Jim,
I've been on here longer than you, and I've been posting on the "other" site since '02. You're the one that's new to this site, and acting like you know it all. I should point out that YOU'RE THE ONE that originally drank Andy's Kool-aid, and bought in hook, line, and sinker. You went off on anyone that dared to try and tell not to believe the hype. You were probably responsible for most of the people that decided to go with MHP. Maybe you should think about that.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I don't care for Andy, and was put on probation because I went off on him. My whole point is that this thing seems shady, and I would like to hear from Powerchip on your issue.

Sit tight big boy, the technical evidence is going to be posted up this morning. Your snide comments are not welcome, if you have questions ask them, just as I stated in the closing lines of my original post. Yesterday several of you doubted there was anyone else that would come forward, you questioned me when I said I had been contacted by several other that too had problems with their MHP tune and one of them came forward and I just recieved confirmation that another will be coming forward as well.

I already said I feel somewhat responsible for people buying into Andy's tunes but I was also the first to come forward. I'm trying to make things right but I am being slammed by you and a handful of others in the process. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, are you? Let's see if you appologize to me later this morning when I post up my evidence...something tells me you are not man enough

INDYJOE; look what I found here, it looks like another satisfied MHP customer to me.....LOL!

....but I was just making that stuff up, right?

In case you or anyone is wondering, "Dave" is Dave Kasper Andy's partner/tuner.

Listen, maybe you should actually read posts instead of just responding immediately. I never said you were making stuff up. I've always been suspect of MHP since the beginning, and said so many times. In fact, here's a PM that I sent ON DECEMBER 1ST after receiving my "warning":

"I think MHP can tune, but I don't think it's close to being perfected. Jim's car actually went slower. The tune in Markos car didn't even work, yet Andy was touting it as a record breaking run that performed great because it had the TCU in the car. WTF? That's like saying a bumper sticker can make incredible power just because it's on the car. JT's car had a bunch of other work done that wasn't mentioned. There have been several examples (not just on this forum) where MHP tunes have had problems."

I encouraged people to come forward, especially Powerchip, so it's nice to see others stepping up. I'm on your side on this one, but you're too stupid to realize it.

Here is some information from Powerchip that may help to illustrate some of the issues.

---
Most after market "engine tuners" use a BDM or Background Debugging Module tool to access the memory of the microprocessor and eprom
95% of tuners use a BDM tool and knowledge of the schematic of the ME9.7 ECU would not be able to read the ECU other than with the evc BDM100 because the "maps" or variables inside the ecu are stored in the external eprom.



Using the BDM to access to the ECU once it is programmed with a tuners file is prevented by tags inserted on writing a tuned file. This is a commonly accepted practice by all tuners to "secure" their work. Each registered tuner has a unique number assigned to it, and it means that a tuner cannot read another tuners work using commercially available BDM equipment.

Attached is a screen shot of the NOREAD tag with Powerchips unique ID "before MHP" and " after MHP", the unique number Powerchip uses has been obscured in the black box below.

BEFORE:


AFTER:


Other avenues exist like writing the ECU over diagnostics; however any file written over diagnostics would erase our copyright tag. Powerchips own ME9.7 reflash tool over diagnostics is close to being finished and is in the final stages of testing .



Thus we have established two facts the ECU has NOT been rewritten thru the diagnostic connector, nor with BDM equipment.

One way of knowing more information about how other tuners that flash over diagnostics and not using BDM could provide details of what BDM memory address and CS lines they use with a BDM device such as PEMICRO BDM5xx



Because Powerchips own unique copyright tags were present allowing ECU readout using BDM100 software, we did a checksum comparison between the file we last programmed into the car in question and the car "after MHP tuning".



Had MHP enabled ‘noread’ protection like other registered tuners ALWAYS put into their code. or had they (or any other registered tuner) have entered their own unique tuning ID number in the code, Powerchip (or indeed any other tuner other than the copyright owner) would have been locked out from reading or examining the file that was contained in the ECU.

To understand how this was done one must first understand the ME9.7 ECU also stores its immobilizer data and map data on the external eprom, thus only the portion where the maps are located inside the eprom, from address 1c2000xH-1fffffxH need be compared. In other words we simply compared the map data only.

The result? Nothing was changed from the last Powerchip tune:



---
Hopefully this helps to settle the "speculation" vs. "fact" debate on what JRCart has stated.

Thanks Brad, this is the proof I have been promising people.

With a color 40 column Commodore 1702 monitor? You da man!

Anything is possible. That's why I never make a bar bet. It's the probability that sways my thinking. Somthing in the area of the stimulous package cost, about 800 billion to one.
Jimmy

Devil's advocate here....

Is it possible that when Andy received Jim's PC tuned ECU for the first time, he saved it? Then when putting the MHP tune on he accidentally flashed with the saved PC tune instead of his own? That would result in what you found when you read Jim's "MHP" tuned ecu.

Just wondering.

Even if it was an "honest error," such incompetence is unacceptable for so-called professional tuners.

Yep. Can't dispute that.

There's also the issue of multiple customer's saying that the tune didn't "take". Meaning their ecu looked exactly the same as when they sent it to MHP. Why wouldn't MHP have just flashed every car with the PC tune that they allegedly pirated?

For the record, I'm actually on the side of the customer here. Just typing what's in my brain.


**EDIT*

Wait, wait wait....

I think I get it. Evosport and Jim are claiming that Andy didn't tune the ecu AT ALL. That would also explain the mystery tunes that "didn't take". He was collecting money without tuning at all for some people?

I don't know. My brain hurts. There's too much information here for my pea brain to comprehend.

I fancy mtself a pretty smart guy...but a lot of this flying over my head like a F16 on full afterburner.....

Is what you are saying the following;

Every tuner can put a "lock" on their tune so that if you dont have the "key"(every tuner has their own)....you cant access the data.

You tried your "key" and it opened the "door"

Then when you actually compared the data on the MHP tune it was a 100% match to the PC tune...

Does that about sum it up for us NON-TECHIE"S?

I wonder if he "accidentally" sent the money back to the customer.

I'll play Devil's Advocate #2:

What if with all the MHP....BG tuning....and another CA Bosch Tuner involved in this mess...and with ECUs and TCUs flying about the country haphazardly....someone "forgot" to actually tune jrcart's ECU. I know it sounds somewhat implausible.... but given some of the stuff I have been reading lately the truth does seem stranger than fiction....

Now mind you this doesn't say much for MHP's attention to details (which no one would probably defend)...but I just can't bring myself to believe (even with my colored past with Andy) that MHP/BG Tuning or whoever else involved would actually use a Powerchip tune file as their own.

Is there any diagnostic check in the ECU to see when the last time the ECU was flashed? If there is...that could tell us alot about the tune currently on jrcart's ECU.

Tom

While discussing this with my attorneys last night they posed a couple of good questions about the situation. They asked if Andy and Dave were partners in MHP or if Dave was an independent contractor or vendor to MHP. The reason they asked is that they stated that if Dave did not satisfy his obligations or provide the proper service or goods that Andy might have grounds for a suit against Dave. They did say that if they are inded two seperate companies that anyone that got "ripped-off" could go after both parties to recover damages. They also stated that some of you guys that have been without your ECU for long periods of time may be entitled to more significant damages due to hardships. I don't like lawsuits except in extreme situations and when left with no other options, I am not telling anyone to file any suits, however we are entitled to refunds. Hopefully Andy does not step up and do the right thing and refund our money. I am just telling you guys some of your basic rights and that you most likely have grounds for suit if deemed as needed. Obviously law suites of this nature are expensive and time consuming, but it only costs a couple hundred buck to have a case filed in small claims court, which in most jurisdictions some the dollar amounts we are talking about will qualify for small claims.

I think you are jumping the gun here. Before the posse goes out and does anything, let those customers impacted talk to Andy first about getting things straight. If things aren't rectified, they should seek their own counsel.
I am sure that your attorneys wouldn't be thrilled about you giving out legal advice on an internet forum (regardless of how big of a retainer you have with them).

Tom

Wow. I've been off the board since November and it seems I've missed a lot. I'm still digesting all the info, but I do have a question for Brad:

From your screen shots, it looks like each field is 2 hexidecimal bits long (256 character options), and from the blacked out area it looks like the "key" is only 3 fields long. If that's true, that means there are only 16.7 million possible key entries. Wouldn't it be possible to write a program to try and "brute force" the key on any particular map?

Given the speed of a normal desktop PC, it seems this would be crackable in a matter of minutes, hours, or days depending on the speed of the BDM connection (9600 / 8N1?). Any thoughts on whether someone could crack/has cracked the PowerChips key and is using their tune as a base?

That came way later. Try 300. By time he gets the message, Andy will be off suspension.

Who said anything about any posse's? AS for my attorneys, actually they are watching this thread and the others pertaining to this situation (and laughing), they are the ones that volunteered the info to me. I clearly stated I am not telling anyone to file any suits and that I am just making people aware of some of their rights should Andy not step up.

It happens...human error. See my earlier post a page or two back that Otoupalik responded to.

As far as lawsuits go, it might not be the time to file one, but it's damn sure time to prepare if you've been caught up in this mess.

If MHP is going to refund money, the people involved need to set a hard deadline for receiving the funds; otherwise I fear you'll see more of "tomorrow", "it's in the mail", etc., as evidenced clearly in Jakpro's case.

If it's going to happen, it needs to happen (be in your hands) within a week of his agreement to refund.

No, not possible. They could put it back to stock, but not back to Powerchip.

Yep

I guess anything is possible. I am certainly not an expert on hacking. However, I think that it would be very difficult and time consuming. But even if the code could be cracked, the check sums and the actual maps would be different.

Thanks
brad

Thanks god I have powerchip tune. This sounds like another Speed Innovation thing from Jesse LOL.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/12/10/nfl-st...me-for-a-ride/

Woah! I feel technically inferior right about now Glad some of you guys are in the know...

Thank you, at least you can read and understood the meaning of my post concering legal action. I was pretty clear in my post, but obviously not clear enough for at least one person.