine requires premeditation while the AMG's are more of the "mash and go" variety. I have great respect for both having been a former owner of the 55 n/a and 55k engines along with the 65 v12 monster and a current owner of the crazy high reving symphony exhaust BMW.

Ol'School

doesn't it bother you though? the take off from rest? always wanted to ask an M6 owner

Gondon

Look at 32 seconds. The S65 pushes the breaks and its not a reflection haha

BlownV8

Torgue is not derived from horsepower; rather, it quite the opposite. You measure torque and then convert it to HP. HP = (torque * RPM)/5252 You can't have hp without torque since hp is a measure of torque at a specific rpm.

When cars like the S65 have huge torque figures down low that means they also have very usable HP down low. The S65 also carries the HP from a very low point in the RPM curve all the way to top of it's RPM. The HP curve looks more like a torque curve. When I put my Rennteched CL on the dyno, the HP curve was just about flat at 500+ RWHP from 3500 +- to redline. That's an incredible amount of usable hp throughout the RPM range and not just at the peak rpm like the M5. The longer you can keep the torque either flat or increasing through the RPM range the greater hp the engine will make.

Most people just look at the peak HP numbers but that only tells part of the story. It's like saying that if both cars make 500 hp with the same gearing they should accelerate at the same rate. Right....wrong. You really have to look at the torque or hp curve to see the usable HP from the engine.

The tranny and gearing also make a huge difference in acceleration. An S65 with a 7 speed tranny would be an absolute terror. The tranny could convert all that torque to even greater torque at the wheel through the gearing - much like the M5 does with its gearing. That's why the M5 can do what it does on the top end - gearing! Get the M5's tranny in the S65 and it would not even be close.

kipper215

Thanks for explaining that to me. I am know what you are talking about with the top end pwr on the bimmer. I felt the car pull harder and harder on the top end. In the 55 I feel the power bleed off in the top end. It was strange for me because when I got to 130 in the bimmer it felt faster than my 55. As if the torque fell off.

Akademiks

Your CL65, stock was ONLY producing 412rwhp?

Marky

Here you can see it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7hiI...&feature=email




As I said I am the driver of the S65. What you saw was a reflection. It was a very hot summer day and I am sure that the outcome would not be the same if we raced when it was cold outside.

On You Tube (S65 vs M5 Touring), you can read this comment: "So, on a regular day: Kelleners M5 < S65?"

Gustav replays: "Could be. Turbos are more happy with cold than NA engines."

If you still think that its the break lights you see, watch this vid (M5 Kellener vs M6 Kellener). Check out the reflection at 18 seconds (on the M6). I was not the only one with reflections that day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0FZD...e=channel_page

TMC M5

Yes...412rwhp at 3,400rpm. That was not a peak #. The peak hp was 521rwhp at about 4,750rpm. So unlike a truck...the 65 engine still has another 100+rwhp in its bag of tricks over the next 1,350rpm.

Tom