A Very Interesting Post By Andy@MHP....
12-16-2009, 04:26 PM
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
A Very Interesting Post By Andy@MHP....
I read this very interesting post by Andy@MHP and figured to share it with you guys. It was posted on the ad site:
I hope tuners get past this....
To everyone waiting in anticipation of this powerplant allow me to be the first to say, good luck attempting to tune one.
Everyone and I mean everyone is switching over to the new 104 byte RSA encrypted Siemens controllers, first used in 2010 Audi S4, DI 2010 Porsches, BMW and MB will make the switchover in (surprise) the next 2 years. By 2014 I don't see anyone not using it or something comparable.
These boxes are so far uncrackable even for my guys. Even if we can tune one, it doesn't automatically mean we can tune every platform using the same controller.
Rest assured that whatever version of said controller being used with this motor (if in fact it is released in 2011 if at all) will NOT be tuneable for years if ever. OEMs are stepping their game up bigtime in this dept. On a related note who knows how long it will take the liberals to make any software/hardware modification to a vehicle illegal due to bull**** emissions/fuel economy reasons. Unfortunately the morons that were elected are too blind to see that any modification that makes more power at WOT will also make for more efficient part throttle operation. As an engine is essentially a large air pump, eliminating resctriction and operating efficiently go hand in hand with making optimal power/torque. Thank God for the rest of the world...Anyway I digress...
The irony in all of this is that it's obvious manufacturers don't want us tinkering with their babies, but in doing so they're going to open the door to a plethora of piggybacks that disrupt information coming into the ECU (aka NOT real tuning) which is far more dangerous and detrimental longterm than a trained tuner actually remapping the ECU.
So even though we may be gaining TTs (and the M156/63 AMG motor was designed from the start with TTs in mind, however plans to TT were scrapped due to emissions reasons), modability is going to be an "issue".
Now as far as the issue of 63s vs 55Ks. Each motor/platform deserves credit for what it is in it's own right. The M156 is possibly the world's greatest production N/A V8 engine to date, and the fact that so many 55Ks are still around and setting records is testimony enough of a long and successful run.
With that being said the limiting factor of all 55Ks are their 2.3L IHI twin screws. Such is the case with any FI engine the blower/tubo(s) are the limiting factor in potential power production. With a N/A platform it's the cylinder heads; the intake manifold, cam(s), exhaust, etc simply determine how much of that potential is reached and at what engine speed.
What we know is that AMG gave us enough cylinder head to make as much HP as the 2.3L IHI is capable of putting out. Obviously torque is a differnt story, however as we all know lack of tq can be compensated for with gearing and the 7Gs more closely spaced ratios (vs WA5s) serves the N/A motor better than it would the PD blown one.
The reasons we haven't seen a 550rwhp N/A M156 yet are plentiful. It's a new, relatively low build engine, with a build run that commenced at the beginning of our still ongoing economic depression.
The main reason being: Making power/tq with FI is easy, making power out of thin air is NOT, and the market is used to making easy power with pulleys/software/TBs, not working for it like is necessary when N/A.
Making power N/A is also NOT cheap, cams cost more than TBs, race porting a cylinder head is not as cost effective as slapping on a pulley. That's why 1.5L NHRA prostock bike motors are $50k a pop. 233HP/L N/A, spinning to 13,500rpm. So no arguments there, it's definitely more cost effective to modify a factory FI motor.
As for our billet cam cost, take into account buying only 5-10 sets of blanks at a time, the fact that we need TWO different cam blanks (intake/exhaust lobe spacing is different requiring this) not just one, that we're talking 4 cams vs 2 for 55 AMGs, 32 lobes that require grinding vs 24. As for quality these are top of the line billet 9310 rifle drilled steel racing camshafts, I cannot make them any nicer/better.
Headers/Exhaust/Cams/Porting are the key to making REAL power with the M156, and of course the best nitrous motors tend to be stout N/A engines to begin with.
Of late I've seen and heard about two different manufacturers making larger TBs for the M156, and I'm left scratching my head... The stock dual 74mm TBs will flow over 1400cfm, on it's best day a stock longblock N/A M156 will ingest MAYBE 700cfm at redline. This will be proven the first time an objective customer dyno is performed before/after the $4k plus mod.
It also tells me others in the market are still thinking with a FI mindset, or they really have zero interest in making serious power with this motor. 63 critics, it's not the motor that's to blame, it's the lack of aftermarket experience with N/A 4Vs that is currently making mountains out of mole hills.
We'll see what we get with H/C in a few weeks, then we'll start talking more about stroking N/A motors--which vs FI motors, is actually beneficial if the extra inches are accounted for in the top end as well.
Everyone and I mean everyone is switching over to the new 104 byte RSA encrypted Siemens controllers, first used in 2010 Audi S4, DI 2010 Porsches, BMW and MB will make the switchover in (surprise) the next 2 years. By 2014 I don't see anyone not using it or something comparable.
These boxes are so far uncrackable even for my guys. Even if we can tune one, it doesn't automatically mean we can tune every platform using the same controller.
Rest assured that whatever version of said controller being used with this motor (if in fact it is released in 2011 if at all) will NOT be tuneable for years if ever. OEMs are stepping their game up bigtime in this dept. On a related note who knows how long it will take the liberals to make any software/hardware modification to a vehicle illegal due to bull**** emissions/fuel economy reasons. Unfortunately the morons that were elected are too blind to see that any modification that makes more power at WOT will also make for more efficient part throttle operation. As an engine is essentially a large air pump, eliminating resctriction and operating efficiently go hand in hand with making optimal power/torque. Thank God for the rest of the world...Anyway I digress...
The irony in all of this is that it's obvious manufacturers don't want us tinkering with their babies, but in doing so they're going to open the door to a plethora of piggybacks that disrupt information coming into the ECU (aka NOT real tuning) which is far more dangerous and detrimental longterm than a trained tuner actually remapping the ECU.
So even though we may be gaining TTs (and the M156/63 AMG motor was designed from the start with TTs in mind, however plans to TT were scrapped due to emissions reasons), modability is going to be an "issue".
Now as far as the issue of 63s vs 55Ks. Each motor/platform deserves credit for what it is in it's own right. The M156 is possibly the world's greatest production N/A V8 engine to date, and the fact that so many 55Ks are still around and setting records is testimony enough of a long and successful run.
With that being said the limiting factor of all 55Ks are their 2.3L IHI twin screws. Such is the case with any FI engine the blower/tubo(s) are the limiting factor in potential power production. With a N/A platform it's the cylinder heads; the intake manifold, cam(s), exhaust, etc simply determine how much of that potential is reached and at what engine speed.
What we know is that AMG gave us enough cylinder head to make as much HP as the 2.3L IHI is capable of putting out. Obviously torque is a differnt story, however as we all know lack of tq can be compensated for with gearing and the 7Gs more closely spaced ratios (vs WA5s) serves the N/A motor better than it would the PD blown one.
The reasons we haven't seen a 550rwhp N/A M156 yet are plentiful. It's a new, relatively low build engine, with a build run that commenced at the beginning of our still ongoing economic depression.
The main reason being: Making power/tq with FI is easy, making power out of thin air is NOT, and the market is used to making easy power with pulleys/software/TBs, not working for it like is necessary when N/A.
Making power N/A is also NOT cheap, cams cost more than TBs, race porting a cylinder head is not as cost effective as slapping on a pulley. That's why 1.5L NHRA prostock bike motors are $50k a pop. 233HP/L N/A, spinning to 13,500rpm. So no arguments there, it's definitely more cost effective to modify a factory FI motor.
As for our billet cam cost, take into account buying only 5-10 sets of blanks at a time, the fact that we need TWO different cam blanks (intake/exhaust lobe spacing is different requiring this) not just one, that we're talking 4 cams vs 2 for 55 AMGs, 32 lobes that require grinding vs 24. As for quality these are top of the line billet 9310 rifle drilled steel racing camshafts, I cannot make them any nicer/better.
Headers/Exhaust/Cams/Porting are the key to making REAL power with the M156, and of course the best nitrous motors tend to be stout N/A engines to begin with.
Of late I've seen and heard about two different manufacturers making larger TBs for the M156, and I'm left scratching my head... The stock dual 74mm TBs will flow over 1400cfm, on it's best day a stock longblock N/A M156 will ingest MAYBE 700cfm at redline. This will be proven the first time an objective customer dyno is performed before/after the $4k plus mod.
It also tells me others in the market are still thinking with a FI mindset, or they really have zero interest in making serious power with this motor. 63 critics, it's not the motor that's to blame, it's the lack of aftermarket experience with N/A 4Vs that is currently making mountains out of mole hills.
We'll see what we get with H/C in a few weeks, then we'll start talking more about stroking N/A motors--which vs FI motors, is actually beneficial if the extra inches are accounted for in the top end as well.
12-16-2009, 05:17 PM
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I know that MTM has already claimed pretty nice gains for the 2010 S4 via tuning. Don't know if it's direct ECU tuning or piggyback... but I *think* it's the former.
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12-16-2009, 06:11 PM
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Buddy of mine is the ultimate computer nerd. Friggin genius and he said it best.
The guys that spend all day creating this stuff, go home and put on alter egos and crack it or leak the way to crack it.
Oh yeah, we'll crack it.
The guys that spend all day creating this stuff, go home and put on alter egos and crack it or leak the way to crack it.
Oh yeah, we'll crack it.
12-16-2009, 06:43 PM
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I think this might be a good thing. The so called "tuning" that is done now on our platform is laughable, at best. This could be beneficial because it may move tuners/cars to completely reprogrammable ECUs ala EFILive and AEM EMSs. Those are really the ultimate goal for tuning, as what we do to our factory ECUs on the Benz platform is a complete and utter joke.
-m
-m
12-16-2009, 07:17 PM
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did i mention they can also tune the direct injection porsche too.
...yes this is the new supercharged V6 from the 2010 S4 ...and the trans too
12-16-2009, 07:41 PM
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E63 P30, CL500 Sport
There is also another side to this..... assuming this new encryption gets hacked, will it now be easier for the dealership to identify the hack given that the encrypted key will likely be tampered with 
These cars are getting more sophisticated and so more expensive, which may mean good bye warranty 
These cars are getting more sophisticated and so more expensive, which may mean good bye warranty
12-16-2009, 07:51 PM
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Good read.
However, I don't think much else will come out for the M156 because:
1) Not many tuners willing to pay the R&D costs to create cams, heads, throttle-bodies, etc. especially when car enthusiasts are not willing to pay big bucks for these low volume products.
2) Not many owners are willing to pay the large amount of money for these mods (see #1). Plus the gain in horsepower will be low compared to the high price of the mod.
3) The TT-V8 is coming out which hopefully will have the same amount, if not more, aftermarket support as the V8 Kompressor.
I'm happy with my stock 6.2 but I'm really excited about the 5.5TT but I'll probably not mod that either (fear of having warranty voided).
However, I don't think much else will come out for the M156 because:
1) Not many tuners willing to pay the R&D costs to create cams, heads, throttle-bodies, etc. especially when car enthusiasts are not willing to pay big bucks for these low volume products.
2) Not many owners are willing to pay the large amount of money for these mods (see #1). Plus the gain in horsepower will be low compared to the high price of the mod.
3) The TT-V8 is coming out which hopefully will have the same amount, if not more, aftermarket support as the V8 Kompressor.
I'm happy with my stock 6.2 but I'm really excited about the 5.5TT but I'll probably not mod that either (fear of having warranty voided).
12-16-2009, 08:09 PM
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That's called "job security"!! Hell yeah, somebody will crack the code.
12-16-2009, 08:46 PM
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I see Andy can stil spew the BS.. Everything can be cracked!
The Car makers laugh all the way to the bank , as we all turn their euro sedans into American muscle killing machines!
The Car makers laugh all the way to the bank , as we all turn their euro sedans into American muscle killing machines!
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E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
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instagram @ultimate_pd
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12-17-2009, 12:20 AM
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I just saw this on the other site. Looks like a few more responses from Andy.....
=================== BEGIN QUOTE ==================
To answer a few questions about the new ECUs from another forum:
1) http://www.mtm-online.de/en/Audi/S4-...?FZID=S4B8245Q MTM didn't crack anything regarding the S4.
[img]http://www.mtm-online.de/media/mtm/M...ma-m-mct-z.jpg[/img]
Interupting the CAN line signals is NOT tuning it's a piggyback ie juicebox. I also do not see anything on APRs website stating they have cracked the 2010 S4 Siemens 104 RSA ECU:
http://www.hoppenmotorsport.com/Audi.S4.B8.Engine.htm
Also yes we can do certain 2010 DI Porsche's already, ie Cayman, however NO ONE can do a Panamera or the new TT/GT2, these are the first Porsche models to use the new ECUs.
To whoever posted:
You might want to be running a tad bit quicker than a stock C6 Z06, ZR1, Viper, before posting that...Just a thought, just a thought
Otherwise, you will learn like everyone else, the next gen of ECUs are no joke.
=================== END QUOTE ==================
=================== BEGIN QUOTE ==================
To answer a few questions about the new ECUs from another forum:
1) http://www.mtm-online.de/en/Audi/S4-...?FZID=S4B8245Q MTM didn't crack anything regarding the S4.
[img]http://www.mtm-online.de/media/mtm/M...ma-m-mct-z.jpg[/img]
Interupting the CAN line signals is NOT tuning it's a piggyback ie juicebox. I also do not see anything on APRs website stating they have cracked the 2010 S4 Siemens 104 RSA ECU:
http://www.hoppenmotorsport.com/Audi.S4.B8.Engine.htm
What is Cantronic?
MTM Cantronic is the name of a new product family which allows a wide range of vehicle optimizations and modifications. What all these modules have in common is a connection with the vehicle´s so called CANbus.
The CANbus (Controller Area Network) is a serial bus framework developed for the networking of control units. Modern vehicles have up to 50 such units of which the ECU (engine control unit) is the largest. Others are used for the transmission or the control of parts like inside-adjustable outside mirrors, air bags, cruise control and audio system. The communication among these control and sensor units is essential to get response from sensors and ensure the coordination of all parts. With a lot less effort of wiring than before it enables information exchange between systems and is being used by our Cantronic to get access to necessary information.
What is the Cantronic capable of?
The MTM Cantronic can be adapted to different fields of application. When having access to the relevant data the Cantronic can precisely modify the vehicle´s series production status to guarantee an optimized setup in every situation. By now the Cantronic is offered as M-Cantronic for the modification of engine electronics and as F-Cantronic for the optimization of the vehicle´s chassis. Further applications are currently being developed for example the suspension of the electronically limited top speed or the flue glas damper control.
Advantages of all Cantronic modules are further:
MTM Cantronic is the name of a new product family which allows a wide range of vehicle optimizations and modifications. What all these modules have in common is a connection with the vehicle´s so called CANbus.The CANbus (Controller Area Network) is a serial bus framework developed for the networking of control units. Modern vehicles have up to 50 such units of which the ECU (engine control unit) is the largest. Others are used for the transmission or the control of parts like inside-adjustable outside mirrors, air bags, cruise control and audio system. The communication among these control and sensor units is essential to get response from sensors and ensure the coordination of all parts. With a lot less effort of wiring than before it enables information exchange between systems and is being used by our Cantronic to get access to necessary information.
What is the Cantronic capable of?
The MTM Cantronic can be adapted to different fields of application. When having access to the relevant data the Cantronic can precisely modify the vehicle´s series production status to guarantee an optimized setup in every situation. By now the Cantronic is offered as M-Cantronic for the modification of engine electronics and as F-Cantronic for the optimization of the vehicle´s chassis. Further applications are currently being developed for example the suspension of the electronically limited top speed or the flue glas damper control.
Advantages of all Cantronic modules are further:
- Can easily and quickly be mounted/dismounted by the customer himself or by a car workshop of his choice
- Can be removed without remnants
- Includes TÜV certificate and EMC test (electromagnetic compatibility)
- Can be taken along when car model is being changed and therefore saves money (see „What happens when I change my car?“)
- Can without problems be used with particle filters
- [COLOR=#ffffff]Less consumption at same manner of driving
To whoever posted:
You might want to be running a tad bit quicker than a stock C6 Z06, ZR1, Viper, before posting that...Just a thought, just a thought
Otherwise, you will learn like everyone else, the next gen of ECUs are no joke.=================== END QUOTE ==================
12-17-2009, 12:23 AM
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A few more replies from MHP.....
Found a few more replies.....
More on current S4 offerings:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/28/r...is-underrated/
So the car makes 400hp/tq from the factory and tuners are publicly posting about a 32-35hp (ABT, MTM) gain from "tuning" and a pulley or exhaust?
Just confirmed with friends overseas, APR hasn't tuned a 2010 S4 either. Piggybacks are NOT synonymous with tuning.
Thanks
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/28/r...is-underrated/
So the car makes 400hp/tq from the factory and tuners are publicly posting about a 32-35hp (ABT, MTM) gain from "tuning" and a pulley or exhaust?
Just confirmed with friends overseas, APR hasn't tuned a 2010 S4 either. Piggybacks are NOT synonymous with tuning.
Thanks
Last edited by MB_Forever; 12-17-2009 at 01:00 PM.
12-17-2009, 10:58 AM
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Lets just leave it at - I have some friends that work @ APR
Wanna believe Andy's BS - I am not holding anyone back. Also I know of another tuner that has the new coding done for some 2010 Audis with new ecu box codes already.
Oo and my last car was sponsored by APR and had one of the first production big turbo APR Stage 3 kits for a direct injection car.
12-17-2009, 12:10 PM
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Not sure why you are referring to "overseas". APR is located here in the U.S - Auburn, Alabama.
Lets just leave it at - I have some friends that work @ APR
Wanna believe Andy's BS - I am not holding anyone back. Also I know of another tuner that has the new coding done for some 2010 Audis with new ecu box codes already.
Oo and my last car was sponsored by APR and had one of the first production big turbo APR Stage 3 kits for a direct injection car.
Lets just leave it at - I have some friends that work @ APR
Wanna believe Andy's BS - I am not holding anyone back. Also I know of another tuner that has the new coding done for some 2010 Audis with new ecu box codes already.
Oo and my last car was sponsored by APR and had one of the first production big turbo APR Stage 3 kits for a direct injection car.
12-17-2009, 12:17 PM
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Andy's post had some truth to it, which was over dramatized. I did text my friend about this and he did confirm that it's almost impossible to crack, but it was done and the power packages will be rolling out very soon. Cheers
12-17-2009, 12:46 PM
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12-17-2009, 12:56 PM
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2.0T FSI Tune is 600$, and during sales that gets you stock, 91,93,100 octane and fault code erase options. you switch prgorams thru crusie control when the car is off.
12-17-2009, 01:25 PM
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Why do people pay any mind to this Andy cheat? NOTHING has thus far been "uncrackable", yet another post from a subpar wannabe tuner. Ah well...go figure.
12-17-2009, 01:34 PM
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^^^I stand corrected on MTM, pretty clearly looks to be a piggyback solution for the '10 S4.
As mentioned by others, I'm sure tuners will eventually "crack" the code work to apply their own parameters to these new MB engines' ECUs. Might not be available the day they hit the street - but I doubt it'll take too terribly long; the demand will still be there, that's for sure.
Question, while we're on the topic (somewhat) - are piggyback systems a la Juicebox considered a "sub-par" tuning solution? It seems to me, that for someone looking for reliable, easily reversible tuning solution, it might be an elegant approach to pursue - even if it is technically a "Bandaid" and not a comprehensive tune. Those looking for absolute max performance might look elsewhere (maybe even a standalone system, if it can be successfully configured).
As mentioned by others, I'm sure tuners will eventually "crack" the code work to apply their own parameters to these new MB engines' ECUs. Might not be available the day they hit the street - but I doubt it'll take too terribly long; the demand will still be there, that's for sure.
Question, while we're on the topic (somewhat) - are piggyback systems a la Juicebox considered a "sub-par" tuning solution? It seems to me, that for someone looking for reliable, easily reversible tuning solution, it might be an elegant approach to pursue - even if it is technically a "Bandaid" and not a comprehensive tune. Those looking for absolute max performance might look elsewhere (maybe even a standalone system, if it can be successfully configured).
