M5 Pulled on S65?
02-27-2009, 01:46 AM
#51
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Mercedes,Porsche etc
the merc S65 is faster,, either the driver did not know what he was doing,
and started in too high a gear, or just was late accelerating..
those GT board vids suk anways their rolling starts are usually not accurate, and have cars that will always be faster sometimes slower,, cause of the lame way they film or do it.
they had a GTR losing to some M5 a while back which is a joke..
GT BOARD is pretty BMW biased too.. if you read their forums posts etc..
better to just look at real drag races.. 1/4 mile and Car and Driver mag
vids..
like the E63 wagon, destroying a AUDI R8 lol
here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkLATjo6Oyo
02-27-2009, 10:27 PM
#52
Member
Id like to chime in here.......Ive been reading about the AMAZING GEARING of the M5 for years now. every single person attributes the M5's domination over the E55 at higher speeds to this fact.
After having run my E55 at higher speeds and logged some parameters....Id like to introduce a new line of thinking if I may.
Whenever a modded E55 that makes 480rwhp races a stockish M5 at 410whp and loses ground over 120mph---> The cry is always the GEARING.
Although I do not discount the value of gearing; What I believe is a more accurate answer is in fact HEAT SOAK. 55k engines have very bad Intercoolers. whenever my STOCK CAR has been over 110mph----> I have seen AIT's rise to over 130*F!! This is on average days 80*F. As the speeds rise we see the AIT's go over 140*F-----> the ECU compensates by pulling timing and releasing some boost. This is to protect the engine. So realistically the E55 that Dyno'd at 480rwhp is actually putting down 460...450...440...430..420...410...400...ect as speeds go up. This is because air/water intercoolers are great at low speeds and quick bursts...but as speeds rise...or more specifically--as heat contiues to build during a run--->air/water intercoolers LOSE effeciancy. you can see it in the 0-120mph vs 0-150mph times of the E55.
e55---0-120mph--14sec
e55---0-150mph--23sec
SLR---0-120mph--11.5
SLR--reaches almost 180mph in 23 sec
Its very interesting watching stock SLR's run at high speed. They have very similar engines with 1000000xtimes better IC's. The SLR's dont seem to fall off at higher speeds.
An E55 with a front mount IC would be MUCH BETTER suited for high speed runs. Starting at 40mph would put the FMIC into its high effeciancy area....then as speeds climb---the effeciancy of the FMIC actually GOES UP slightly. I would bet that with a FMIC in place--everything else stock--the results of a race between it and a stock or modded M5 would be quite different.
Just my 2 cents.
After having run my E55 at higher speeds and logged some parameters....Id like to introduce a new line of thinking if I may.
Whenever a modded E55 that makes 480rwhp races a stockish M5 at 410whp and loses ground over 120mph---> The cry is always the GEARING.
Although I do not discount the value of gearing; What I believe is a more accurate answer is in fact HEAT SOAK. 55k engines have very bad Intercoolers. whenever my STOCK CAR has been over 110mph----> I have seen AIT's rise to over 130*F!! This is on average days 80*F. As the speeds rise we see the AIT's go over 140*F-----> the ECU compensates by pulling timing and releasing some boost. This is to protect the engine. So realistically the E55 that Dyno'd at 480rwhp is actually putting down 460...450...440...430..420...410...400...ect as speeds go up. This is because air/water intercoolers are great at low speeds and quick bursts...but as speeds rise...or more specifically--as heat contiues to build during a run--->air/water intercoolers LOSE effeciancy. you can see it in the 0-120mph vs 0-150mph times of the E55.
e55---0-120mph--14sec
e55---0-150mph--23sec
SLR---0-120mph--11.5
SLR--reaches almost 180mph in 23 sec
Its very interesting watching stock SLR's run at high speed. They have very similar engines with 1000000xtimes better IC's. The SLR's dont seem to fall off at higher speeds.
An E55 with a front mount IC would be MUCH BETTER suited for high speed runs. Starting at 40mph would put the FMIC into its high effeciancy area....then as speeds climb---the effeciancy of the FMIC actually GOES UP slightly. I would bet that with a FMIC in place--everything else stock--the results of a race between it and a stock or modded M5 would be quite different.
Just my 2 cents.
02-28-2009, 01:21 AM
#53
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02 S500 Sport
Id like to chime in here.......Ive been reading about the AMAZING GEARING of the M5 for years now. every single person attributes the M5's domination over the E55 at higher speeds to this fact.
After having run my E55 at higher speeds and logged some parameters....Id like to introduce a new line of thinking if I may.
Whenever a modded E55 that makes 480rwhp races a stockish M5 at 410whp and loses ground over 120mph---> The cry is always the GEARING.
Although I do not discount the value of gearing; What I believe is a more accurate answer is in fact HEAT SOAK. 55k engines have very bad Intercoolers. whenever my STOCK CAR has been over 110mph----> I have seen AIT's rise to over 130*F!! This is on average days 80*F. As the speeds rise we see the AIT's go over 140*F-----> the ECU compensates by pulling timing and releasing some boost. This is to protect the engine. So realistically the E55 that Dyno'd at 480rwhp is actually putting down 460...450...440...430..420...410...400...ect as speeds go up. This is because air/water intercoolers are great at low speeds and quick bursts...but as speeds rise...or more specifically--as heat contiues to build during a run--->air/water intercoolers LOSE effeciancy. you can see it in the 0-120mph vs 0-150mph times of the E55.
e55---0-120mph--14sec
e55---0-150mph--23sec
SLR---0-120mph--11.5
SLR--reaches almost 180mph in 23 sec
Its very interesting watching stock SLR's run at high speed. They have very similar engines with 1000000xtimes better IC's. The SLR's dont seem to fall off at higher speeds.
An E55 with a front mount IC would be MUCH BETTER suited for high speed runs. Starting at 40mph would put the FMIC into its high effeciancy area....then as speeds climb---the effeciancy of the FMIC actually GOES UP slightly. I would bet that with a FMIC in place--everything else stock--the results of a race between it and a stock or modded M5 would be quite different.
Just my 2 cents.
After having run my E55 at higher speeds and logged some parameters....Id like to introduce a new line of thinking if I may.
Whenever a modded E55 that makes 480rwhp races a stockish M5 at 410whp and loses ground over 120mph---> The cry is always the GEARING.
Although I do not discount the value of gearing; What I believe is a more accurate answer is in fact HEAT SOAK. 55k engines have very bad Intercoolers. whenever my STOCK CAR has been over 110mph----> I have seen AIT's rise to over 130*F!! This is on average days 80*F. As the speeds rise we see the AIT's go over 140*F-----> the ECU compensates by pulling timing and releasing some boost. This is to protect the engine. So realistically the E55 that Dyno'd at 480rwhp is actually putting down 460...450...440...430..420...410...400...ect as speeds go up. This is because air/water intercoolers are great at low speeds and quick bursts...but as speeds rise...or more specifically--as heat contiues to build during a run--->air/water intercoolers LOSE effeciancy. you can see it in the 0-120mph vs 0-150mph times of the E55.
e55---0-120mph--14sec
e55---0-150mph--23sec
SLR---0-120mph--11.5
SLR--reaches almost 180mph in 23 sec
Its very interesting watching stock SLR's run at high speed. They have very similar engines with 1000000xtimes better IC's. The SLR's dont seem to fall off at higher speeds.
An E55 with a front mount IC would be MUCH BETTER suited for high speed runs. Starting at 40mph would put the FMIC into its high effeciancy area....then as speeds climb---the effeciancy of the FMIC actually GOES UP slightly. I would bet that with a FMIC in place--everything else stock--the results of a race between it and a stock or modded M5 would be quite different.
Just my 2 cents.
02-28-2009, 03:12 AM
#54
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CLS55 AMG
This is (I think) the numbers I'd posted some time back in another thread that Zod was referring to. It shows that the M5 has an advantage in gearing (and thus torque multiplication) that gives relative parity with the E55's torque adavantage--until the higher gears, which may explain the M cars' slight advantage at triple digit speeds. Of course, we're talking about an S65 here, but the tranny/rearend gears are the same afaik....
Both are correct. The gears are designed such that they keep the engine in its max power band from gear-gear, *and* give substantially higher torque multiplication than the E55 in the process.
We all know that the E55's horsepower is underrated. Dynos are in the 420 hp range, and from trap speeds alone vs. weight they're obviously up in the 530 range, if not higher. But let's use that....this means that since hp is directly proportional to torque, the torque would get scaled up by the same amount, giving 575 "true" peak torque.
This is 575/383 = 150% of the M5's max rated torque. Now, have a look at how much more torque multiplication the M5's gears give it than the E55's: if you take the product of the gear*final drive for each cars' gears, you see that the BMW has a much higher degree of torque multiplication...*particularly* in the higher gears. In the lower gears, the advantage is substantially less, but starting in 4th gear the BMW has an enormous gearing advantage--and it shows:
Compared to E55:
gear E55 mult M5 mult % advantage
1 9.51 14.44 152%
2 5.8 9.59 165%
3 3.74 6.55 175%
4 2.65 5.03 190%
5 2.2 4.2 191%
Notice that the advantage in gearing is negated by the E55's advantage in torque, until the third, and especially fourth gear.
The lower gears' advantage is probably negated somewhat by the forced induction on the E55, which allows the engine's response to give a very flat response, maximizing torque over the power band, while the M5's n/a motor will be a bit more peaky...but when the gearing gives 190% in fourth gear, that's a pretty big advantage to overcome.
We all know that the E55's horsepower is underrated. Dynos are in the 420 hp range, and from trap speeds alone vs. weight they're obviously up in the 530 range, if not higher. But let's use that....this means that since hp is directly proportional to torque, the torque would get scaled up by the same amount, giving 575 "true" peak torque.
This is 575/383 = 150% of the M5's max rated torque. Now, have a look at how much more torque multiplication the M5's gears give it than the E55's: if you take the product of the gear*final drive for each cars' gears, you see that the BMW has a much higher degree of torque multiplication...*particularly* in the higher gears. In the lower gears, the advantage is substantially less, but starting in 4th gear the BMW has an enormous gearing advantage--and it shows:
Compared to E55:
gear E55 mult M5 mult % advantage
1 9.51 14.44 152%
2 5.8 9.59 165%
3 3.74 6.55 175%
4 2.65 5.03 190%
5 2.2 4.2 191%
Notice that the advantage in gearing is negated by the E55's advantage in torque, until the third, and especially fourth gear.
The lower gears' advantage is probably negated somewhat by the forced induction on the E55, which allows the engine's response to give a very flat response, maximizing torque over the power band, while the M5's n/a motor will be a bit more peaky...but when the gearing gives 190% in fourth gear, that's a pretty big advantage to overcome.
02-28-2009, 07:06 AM
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E55
The trick is that they start at 50km/h and never use data loggers for Mb:s, meaning you get results you want= BMW>MB. Nice videos, however.
The only way to really compare them would look at vbox/racelogic data. These videos have too much variation: driver reflex, car speedometer tolerance, fuel octane, fuel amount, tire condition.
Look at these videos for fun, not real results...
For example this video would be evidence that the 335i is faster than a 997 Turbo... (which is bull?%#&)
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e90...vishnu-v2.html
Last edited by kip; 02-28-2009 at 07:12 AM.
02-28-2009, 03:25 PM
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W211 E55AMG
+1
against my friends porsche, 1st pull i always won and all after that i always lost....bulletproof evidence that IAT's killing the car up.
My bad english shines! sorry guys
against my friends porsche, 1st pull i always won and all after that i always lost....bulletproof evidence that IAT's killing the car up.
My bad english shines! sorry guys
Id like to chime in here.......Ive been reading about the AMAZING GEARING of the M5 for years now. every single person attributes the M5's domination over the E55 at higher speeds to this fact.
After having run my E55 at higher speeds and logged some parameters....Id like to introduce a new line of thinking if I may.
Whenever a modded E55 that makes 480rwhp races a stockish M5 at 410whp and loses ground over 120mph---> The cry is always the GEARING.
Although I do not discount the value of gearing; What I believe is a more accurate answer is in fact HEAT SOAK. 55k engines have very bad Intercoolers. whenever my STOCK CAR has been over 110mph----> I have seen AIT's rise to over 130*F!! This is on average days 80*F. As the speeds rise we see the AIT's go over 140*F-----> the ECU compensates by pulling timing and releasing some boost. This is to protect the engine. So realistically the E55 that Dyno'd at 480rwhp is actually putting down 460...450...440...430..420...410...400...ect as speeds go up. This is because air/water intercoolers are great at low speeds and quick bursts...but as speeds rise...or more specifically--as heat contiues to build during a run--->air/water intercoolers LOSE effeciancy. you can see it in the 0-120mph vs 0-150mph times of the E55.
e55---0-120mph--14sec
e55---0-150mph--23sec
SLR---0-120mph--11.5
SLR--reaches almost 180mph in 23 sec
Its very interesting watching stock SLR's run at high speed. They have very similar engines with 1000000xtimes better IC's. The SLR's dont seem to fall off at higher speeds.
An E55 with a front mount IC would be MUCH BETTER suited for high speed runs. Starting at 40mph would put the FMIC into its high effeciancy area....then as speeds climb---the effeciancy of the FMIC actually GOES UP slightly. I would bet that with a FMIC in place--everything else stock--the results of a race between it and a stock or modded M5 would be quite different.
Just my 2 cents.
After having run my E55 at higher speeds and logged some parameters....Id like to introduce a new line of thinking if I may.
Whenever a modded E55 that makes 480rwhp races a stockish M5 at 410whp and loses ground over 120mph---> The cry is always the GEARING.
Although I do not discount the value of gearing; What I believe is a more accurate answer is in fact HEAT SOAK. 55k engines have very bad Intercoolers. whenever my STOCK CAR has been over 110mph----> I have seen AIT's rise to over 130*F!! This is on average days 80*F. As the speeds rise we see the AIT's go over 140*F-----> the ECU compensates by pulling timing and releasing some boost. This is to protect the engine. So realistically the E55 that Dyno'd at 480rwhp is actually putting down 460...450...440...430..420...410...400...ect as speeds go up. This is because air/water intercoolers are great at low speeds and quick bursts...but as speeds rise...or more specifically--as heat contiues to build during a run--->air/water intercoolers LOSE effeciancy. you can see it in the 0-120mph vs 0-150mph times of the E55.
e55---0-120mph--14sec
e55---0-150mph--23sec
SLR---0-120mph--11.5
SLR--reaches almost 180mph in 23 sec
Its very interesting watching stock SLR's run at high speed. They have very similar engines with 1000000xtimes better IC's. The SLR's dont seem to fall off at higher speeds.
An E55 with a front mount IC would be MUCH BETTER suited for high speed runs. Starting at 40mph would put the FMIC into its high effeciancy area....then as speeds climb---the effeciancy of the FMIC actually GOES UP slightly. I would bet that with a FMIC in place--everything else stock--the results of a race between it and a stock or modded M5 would be quite different.
Just my 2 cents.
02-28-2009, 03:44 PM
#57
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SL600
I have yet to see a BMW been beaten in an Mboard event...
The trick is that they start at 50km/h and never use data loggers for Mb:s, meaning you get results you want= BMW>MB. Nice videos, however.
The only way to really compare them would look at vbox/racelogic data. These videos have too much variation: driver reflex, car speedometer tolerance, fuel octane, fuel amount, tire condition.
Look at these videos for fun, not real results...
For example this video would be evidence that the 335i is faster than a 997 Turbo... (which is bull?%#&)
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e90...vishnu-v2.html
The trick is that they start at 50km/h and never use data loggers for Mb:s, meaning you get results you want= BMW>MB. Nice videos, however.
The only way to really compare them would look at vbox/racelogic data. These videos have too much variation: driver reflex, car speedometer tolerance, fuel octane, fuel amount, tire condition.
Look at these videos for fun, not real results...
For example this video would be evidence that the 335i is faster than a 997 Turbo... (which is bull?%#&)
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e90...vishnu-v2.html
It's only a matter of time before gustav releases a video of a 318i outrunning a Veyron...
03-01-2009, 07:51 AM
#59
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