MHP/JRCART....The Rest Of The Story
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Damn Indy i didnt want it to turn out this way for ya, sorry. But it seems like you pissed of an individual(LZH) with much more intellegence than you, (judging by the grasp of english grammar, spelling, rules, etc, wow in like 2 posts i noticed all that!). Again I apologize.
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CLK 63 Black Series, 2009 S550, 2011 Range Rover Supercharged, BMW F800 GS Anniv Edition
Not bitter at all....I'd just like this thread to serve its purpose and not be derailed by room temperature IQ punks like you who think everyone else's mental ceiling is as low as theirs. With that being said, you just made my ignore list.
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No , thank you!! LC huh? He's a BIG DOG, haha!! Guess your sister is in good hands then, he cant make no mistakes, too many Marines he has to set the example for, so guess thats good news for you man!
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This just keeps getting better and better....... 
I have a feeling this will turn into a situation of he said, she said or he did, they did...... maybe doing a dyno/track tuner shootout day isn't such a bad idea after all
I have a feeling this will turn into a situation of he said, she said or he did, they did...... maybe doing a dyno/track tuner shootout day isn't such a bad idea after all
Last edited by MB_Forever; Feb 12, 2009 at 10:23 PM.
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Unless Andy has a good explanation for that set of events, then a lot of folks won't have much use for his business even if the rest of his claims were somehow proven true.
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There is something in Andy's response that doesn't make sense here..... Andy stated that JakPro1 should've contacted him for a refund before jumping on the "bash MHP" wagon. However, Jim (JakPro1) has contacted him about the ECU and about issuing a chargeback many times over a period of 3 months..... what is Andy's explanation to that?
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There is something in Andy's response that doesn't make sense here..... Andy stated that JakPro1 should've contacted him for a refund before jumping on the "bash MHP" wagon. However, Jim (JakPro1) has contacted him about the ECU and about issuing a chargeback many times over a period of 3 months..... what is Andy's explanation to that?
One thing that just occurred to me - does Jakpro's VRP700 car have the VRP bullet trans? If so, it might make more sense since Blkonblkclk's custom, aftermarket trans also didn't respond well to a TCU tune...
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From: Brooklyn
2009 Mini Cooper Clubman S
The problem with Andy's response is twofold for me.
Firstly, to reasonably expect Jakpro to "give them a chance" to fix his TCU after months of being mislead and in fact lied to about it, is beyond stupid. The vast majority of people in his position would never have let it get as far as it did without demanding a refund, so to expect him to wait all that time, deal with all the BS, then expect him, after receiving a product which was absolutely useless, to not voice his grievances here is unbelievable.
Secondly, if Andy had made all of his posts in the same levelheaded and thought out manner that he posted with above (although, as mentioned above and in previous posts, there are definitely inconsistencies) I don't think the issue would be anywhere near as big as it is now. It just goes to show you that people are far more likely to kick you when your down if you are a total jerk, than they would be if you were a nice guy. For example, LET have had some documented problems with their products on this board, but because of their great attitude people tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, something which they definitely do not extend to MHP/Andy.
Firstly, to reasonably expect Jakpro to "give them a chance" to fix his TCU after months of being mislead and in fact lied to about it, is beyond stupid. The vast majority of people in his position would never have let it get as far as it did without demanding a refund, so to expect him to wait all that time, deal with all the BS, then expect him, after receiving a product which was absolutely useless, to not voice his grievances here is unbelievable.
Secondly, if Andy had made all of his posts in the same levelheaded and thought out manner that he posted with above (although, as mentioned above and in previous posts, there are definitely inconsistencies) I don't think the issue would be anywhere near as big as it is now. It just goes to show you that people are far more likely to kick you when your down if you are a total jerk, than they would be if you were a nice guy. For example, LET have had some documented problems with their products on this board, but because of their great attitude people tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, something which they definitely do not extend to MHP/Andy.
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'03 E55, Range Rover Sport Supercharged, Ducati 748R
The problem with Andy's response is twofold for me.
Firstly, to reasonably expect Jakpro to "give them a chance" to fix his TCU after months of being mislead and in fact lied to about it, is beyond stupid. The vast majority of people in his position would never have let it get as far as it did without demanding a refund, so to expect him to wait all that time, deal with all the BS, then expect him, after receiving a product which was absolutely useless, to not voice his grievances here is unbelievable.
Secondly, if Andy had made all of his posts in the same levelheaded and thought out manner that he posted with above (although, as mentioned above and in previous posts, there are definitely inconsistencies) I don't think the issue would be anywhere near as big as it is now. It just goes to show you that people are far more likely to kick you when your down if you are a total jerk, than they would be if you were a nice guy. For example, LET have had some documented problems with their products on this board, but because of their great attitude people tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, something which they definitely do not extend to MHP/Andy.
Firstly, to reasonably expect Jakpro to "give them a chance" to fix his TCU after months of being mislead and in fact lied to about it, is beyond stupid. The vast majority of people in his position would never have let it get as far as it did without demanding a refund, so to expect him to wait all that time, deal with all the BS, then expect him, after receiving a product which was absolutely useless, to not voice his grievances here is unbelievable.
Secondly, if Andy had made all of his posts in the same levelheaded and thought out manner that he posted with above (although, as mentioned above and in previous posts, there are definitely inconsistencies) I don't think the issue would be anywhere near as big as it is now. It just goes to show you that people are far more likely to kick you when your down if you are a total jerk, than they would be if you were a nice guy. For example, LET have had some documented problems with their products on this board, but because of their great attitude people tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, something which they definitely do not extend to MHP/Andy.
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Yes haha, thericker did always like the jokey jokes, plus by looking at the mod list your are one of the smart ones on mbworld, therfore: know this if ever in downtown on winston, san julian, san pedro, gladys between 5th and 8th, thericker, u will be treated with VIP privledges. 
PS: if im not mistaken, looks like a fine pair of Weinmarners in the avatar, excuse my spelling.
PS: if im not mistaken, looks like a fine pair of Weinmarners in the avatar, excuse my spelling.
The other was @ Athena's 1st Vet visit, this toolbag in waiting room insisted she was a Weimi' I had all her breeder/papers/lineage records w/me, I ended up having to serve the pimp hand
in front of all the other customers...It was quite hilarious....Didn't literally smack'em (though I wanted to) just showed him the documents..
ps..I too have been duped in earlier Merc, I bought the Remus $1500 exhaust, then replaced it w/$2k AMG oem cat-back on my old S430
Live & learn
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The problem with Andy's response is twofold for me.
Firstly, to reasonably expect Jakpro to "give them a chance" to fix his TCU after months of being mislead and in fact lied to about it, is beyond stupid. The vast majority of people in his position would never have let it get as far as it did without demanding a refund, so to expect him to wait all that time, deal with all the BS, then expect him, after receiving a product which was absolutely useless, to not voice his grievances here is unbelievable.
Secondly, if Andy had made all of his posts in the same levelheaded and thought out manner that he posted with above (although, as mentioned above and in previous posts, there are definitely inconsistencies) I don't think the issue would be anywhere near as big as it is now. It just goes to show you that people are far more likely to kick you when your down if you are a total jerk, than they would be if you were a nice guy. For example, LET have had some documented problems with their products on this board, but because of their great attitude people tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, something which they definitely do not extend to MHP/Andy.
Firstly, to reasonably expect Jakpro to "give them a chance" to fix his TCU after months of being mislead and in fact lied to about it, is beyond stupid. The vast majority of people in his position would never have let it get as far as it did without demanding a refund, so to expect him to wait all that time, deal with all the BS, then expect him, after receiving a product which was absolutely useless, to not voice his grievances here is unbelievable.
Secondly, if Andy had made all of his posts in the same levelheaded and thought out manner that he posted with above (although, as mentioned above and in previous posts, there are definitely inconsistencies) I don't think the issue would be anywhere near as big as it is now. It just goes to show you that people are far more likely to kick you when your down if you are a total jerk, than they would be if you were a nice guy. For example, LET have had some documented problems with their products on this board, but because of their great attitude people tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, something which they definitely do not extend to MHP/Andy.
1) Ethos- based on credibility
2) Pathos- based on emotion
3) Logos- based on logic
JackPro is #1 and is simply above reproach.
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Our tombstone epitaphs will reflect the way we conducted our lives - both in real life, and increasingly in how we conduct our "virtual lives". Our conduct on forums/IM's/Texts/VM and more will be there forever, stored in perpetuity on a dataserver somewhere, securely backed up somewhere else, instantly available for character reference when needed.
To think that our virtual persona is somehow distinct and not reflective on who we are is a a major failing that we are all going to understand more fully as the data trail we leave behind increases exponentially.
These days, services providing simple employment background checks are falling into disservice, as just the simplest internet forensics exposes a data trail of the person you are investigating. And the younger the person, the more data that he is dragging around.....
I urge you all to think before you post.
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Joined: Jul 2008
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From: Colorado
2021 E63 S Sedan
Why this thread is important
We can all agree that we use this forum to learn more about our cars and to share our successes and failures with each other. This discussion needs to be in the public forum because it has been a huge part of this sub-forum for a long time now, and MHP has been the primary contributor. We all deserve to know which service providers run a respectable and honest business. And because we all have participated in this thread, we all are entitled to not only the facts, but customer satisfaction/dissatisfaction stories as well. Human nature will allow for a digression of the argument into a subjective and sometimes personal attack situation as the debate heats up, but cooler heads must and will prevail.
I will state my opinion as objectively as I can, because non-biased observation can always help. My observation is that MHP is a newcomer to the MB tuning market and wants to establish itself as not only a quality tuner, but a tuner that can provide a unique service (TCU tune in addition to ECU tune), as well as the fastest tune available. In the course of his advertising, he has shown that he is knowledgeable, and very accessible to potential customers. He has also been braggadocios and confrontational. He has used incorrect terminology (e.g. TCU tuning) and presented information as fact, when he is actually in error (e.g. ability to tune TCU and ability to break encrypion).
So look at it from the perspective of the established and respected MB tuners: 1) Who is this guy? 2) What does he mean he can tune the TCU without acually having it in his hand because that's not possible; 3) He's telling everyone that no one in the world is tuning or is capable of tuning the ECU/TCU like he can; 4) He's saying virtually no one can break the new encryption that MB is putting on the new ECU's, except for them? Perhaps he's using old (and less expensive) technology that doesn't write directly to the ECU but rather accesses the ECU indirectly through the K-line where the encryption is applied?
So when MHP calls out the big tuners, why would they want to participate? It would seem that MHP has nothing to lose and everything to gain, whereas the others could only lose. Maybe a faster tune is possible, but is it proven safe for the long term? Remember, the likes of Kleeman and Renntech have AMG engineers at the helm for crying out loud. Bottom line, if I'm one of the big boys, I don't respond to being called out by MHP.
After reading all of the posts, it seems plausible to me the JRCart had his old PC tuning mistakenly put back on his ECU instead of MHP v3. I don't believe MHP is stealing someone else's code. He looks to be guilty of stating facts that are in fact false and misleading. You can't gain respect from your peers or your customers by using inaccurate terminology and by misrepresenting the facts and even the ability of other established tuners. There is enough evidence that the MHP tune is effective for most of his customers (regardless of price), just as there is evidence that his business practices and customer service are less than professional. Jackpro1 is a great example, and despite his outlandish behavior,JRCart also. Both are performance oriented owners that showed a lot of loyalty to MHP. MHP handled these great clients poorly for them to turn on him, that is obvious. If MHP doesn't lie to JackPro1 and instead treat him like the A1 customer he is, all ends up well there. If MHP initially accepts the responsibility of screwing up JRCart's tune instead of blaming Evosport, maybe JRCart isn't pissed at all. If MHP doesn't give misleading information, make false claims, and present itself in a more professional manner, then we the public and his potential customers will respect and have more faith in him.
As for Tim, and the other professional entities that brought information forward, that was stuff that we all need to know. Even if personal gain is a side effect (which I don't believe was the motive for any of them, including Evosport), when MHP misrepresents the facts as much as they did for as long as they did, a reckoning is in order. It is also the right thing to do, that is, stand up for yourself and defend the industry you work for. These people felt a responsibility to set the record straight, and we needed to hear it.
Bottom line for me is that MHP has to act more responsibly to be taken seriously. I don't "feel" any criminal act here, but lessons must be learned, and respect must be earned.
I will state my opinion as objectively as I can, because non-biased observation can always help. My observation is that MHP is a newcomer to the MB tuning market and wants to establish itself as not only a quality tuner, but a tuner that can provide a unique service (TCU tune in addition to ECU tune), as well as the fastest tune available. In the course of his advertising, he has shown that he is knowledgeable, and very accessible to potential customers. He has also been braggadocios and confrontational. He has used incorrect terminology (e.g. TCU tuning) and presented information as fact, when he is actually in error (e.g. ability to tune TCU and ability to break encrypion).
So look at it from the perspective of the established and respected MB tuners: 1) Who is this guy? 2) What does he mean he can tune the TCU without acually having it in his hand because that's not possible; 3) He's telling everyone that no one in the world is tuning or is capable of tuning the ECU/TCU like he can; 4) He's saying virtually no one can break the new encryption that MB is putting on the new ECU's, except for them? Perhaps he's using old (and less expensive) technology that doesn't write directly to the ECU but rather accesses the ECU indirectly through the K-line where the encryption is applied?
So when MHP calls out the big tuners, why would they want to participate? It would seem that MHP has nothing to lose and everything to gain, whereas the others could only lose. Maybe a faster tune is possible, but is it proven safe for the long term? Remember, the likes of Kleeman and Renntech have AMG engineers at the helm for crying out loud. Bottom line, if I'm one of the big boys, I don't respond to being called out by MHP.
After reading all of the posts, it seems plausible to me the JRCart had his old PC tuning mistakenly put back on his ECU instead of MHP v3. I don't believe MHP is stealing someone else's code. He looks to be guilty of stating facts that are in fact false and misleading. You can't gain respect from your peers or your customers by using inaccurate terminology and by misrepresenting the facts and even the ability of other established tuners. There is enough evidence that the MHP tune is effective for most of his customers (regardless of price), just as there is evidence that his business practices and customer service are less than professional. Jackpro1 is a great example, and despite his outlandish behavior,JRCart also. Both are performance oriented owners that showed a lot of loyalty to MHP. MHP handled these great clients poorly for them to turn on him, that is obvious. If MHP doesn't lie to JackPro1 and instead treat him like the A1 customer he is, all ends up well there. If MHP initially accepts the responsibility of screwing up JRCart's tune instead of blaming Evosport, maybe JRCart isn't pissed at all. If MHP doesn't give misleading information, make false claims, and present itself in a more professional manner, then we the public and his potential customers will respect and have more faith in him.
As for Tim, and the other professional entities that brought information forward, that was stuff that we all need to know. Even if personal gain is a side effect (which I don't believe was the motive for any of them, including Evosport), when MHP misrepresents the facts as much as they did for as long as they did, a reckoning is in order. It is also the right thing to do, that is, stand up for yourself and defend the industry you work for. These people felt a responsibility to set the record straight, and we needed to hear it.
Bottom line for me is that MHP has to act more responsibly to be taken seriously. I don't "feel" any criminal act here, but lessons must be learned, and respect must be earned.
Member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 246
Likes: 3
From: Toronto
2011 Black C63 Eurocharged V5
+100000000000000
to all the above posts.
In all this there seems to be several points not addressed by Andy's passionate plea.
1--In another thread he stated that MHP's turn around time for ECU's was 5 days---that it would probably be 2-3 days...but he HAD to say 5 to be safe. Jackpro wait MONTHS AND MONTHS!! Why?
2-We dont know for sure that MHP tune made more power than the VRP tune that Jackpro originally had. Jackpro said; "it felt the same up top but stronger down low". Satco was going to be the place where the results would be shown. We all know that didnt happen. So we have NO PROOF that this was the best tune he has ever had.
3-What do the short comings of other vendors have to do with this situation that involves MHP?
4-Why does it take MONTHS to flash an ECU? Jackpro/Jcart/Rock/MacroCL are members with a TON of rep and weight on these forums. For a person trying to draw business from this pool; you would think a vendor would stay up all night and drop everything to make these guys happy.
Lets for a minute give Andy the benefit of a doubt and believe EVERYTHING he says----what conclusions do we come to??
a)Many of his customers complain of long turn around times
b)There are many unfulfilled promises (be there tomorrow...ok the next day)
c)The tunes "dont take"(whatever that means) half the time
d)The only real data that MHP tunes work is on C63's...and there; they are only slightly better than "competitions" tune
This is the "BEST CASE SCENARIO"...
to all the above posts.
In all this there seems to be several points not addressed by Andy's passionate plea.
1--In another thread he stated that MHP's turn around time for ECU's was 5 days---that it would probably be 2-3 days...but he HAD to say 5 to be safe. Jackpro wait MONTHS AND MONTHS!! Why?
2-We dont know for sure that MHP tune made more power than the VRP tune that Jackpro originally had. Jackpro said; "it felt the same up top but stronger down low". Satco was going to be the place where the results would be shown. We all know that didnt happen. So we have NO PROOF that this was the best tune he has ever had.
3-What do the short comings of other vendors have to do with this situation that involves MHP?
4-Why does it take MONTHS to flash an ECU? Jackpro/Jcart/Rock/MacroCL are members with a TON of rep and weight on these forums. For a person trying to draw business from this pool; you would think a vendor would stay up all night and drop everything to make these guys happy.
Lets for a minute give Andy the benefit of a doubt and believe EVERYTHING he says----what conclusions do we come to??
a)Many of his customers complain of long turn around times
b)There are many unfulfilled promises (be there tomorrow...ok the next day)
c)The tunes "dont take"(whatever that means) half the time
d)The only real data that MHP tunes work is on C63's...and there; they are only slightly better than "competitions" tune
This is the "BEST CASE SCENARIO"...
MBWorld Founder
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Scottsdale (aka The Surface of the Sun)
If MHP initially accepts the responsibility of screwing up JRCart's tune instead of blaming Evosport, maybe JRCart isn't pissed at all. If MHP doesn't give misleading information, make false claims, and present itself in a more professional manner, then we the public and his potential customers will respect and have more faith in him.
If Andy had simply accepted and 1) offered to fix it and/or 2) offered to make good on the money back guarantee, it is very possible that none of this story would have been made public. To this day MHP refuses to give JRCart his money back.
That speaks louder then anything IMHO.
MHP and his friends/allies can attempt to deflect by blaming everyone else under the sun, but this issue was brought about due to his own decisions. And as I teach my 4 year old son, some decisions have consequences.
Thanks
Brad
Super Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 556
Likes: 1
2009 C63 Capri Blue
This is correct 100%. I advised JRCart to NOT go public and attempt to settle this professionally. I advised him that it would get very ugly. However, Andy refused to listen to JRCart, refused to accept what was reality and started to insult him and everyone else involved. Threatening lawsuits, etc. Then Andy attacked Jim and evosport on another site, and JRCart was left with little option.
I don't have a strong feeling either way - I'm trying to sort through the 80% BS, 19% opinions, and get to the 1% facts. I do have one question though - if a customer of LET, VRP, or God forbid Evosport has posted the same thing (about those companies), would that thread still be going? I'm not accusing, just asking the administrators to step back and take an objective look at this. The timing of such criticism of MHP coinciding with MHP's inability to defend itself speaks volumes. That it occurs on a forum managed by a competing vendor also says something.
How Evosport (as administrators) handles all the bashing will play into future decision making by potential customers. If it appears you are letting people rip MHP more than you would someone else (I said "if", I'm not saying you are), you may gain some customers (if MHP leaves) but you will lose others (due to lack of respect). Just my $.02 as an impartial observer.
(Note: I am an Evosport customer. I am not a MHP customer.)
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From: Philadelphia, PA
2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
We can all agree that we use this forum to learn more about our cars and to share our successes and failures with each other. This discussion needs to be in the public forum because it has been a huge part of this sub-forum for a long time now, and MHP has been the primary contributor. We all deserve to know which service providers run a respectable and honest business. And because we all have participated in this thread, we all are entitled to not only the facts, but customer satisfaction/dissatisfaction stories as well. Human nature will allow for a digression of the argument into a subjective and sometimes personal attack situation as the debate heats up, but cooler heads must and will prevail.
I will state my opinion as objectively as I can, because non-biased observation can always help. My observation is that MHP is a newcomer to the MB tuning market and wants to establish itself as not only a quality tuner, but a tuner that can provide a unique service (TCU tune in addition to ECU tune), as well as the fastest tune available. In the course of his advertising, he has shown that he is knowledgeable, and very accessible to potential customers. He has also been braggadocios and confrontational. He has used incorrect terminology (e.g. TCU tuning) and presented information as fact, when he is actually in error (e.g. ability to tune TCU and ability to break encrypion).
So look at it from the perspective of the established and respected MB tuners: 1) Who is this guy? 2) What does he mean he can tune the TCU without acually having it in his hand because that's not possible; 3) He's telling everyone that no one in the world is tuning or is capable of tuning the ECU/TCU like he can; 4) He's saying virtually no one can break the new encryption that MB is putting on the new ECU's, except for them? Perhaps he's using old (and less expensive) technology that doesn't write directly to the ECU but rather accesses the ECU indirectly through the K-line where the encryption is applied?
So when MHP calls out the big tuners, why would they want to participate? It would seem that MHP has nothing to lose and everything to gain, whereas the others could only lose. Maybe a faster tune is possible, but is it proven safe for the long term? Remember, the likes of Kleeman and Renntech have AMG engineers at the helm for crying out loud. Bottom line, if I'm one of the big boys, I don't respond to being called out by MHP.
After reading all of the posts, it seems plausible to me the JRCart had his old PC tuning mistakenly put back on his ECU instead of MHP v3. I don't believe MHP is stealing someone else's code. He looks to be guilty of stating facts that are in fact false and misleading. You can't gain respect from your peers or your customers by using inaccurate terminology and by misrepresenting the facts and even the ability of other established tuners. There is enough evidence that the MHP tune is effective for most of his customers (regardless of price), just as there is evidence that his business practices and customer service are less than professional. Jackpro1 is a great example, and despite his outlandish behavior,JRCart also. Both are performance oriented owners that showed a lot of loyalty to MHP. MHP handled these great clients poorly for them to turn on him, that is obvious. If MHP doesn't lie to JackPro1 and instead treat him like the A1 customer he is, all ends up well there. If MHP initially accepts the responsibility of screwing up JRCart's tune instead of blaming Evosport, maybe JRCart isn't pissed at all. If MHP doesn't give misleading information, make false claims, and present itself in a more professional manner, then we the public and his potential customers will respect and have more faith in him.
As for Tim, and the other professional entities that brought information forward, that was stuff that we all need to know. Even if personal gain is a side effect (which I don't believe was the motive for any of them, including Evosport), when MHP misrepresents the facts as much as they did for as long as they did, a reckoning is in order. It is also the right thing to do, that is, stand up for yourself and defend the industry you work for. These people felt a responsibility to set the record straight, and we needed to hear it.
Bottom line for me is that MHP has to act more responsibly to be taken seriously. I don't "feel" any criminal act here, but lessons must be learned, and respect must be earned.
I will state my opinion as objectively as I can, because non-biased observation can always help. My observation is that MHP is a newcomer to the MB tuning market and wants to establish itself as not only a quality tuner, but a tuner that can provide a unique service (TCU tune in addition to ECU tune), as well as the fastest tune available. In the course of his advertising, he has shown that he is knowledgeable, and very accessible to potential customers. He has also been braggadocios and confrontational. He has used incorrect terminology (e.g. TCU tuning) and presented information as fact, when he is actually in error (e.g. ability to tune TCU and ability to break encrypion).
So look at it from the perspective of the established and respected MB tuners: 1) Who is this guy? 2) What does he mean he can tune the TCU without acually having it in his hand because that's not possible; 3) He's telling everyone that no one in the world is tuning or is capable of tuning the ECU/TCU like he can; 4) He's saying virtually no one can break the new encryption that MB is putting on the new ECU's, except for them? Perhaps he's using old (and less expensive) technology that doesn't write directly to the ECU but rather accesses the ECU indirectly through the K-line where the encryption is applied?
So when MHP calls out the big tuners, why would they want to participate? It would seem that MHP has nothing to lose and everything to gain, whereas the others could only lose. Maybe a faster tune is possible, but is it proven safe for the long term? Remember, the likes of Kleeman and Renntech have AMG engineers at the helm for crying out loud. Bottom line, if I'm one of the big boys, I don't respond to being called out by MHP.
After reading all of the posts, it seems plausible to me the JRCart had his old PC tuning mistakenly put back on his ECU instead of MHP v3. I don't believe MHP is stealing someone else's code. He looks to be guilty of stating facts that are in fact false and misleading. You can't gain respect from your peers or your customers by using inaccurate terminology and by misrepresenting the facts and even the ability of other established tuners. There is enough evidence that the MHP tune is effective for most of his customers (regardless of price), just as there is evidence that his business practices and customer service are less than professional. Jackpro1 is a great example, and despite his outlandish behavior,JRCart also. Both are performance oriented owners that showed a lot of loyalty to MHP. MHP handled these great clients poorly for them to turn on him, that is obvious. If MHP doesn't lie to JackPro1 and instead treat him like the A1 customer he is, all ends up well there. If MHP initially accepts the responsibility of screwing up JRCart's tune instead of blaming Evosport, maybe JRCart isn't pissed at all. If MHP doesn't give misleading information, make false claims, and present itself in a more professional manner, then we the public and his potential customers will respect and have more faith in him.
As for Tim, and the other professional entities that brought information forward, that was stuff that we all need to know. Even if personal gain is a side effect (which I don't believe was the motive for any of them, including Evosport), when MHP misrepresents the facts as much as they did for as long as they did, a reckoning is in order. It is also the right thing to do, that is, stand up for yourself and defend the industry you work for. These people felt a responsibility to set the record straight, and we needed to hear it.
Bottom line for me is that MHP has to act more responsibly to be taken seriously. I don't "feel" any criminal act here, but lessons must be learned, and respect must be earned.
I have to disagree here. There is always another option. Only since the internet era have people felt "obligated" to air dirty laundry in such a public forum. 20 years ago, in a similar situation, no one would have taken out a full page ad to convey their message.
I don't have a strong feeling either way - I'm trying to sort through the 80% BS, 19% opinions, and get to the 1% facts. I do have one question though - if a customer of LET, VRP, or God forbid Evosport has posted the same thing (about those companies), would that thread still be going? I'm not accusing, just asking the administrators to step back and take an objective look at this. The timing of such criticism of MHP coinciding with MHP's inability to defend itself speaks volumes. That it occurs on a forum managed by a competing vendor also says something.
How Evosport (as administrators) handles all the bashing will play into future decision making by potential customers. If it appears you are letting people rip MHP more than you would someone else (I said "if", I'm not saying you are), you may gain some customers (if MHP leaves) but you will lose others (due to lack of respect). Just my $.02 as an impartial observer.
(Note: I am an Evosport customer. I am not a MHP customer.)
I don't have a strong feeling either way - I'm trying to sort through the 80% BS, 19% opinions, and get to the 1% facts. I do have one question though - if a customer of LET, VRP, or God forbid Evosport has posted the same thing (about those companies), would that thread still be going? I'm not accusing, just asking the administrators to step back and take an objective look at this. The timing of such criticism of MHP coinciding with MHP's inability to defend itself speaks volumes. That it occurs on a forum managed by a competing vendor also says something.
How Evosport (as administrators) handles all the bashing will play into future decision making by potential customers. If it appears you are letting people rip MHP more than you would someone else (I said "if", I'm not saying you are), you may gain some customers (if MHP leaves) but you will lose others (due to lack of respect). Just my $.02 as an impartial observer.
(Note: I am an Evosport customer. I am not a MHP customer.)
Agree w/ AMS as well... three threads, all discussing similiar issues, with lots of cross-posting and off-topic side conversations = FTL... whew is it a bunch to keep up with. IMHO, of course.
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I have to disagree here. There is always another option. Only since the internet era have people felt "obligated" to air dirty laundry in such a public forum. 20 years ago, in a similar situation, no one would have taken out a full page ad to convey their message.
I don't have a strong feeling either way - I'm trying to sort through the 80% BS, 19% opinions, and get to the 1% facts. I do have one question though - if a customer of LET, VRP, or God forbid Evosport has posted the same thing (about those companies), would that thread still be going? I'm not accusing, just asking the administrators to step back and take an objective look at this. The timing of such criticism of MHP coinciding with MHP's inability to defend itself speaks volumes. That it occurs on a forum managed by a competing vendor also says something.
How Evosport (as administrators) handles all the bashing will play into future decision making by potential customers. If it appears you are letting people rip MHP more than you would someone else (I said "if", I'm not saying you are), you may gain some customers (if MHP leaves) but you will lose others (due to lack of respect). Just my $.02 as an impartial observer.
(Note: I am an Evosport customer. I am not a MHP customer.)
I don't have a strong feeling either way - I'm trying to sort through the 80% BS, 19% opinions, and get to the 1% facts. I do have one question though - if a customer of LET, VRP, or God forbid Evosport has posted the same thing (about those companies), would that thread still be going? I'm not accusing, just asking the administrators to step back and take an objective look at this. The timing of such criticism of MHP coinciding with MHP's inability to defend itself speaks volumes. That it occurs on a forum managed by a competing vendor also says something.
How Evosport (as administrators) handles all the bashing will play into future decision making by potential customers. If it appears you are letting people rip MHP more than you would someone else (I said "if", I'm not saying you are), you may gain some customers (if MHP leaves) but you will lose others (due to lack of respect). Just my $.02 as an impartial observer.
(Note: I am an Evosport customer. I am not a MHP customer.)
Gravedgr,
The thing is, NONE of these proven and professional companies started the storm so your question is not relevant. If these other companies had a history similar to MHP's, then a speculation could be made. We will never know what would happen to the threads if Evosport would have started all the ruckus. This should not be the focus, in my opinion. I see your objective concerns from your post, but I just think your speculation just muddies the waters.
MHP has been making questionable claims for quite some time now, and gettin in the face of the other tuners at the same time. After enough negative things happen, the cauldron will blow. MHP has been putting the world on notice for a long time now. The world is responding and must be given there due process as well. It's MHP's fault they picked on Evosport, who coincidently, admins the site. But it's just coincidence. Evosport shouldn't lose respect for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and for responding to accusations they did not create. Actually, it would have been more unfair to everyone interested in ECU tuning to cut it off before the facts were given.
The timing you speak of is MHP's doing as well, not the admins. Andy has had difficulty playing by the rules, and on top of that, he forfeited the chance he was given (by the admin) to fully respond. His absence is no one's fault but his and the admin does not appear to be taking advantage of it in the way you implicate.
WE SHOULD NOT REFOCUS BLAME HERE. Just for the record, I have a Kleeman tune, and therefore no allegiance to any other tuner. I have learned from MHP and Evosport through these forums. I respect everyone's knowledge and am greatful for all the constructive and intelligent posts.
I respect your opinion a well, and if you see poor judgement being exercised by the admin then you are certainly entitled to speak out. It's just that the admin has also been accused (by MHP) and is entitled to respond. If Andy can't play by the rules by controlling his personal conduct, he forfeits his "airtime" by his choice, not the admins. I think it's a fair fight, and it appears no one is cheating.
