The dyno discussion!!!!
09-03-2009, 06:56 PM
#51
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
VRP HEM - First Post
Also, here is the quote directly from that post....
I have been looking into better exhaust header design for exhaust manifolds on 55s for some time now. Back in 2004 I have designed a shorty style header that is now sold by evosport. Although pretty, it's ultimate limitation on Kompressor cars is 1.625'' primaries. There is only so much exhaust that can flow through small diameter pipe.
We at VRP already offer a full-length race style 1.75'' headers, more info can be found on our website - www.vrptuning.com
This time around I had a bit more time and following criteria for the design.
1. It had to be a shorty design that will retain stock location for catalytic converters.
2. Easy, bolt in installation that can be done by a dealer or any DIY mechanic.
3. Lower price point, none of us likes to pay $5000 for headers.
4. Reliable - more complex the design, more welds it has, more chances for leaks and failures.
5. Most importantly - it has to make power.
After much trial and error, the design you see is what we are going in production with. I have tried several designs in my quest for equal length, but none could pass first four criteria. Either it required hands like a child for installation or will take a lot of labor to build, which raises the cost or will require moving engine from engine mounts for installation. Also in my past testing I also found that equal length designs work better on high-rpm, high compression, agrresively cammed engines - that are not found under the hoods of modern Mercedes and AMGs.
Final design has primary pipes of 1.75'', I moved last primary away from interferring with other three cylinders, opened up exhaust flange that mates to the exhaust manifolds to 2'' and most importantly added volume to the collector to reduce backpressure.
On a car equipped with our pulleys, 80 mm TB, K&N filters and Powerchip software we picked up 26RWHP and 23 RWTQ. The HEM allows the car to breathe on top. On normally aspirated engines, I expect the gains to be in 12-15RWHP range.
We at VRP already offer a full-length race style 1.75'' headers, more info can be found on our website - www.vrptuning.com
This time around I had a bit more time and following criteria for the design.
1. It had to be a shorty design that will retain stock location for catalytic converters.
2. Easy, bolt in installation that can be done by a dealer or any DIY mechanic.
3. Lower price point, none of us likes to pay $5000 for headers.
4. Reliable - more complex the design, more welds it has, more chances for leaks and failures.
5. Most importantly - it has to make power.
After much trial and error, the design you see is what we are going in production with. I have tried several designs in my quest for equal length, but none could pass first four criteria. Either it required hands like a child for installation or will take a lot of labor to build, which raises the cost or will require moving engine from engine mounts for installation. Also in my past testing I also found that equal length designs work better on high-rpm, high compression, agrresively cammed engines - that are not found under the hoods of modern Mercedes and AMGs.
Final design has primary pipes of 1.75'', I moved last primary away from interferring with other three cylinders, opened up exhaust flange that mates to the exhaust manifolds to 2'' and most importantly added volume to the collector to reduce backpressure.
On a car equipped with our pulleys, 80 mm TB, K&N filters and Powerchip software we picked up 26RWHP and 23 RWTQ. The HEM allows the car to breathe on top. On normally aspirated engines, I expect the gains to be in 12-15RWHP range.
Last edited by MB_Forever; 09-04-2009 at 12:34 AM.
09-03-2009, 06:57 PM
#52
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Alan,
I am ending my discussion with you. Now you want to question my credibility/experience because I don't have the time/patience to post up all my dyno slips to prove I've experienced various DAs from 10 years of drag racing. I don't give a **** about DA when I drag race Alan. I just don't. I don't drag race to break records, beat other people, brag on forums, and I don't give a flying **** about DA when I race. I said this in another post that all I've used DA for is my own personal reference, not to compare my car to other cars, not to hope and pray for records if it were better, not any of that nonsense. You guys want to break out your calculators and correct everything to fulfill dreams of being the baddest around and I have never been one of those people. The DAs here in Chicago vary drastically, but THAT IS RACING. The bottom line is I go to the drag strip to see how my car can do for my OWN reference/enjoyment and to have fun.
I don't even know if I still have all my time slips. All my experience has come from the real world and I'll be damned if you are going to question my credibility and experience because you take **** so personally and get so defensive when I don't believe your god damned pointless dyno numbers. You need to prove your credibility to me, not the other way around. You keep wanting to say I attack you and I talk about you but you cannot show ONE PLACE where I talked about you in Dave's thread. You were the one who contacted me and asked for my advice when building your car, but now you question my credibility because you've built a quick E55 and anyone who questions it's all-mightiness must be out of their minds. I don't have the time of patience to keep up this asinine discussion going around and around in circles with you and then be called to prove to you that I have experience. That's a joke and a half.
This is a stupid discussion and a stupid argument. I have posted everything I have to say any not one person has been able to prove otherwise, with Mo being the only person who has respectfully tried to make sense of the numbers but still falls short
BTW Mo - out of respect - Dave's car was tuned last week by Jeremy... so the 5rwhp because his tune is "old" is no good. Dave has EVO shorty headers which if you want to get real nit picky probably make a few ponies over Vadim's design. Dave dyno'd with HREs which are fairly lightweight and would be a wash IMO between the wheels Alan used... the only difference between them realistically is Alan's rotors... which I just don't think would should up on a Dyno. It was a good try but you are still at 20 or MAYBE 25rwhp over Dave with Alan's car, not 50... sorry.
I am ending my discussion with you. Now you want to question my credibility/experience because I don't have the time/patience to post up all my dyno slips to prove I've experienced various DAs from 10 years of drag racing. I don't give a **** about DA when I drag race Alan. I just don't. I don't drag race to break records, beat other people, brag on forums, and I don't give a flying **** about DA when I race. I said this in another post that all I've used DA for is my own personal reference, not to compare my car to other cars, not to hope and pray for records if it were better, not any of that nonsense. You guys want to break out your calculators and correct everything to fulfill dreams of being the baddest around and I have never been one of those people. The DAs here in Chicago vary drastically, but THAT IS RACING. The bottom line is I go to the drag strip to see how my car can do for my OWN reference/enjoyment and to have fun.
I don't even know if I still have all my time slips. All my experience has come from the real world and I'll be damned if you are going to question my credibility and experience because you take **** so personally and get so defensive when I don't believe your god damned pointless dyno numbers. You need to prove your credibility to me, not the other way around. You keep wanting to say I attack you and I talk about you but you cannot show ONE PLACE where I talked about you in Dave's thread. You were the one who contacted me and asked for my advice when building your car, but now you question my credibility because you've built a quick E55 and anyone who questions it's all-mightiness must be out of their minds. I don't have the time of patience to keep up this asinine discussion going around and around in circles with you and then be called to prove to you that I have experience. That's a joke and a half.
This is a stupid discussion and a stupid argument. I have posted everything I have to say any not one person has been able to prove otherwise, with Mo being the only person who has respectfully tried to make sense of the numbers but still falls short
BTW Mo - out of respect - Dave's car was tuned last week by Jeremy... so the 5rwhp because his tune is "old" is no good. Dave has EVO shorty headers which if you want to get real nit picky probably make a few ponies over Vadim's design. Dave dyno'd with HREs which are fairly lightweight and would be a wash IMO between the wheels Alan used... the only difference between them realistically is Alan's rotors... which I just don't think would should up on a Dyno. It was a good try but you are still at 20 or MAYBE 25rwhp over Dave with Alan's car, not 50... sorry.
You may not give a flying *** about DA but you sure do about dyno numbers, and to me that's *** backwards. To each their own. I get great pleasure out of drag racing and sooner or later I'm going to give bracket racing a shot. Maybe we could both agree that DA may come into play then.
Please don't use my name in your dyno comparisons and I promise I'll stay out of your discussions and threads. I'll be more than happy to end this discussion with you, just keep my name out of your post and I'll do the same. Hopefully we both agree to disagree because it's pretty obvious you're getting upset. Fair enough?
09-03-2009, 07:10 PM
#53
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Jay..... even if you consider Marco's car, which is probably one the strongest and fastest 65 ever, it trapped 130 mph once (not 134 mph) and it has over 820 hp 
........ With 18% drivetrain, I'd estimate his car is making close to 650 rwhp yet trapping only 130 mph. Even with 250 lbs difference in weight difference, the traps don't correspond to Marcus' estimates. This would put Marco in the same position Alan is being put in.... either he is not dynoing that high or something is wrong with his car or track equipment he ran at or something else unknown 
........ With 18% drivetrain, I'd estimate his car is making close to 650 rwhp yet trapping only 130 mph. Even with 250 lbs difference in weight difference, the traps don't correspond to Marcus' estimates. This would put Marco in the same position Alan is being put in.... either he is not dynoing that high or something is wrong with his car or track equipment he ran at or something else unknown I'm a little confused here.... So does the one 600 that you know of (that has dynoed over 550 rwhp) ever trap 134 mph or does the 127 mph trap include that car. What did that car trap exactly? Did it ever trap 130 mph? And regarding the two 65 models that have been able to trap 130 mph..... do they dyno 500 rwhp or 550 rwhp or higher
Why not assume that the 55 platform also falls flat on the back half or maybe something "unknown" seems to be going on just like the 600/65..... it just doesn't seem fair to say that for one platform either the car is not making 550 rwhp on DD or should trap higher but accept the fact that something strange or "unknown" is happening that allows them to dyno up to 800 hp but only trap 130 mph.
just remember that 550rwhp is just a peak number, and any dyno figure you hear for that matter is just that, a peak number. To compare two vehicles you have to factor in power and TQ under the curve, then factor in traction along with weight, aerodynamics and gearing.....just too many factors in trying to compare two different platforms.
09-03-2009, 07:27 PM
#54
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
Jay, you bring up valid points. But it seems to me that aside from the past few months, highly modded 55s were trapping (on average) between 122 to 124 mph. Almost everyone used to agree that they run out of breath at high rpms and at high speeds and that the M5/M6 can start to pull on them if they would go head to head in a 1/2 mile or 1 mile race. To me, it seemed that the general conception was that they actually do fall flat (at least a little) in the back half. It wasn't until recently (with Alan's car) that the 55k engine was truly being unleashed.
Last edited by MB_Forever; 09-03-2009 at 07:30 PM.
09-03-2009, 07:43 PM
#55
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Holy smokes this threads crazy
Here's some stuff that I know:
Wheel spin results in slower 60's. That in turn "can" lead to higher trap speeds. So to clear that up. Higher traps speeds based on slower 60ft times is a result of wheel spin off the line.. Now that doest happen all the time. It depends on if you lift off the gas or not. If you lift due to wheel spin your most likly not going to have a higher trap. In fact it could be slower. If you dont lift, and if the spinning wheels find traction. That will result in a higher trap speeds. Then again its not a set fact that this will happen. It will depend on what your transmission and RPMs are doing at the time of slip to grip.
Mods and their HP gains:
All mods will net you different gains pending on when you do them and what other mods you have. For example: Slapping on a throttle body may only net you 10whp. However if you have Long tubes, exhaust, pulley and what not you might get 40whp, if you did a throttle body as a last mod.
If you did long tube headers as the last mod, That opens lots of other doors. What I've seen with my own eyes is upwards and over 50whp! Thats before a retune. Having long tube headers not only frees up flow, but it give the tuner room to add more Ignition to the tune while still being safe.
I'm leaning towards this way of thinking.
All power adding mods will result in different gains based on supporting mods and when you do them.
If you want to see a Throttle body make 40whp do it as a last mod. If you want to see long tube headers make over 50whp do that as a last mod. If you want to see a Renntech airbox make 25whp do that as a last mod.
Now if you want to see Longtube headers make 20whp or a Renntech airbox make 10whp and so on.. Do one of them as a first mod.
If you want to see an E55 make well over 540whp, spend a day in the life of me. Its getting to be a normal sighting for me as of late.
Here's some stuff that I know:
Wheel spin results in slower 60's. That in turn "can" lead to higher trap speeds. So to clear that up. Higher traps speeds based on slower 60ft times is a result of wheel spin off the line.. Now that doest happen all the time. It depends on if you lift off the gas or not. If you lift due to wheel spin your most likly not going to have a higher trap. In fact it could be slower. If you dont lift, and if the spinning wheels find traction. That will result in a higher trap speeds. Then again its not a set fact that this will happen. It will depend on what your transmission and RPMs are doing at the time of slip to grip.
Mods and their HP gains:
All mods will net you different gains pending on when you do them and what other mods you have. For example: Slapping on a throttle body may only net you 10whp. However if you have Long tubes, exhaust, pulley and what not you might get 40whp, if you did a throttle body as a last mod.
If you did long tube headers as the last mod, That opens lots of other doors. What I've seen with my own eyes is upwards and over 50whp! Thats before a retune. Having long tube headers not only frees up flow, but it give the tuner room to add more Ignition to the tune while still being safe.
I'm leaning towards this way of thinking.
All power adding mods will result in different gains based on supporting mods and when you do them.
If you want to see a Throttle body make 40whp do it as a last mod. If you want to see long tube headers make over 50whp do that as a last mod. If you want to see a Renntech airbox make 25whp do that as a last mod.
Now if you want to see Longtube headers make 20whp or a Renntech airbox make 10whp and so on.. Do one of them as a first mod.
If you want to see an E55 make well over 540whp, spend a day in the life of me. Its getting to be a normal sighting for me as of late.
09-03-2009, 07:51 PM
#56
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I don't even know if I still have all my time slips. All my experience has come from the real world and I'll be damned if you are going to question my credibility and experience because you take **** so personally and get so defensive when I don't believe your god damned pointless dyno numbers. You need to prove your credibility to me, not the other way around. You keep wanting to say I attack you and I talk about you but you cannot show ONE PLACE where I talked about you in Dave's thread. You were the one who contacted me and asked for my advice when building your car, but now you question my credibility because you've built a quick E55 and anyone who questions it's all-mightiness must be out of their minds. I don't have the time of patience to keep up this asinine discussion going around and around in circles with you and then be called to prove to you that I have experience. That's a joke and a half.
BTW...hahaha...I really don't think my car is all that mighty and when this fall and Winter comes I'm sure many will dominate my car, do I care...NO! I have my own goals to set with my car and that's all I care about. Whenever I have my car dynode it's for a purpose and not for **** and giggle. You and many others have answered many of my questions along the way and I try to share this same knowledge with others.
No hard feelings on my end and hopefully one day we could put this behind us, if not it is what it is.
09-03-2009, 07:53 PM
#57
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Jay, you bring up valid points. But it seems to me that aside from the past few months, highly modded 55s were trapping (on average) between 122 to 124 mph. Almost everyone used to agree that they run out of breath at high rpms and at high speeds and that the M5/M6 can start to pull on them if they would go head to head in a 1/2 mile or 1 mile race. To me, it seemed that the general conception was that they actually do fall flat (at least a little) in the back half. It wasn't until recently (with Alan's car) that the 55k engine was truly being unleashed.
09-03-2009, 07:59 PM
#58
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i never doubted the e55's abilities, but i was comparing the e55 on the back end to a v12tt not to a m5/6. On my platform we lose steam up top alot faster then an E55, but our TQ puts us out of the hole faster so we have better Et's and 60ft times. I bet an E55 with similar hp as my car from a 50mph roll will slowly walk by me at 135....
09-03-2009, 08:02 PM
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09-03-2009, 08:13 PM
#61
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Hey Mo, I am not part of this discussion in detail so I cannot comment on this specifically. I am not one to really care what a dyno says, I use it as a before and after tool to measure my gains and or losses with my modifications. I am more apt to look at my trap speeds to gauge the performance of my car, just my .02
. Most other members told me to back it up, and I felt I did. In the end I totally agree with you about trap speeds guaging the performance of any car 
. Thank you for your input towards the latter part of the thread. I concentrated way too much on Marcus's rebuttals.
Because I am not one really for assumption, coupled with the fact that the E55 doesnt not fall on its face. Look at the average balk half for the modded E55 vs the modded V12tt and you will clearly see the discrepancy.
Last edited by bassn_07; 09-03-2009 at 08:16 PM.
09-03-2009, 08:22 PM
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09-03-2009, 08:32 PM
#63
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09-03-2009, 08:32 PM
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2008 A8L, 2002 996TT X50, 2009 X5
09-03-2009, 08:44 PM
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09-03-2009, 08:53 PM
#66
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09-03-2009, 09:00 PM
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09-03-2009, 09:12 PM
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09-03-2009, 10:57 PM
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Mikey's wtq numbers are insane. My eyes dont lie. The good news for us AZ guys is its going to cool off soon. Then it will be our turn to to hit the strip. Look for Mikey to get booted from the track.
09-03-2009, 11:04 PM
#70
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We should find out in 2 weeks.
09-03-2009, 11:27 PM
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LS430
I believe DynoComp had a thread about an E55 with Renntech mods on 100 octaine that did 578.5rwhp on a Dynodynamics and torque seemed to be 660rwtq or so. This is the car I believe Chiromikey is talking about, It's mods are:Renntech custom dyno tuned 100 oct ECU map
Renntech Airbox
Renntech 180mm pulley
Renntech cooling mods
MBH/Dyno-comp long tube headers
MBH/Dyno-comp test pipes
Renntech speedshift
Mistershaft mufflers
Last edited by E55AMGFan; 09-03-2009 at 11:34 PM.
09-03-2009, 11:42 PM
#72
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If you do get that Gallardo, is it heading to a little shop in Charlotte, NC? I believe DynoComp had a thread about an E55 with Renntech mods on 100 octaine that did 578.5rwhp on a Dynodynamics and torque seemed to be 660rwtq or so. This is the car I believe Chiromikey is talking about, It's mods are:
Renntech custom dyno tuned 100 oct ECU map
Renntech Airbox
Renntech 180mm pulley
Renntech cooling mods
MBH/Dyno-comp long tube headers
MBH/Dyno-comp test pipes
Renntech speedshift
Mistershaft mufflers
I believe DynoComp had a thread about an E55 with Renntech mods on 100 octaine that did 578.5rwhp on a Dynodynamics and torque seemed to be 660rwtq or so. This is the car I believe Chiromikey is talking about, It's mods are:Renntech custom dyno tuned 100 oct ECU map
Renntech Airbox
Renntech 180mm pulley
Renntech cooling mods
MBH/Dyno-comp long tube headers
MBH/Dyno-comp test pipes
Renntech speedshift
Mistershaft mufflers
.
09-03-2009, 11:49 PM
#74
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I believe I read that he has the 82mm but not a 100% positive. If he didn't I'm sure he would have a major bottle neck in that area.
Last edited by bassn_07; 09-03-2009 at 11:54 PM.
09-04-2009, 12:01 AM
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LS430
The list of mods is the exact list Hooleyboy listed when he made the thread. Car was on 100 octane which I stated but still amazing numbers as 93 wouldn't of made it lose that much.
