jangy

I've never been a believer in cams on these cars. You simply do NOT have the room in the head. The ONLY way to put beefy cams in there is to replace the head or at least modify it.

I am not doubting anything, but can someone list the 55k cars that have aftermarket cams and shown increases? All I have seen is driveability issues. If you like a rough idle, then do it.

Last thing, MAKE SURE you have someone to tune it that you trust. To me, the tune is key on these cars.

I still disagree with CM30s. Always have. I love my Davies pump.

sneakyneon

Ok So I’ve had like 10 ways to try and explain this but every time I read it back it makes no sense,lol. SO.. Basically let’s start with Some A&P of what valve float is. The spring is connected to the valve via the retainer and keeper, the cam push the valve down and the spring closes it. Float is when the tension of the spring is not high enough to close the valve at a given rpm. So basically the spring has not had enough time to close the valve before the cam is starting to re open it. Now were the retainers come into this, the titanium retains weigh less than the stock steel ones so this reduces the weight on the spring allowing it to "spring" back faster to close the valve. Just so you know "float" is MONDO BAD. When the valve is open at the wrong time your piston will hit the valve, this will knock the keeper of the tip and then the valve will fall into the engine, this will all happen in a split seconded and more than likely kill at a minimum of 75% of your engine.

bassn_07

Thanks Jangy for your input. I believe the cams will make power but the question is how much. There is really no support of cams making power on the dyno but when I look back at a few of the fastest 55's they all had them. I'm not sure or don't car what kind of dyno numbers I get out of it because I do my testing at the track. Track proven results are what I'm looking for and like always I'll post a full write up.

How many 55's have you seen with VRP cams? There just doesn't seem to be a lot out there right now which is understandable. Is rough idle the only one that concerns you? Any input would be aprreciated.

Do you still have your Davies pump? I always felt the CM30's did their job well on my car but the only thing I have to compare it with is a Meziere. The CM30's worked much better on my system than the Meziere.

Thanks Nick. I've just been going over my budget for this round of modding and the install / product is pushing me over. I know the retainers cost around $350 but the install will be another 2-3 hours.

People talk about valve float and that's what scares me. The question I've been asked is - have any cars on our platforms ever seen valve float, would MB really only use retainers good up to 200-300 RPM past the factory redline? If I did the work like yourself doing this would be a no brainer.

Luke_M

Yeah, I would think that the stock springs would be able to handle a bit more aggressive profile without valve float. But what do I know. Most cars can take more rpms and to a lesser extent a cam. I know from my BMW vendor days that higher mileage cars were advised to get new springs at least with a new cam, sometimes aftermarket springs were needed.

More aggressive spings would be the bomb if stock ones couldn't handle it. What did the other cam guys do? There is your answer right there.

Oh, Alan. My headers should be done soon (maybe a month) and my ZT-2 and dashdaq will be here shortly. I'm gonna just use the OBD-II port for now and get used to the dashdaq and then when I put everything on I'll put in the wide band, IAT and Boost sensor. I'm gonna put the IAT and boost sensor into the intake after the IC on the drivers side, next to the TB. Seems like a good place and Rob agreed. Thanks for all your help man! I think I'll be ready to go around July. Just in time for high temps lol

Good luck with the cams. I'm still holding off on a 185 until it proves itself.

We horsepower junkies, especially the future ones, owe Alan a big thank you for all he's done. There are a few others out there put I wanted to give Alan props in his thread. Thanks again man!

bassn_07

Yeah, I'm thinking that it's worth the money but with my mod budget near it's cap I need really evaluate what's a must and a luxury item. I'm sure the retainers will help but I really don't plan on revving my motor past 6700 which some think that's nearing the float RPM range.

I've spoken with a few guys that have cams, not necessarily Pat's but still the same concept. Some say it's a must (of course the ones that have it) and other believe it's not needed. If install was a little less work I wouldn't even be having this conversation but with the extra hours of install it all really starts to add up.

I'll probably end up doing it.

Refresh my memory, did you end up getting Floored Fab headers?

I spoke with Rob and he mentioned that you ordered a few things, he's a great guy. Get to know your setup because it will do a ton of things for ya, heck, I'm still learning....(Really, it could do that!!!!....). Will you be adding the EGT sensor as well?

Stay tuned because I'll have that solution for your cooling needs...lol.

You'll soon know!

Thanks Luke for the kind words! I'm just returning the favor that many have given me here on MBW. Give me a call sometime and I'll go over my new soon to be mod. I really think you'll enjoy it .

Luke_M

Yeah I got Floored Fab headers. He told me 8 weeks and that's fine as I'm not in a hurry. I think I'm gonna install everything at once while it's apart. Just go from stock to full bore (Headers/180/HE/and possiby the TB) in one weekend. Should be eye opening

No EGT port. I can't remember why exactly lol I believe Rob or Chris didn't think it was so important so I passed. I believe it was Chris actually. As time goes on I'm sure I'll more including the warning light. I just want to get used to the first setup for now.

Have you thought about a light port job on the heads while you had them off? I know it's more $$ but maybe save up a bit longer and then pull the trigger.

Oh, I'll be hounding you about the cooling and 185 lol When you told me you spun 3rd gear I didn't forget that lol I got a big $#!T eating grin when I heard that, believe me! I've got a GSX-R1000 I "have" to roll with ha ha

azncantonw211

I meet Pat at the mini-tune event we had in west palm beach. His CLK is fast and the cams deff made power! Sounds amazing too

bassn_07

When doing the cam install the heads will be still be on. I have no plans on removing my heads unless something unforeseen happens. If that time ever happens I'll explore that option but for now I'm good.

I thinks it's a good idea to watch EGT's. It will give you a good indication of what's happening with your motor. We know the melting point for aluminum is around 1600 degrees and it's just a nice added piece of mind. I believe I got mine with my package but not a 100% sure.

Yeah, breaking the tires loose at high speeds on cool nights is a common problem with our modded cars. I would almost be willing to give a tiny bit of torque up for some better traction. Hopefully the cams will get me there.

bassn_07

Awesome! How did the day go?

kustom2k1

If your getting the same cams that Pat has in his CLK your going to be blown away. He took me on a hell ride today. Every gear pulled with no drop off. Shifted into second and the car went sideways as we got above 60 you could feel the tires were fighting for traction. On my to do list for sure.

The day went great, everyones car stayed together and made tons of power. My SL55 laid down 431.9HP and 474.4TQ completely stock, and with an off the shelf 93 octane tune she made 461.3hp and 509.0TQ. We didnt get into tuning my car due to my upcoming install of pulley and larger heat exchanger. New dyno pulls coming Monday after install. Best of luck to you bassn. (pulls on mustang dyno)

I wont speak for Beau but i will say this much..
I was witness to something not of this world, that car is possessed!! The four horseman of the apocalypse have just found their new ride.

bassn_07

Awesome to hear!!!! I love the fact that you guys had such a great turnout and given the opportunity to hang out and talk cars..... Here in the Bay Area it seems almost impossible to get a gathering together when mods are involved.

It seems like you stock SL55 performed like a champ!!!! 460 rwhp is insane for a tune only 55 . Your beast is almost as powerful as my dyno last dyno numbers..... My last numbers with 91 was 505 with close to 600 rwtq. Get that thing to the track and see what she does.

Yes, the same exact cam you felt will be the one going in my car. I'll need all the help I could get to keep up with the insane hp coming out of Florida. Aaron's car will definitely be a feared force on our platform.

kustom2k1

bassn, yea my jaw dropped when the numbers flashed on the screen. Like i said we didn't even get into tuning the program she was running fat on the top end and could have either bumped up the timing or leaned her out. Looking forward to the install and really getting her dialed in.

The guys at Japtrix are class A people and def. car nuts. I felt welcomed from the minute i walked in and Roger the proprietor is a hands down 110% willing to bend over backwards for his customers.



Beau, i don't know where to start.. he spent hours on the phone trying to get my install completed today but alas there were no belts to be found for my upgrade..but it was a blessing in a way as i was going to do the 180 pulley but decided the 168 would do the trick without worrying about additional cooling besides the heat exchanger...

One word to describe all the guys involved....Class!

P.S. feel free to move down to SF we would love to have ya!!

jangy

Here is my take, bassn_07...

Sure, cams will make more power. I don't doubt that. My concern is that the head on these cars will not accept the size of lobes that would show power. If you are going to take the head apart and rebuild it, why not port it to give you the room to put in real cams?
By not doing that, I just don't think you will see much difference in power but will see a rougher motor.
Anyone who has an open head should be able to demonstrate this for you. I never knew PTE was ready to release this stuff but ask him and that crew. they are straight up guys.

LOL, the fastest cars I have seen were with full exhaust and custom tune with a 175mm (internal) 180 marketing banter.

I know of many VRP cammed cars, but know of only 1 that i liked and it was Sal's

jangy

Oh yeah, the cooling. I honestly feel that the CM30 setup is adequate for a stage 3 car. The theory long has been that the slower flow-rate keeps the hot fluid from mixing with the cool fluid before you make your run, which is why rear tanks also seemed to help.
My take is totally different. I like to mix at high rates and have the system be able to cool it back out. The heart of our problems are the spikes, NOT the recovery patterns. The CM30 simply does nothing to the spike, especially once you start pushing major boost. I like the davies pump because it will shoot water accross the street. It has a larger outlet because it needs it.
My focal points were maximize volume, ability to transfer heat, and flow. In my mind, this gave me the best bet at keeping the IC coolest.

Yes I still have the pump and add on HE, if you wanna experiment.

bassn_07

You know me brotha! I'm all about experimenting and I have my car well documented to see the gains. Let me know what you wanna do and I'm gamed.

jangy

They are light. I can ship them to you. I been trying to sell them but no taker yet. If someone wants them later just send it to them. If not, send it back and give feedback. I really liked the pump. The HE is just an add-on for the front of your OEM one but it has the larger hole fabbed in to take the pump outlet. You can fab the pump onto your system or use teh HE, too. Other than that, just standard tubes to set it up.

jangy

Glad to see you still enjoy Jeremy. I guess it isn't PC anymore? Or is he just not with them?

bassn_07

Jeremy will be the only one to touch my car and if and when he stops I'll also be done. I'm not sure what his plans are but we should all hope he continues blessing our MB's.

gandalfthegray

Sorry for my noob questions, but what is the 'HE'?

sneakyneon

Jangy, you seem to have a firm grasp of how the cam works, could you explain how removing the head and porting it gives you more room? I was under the impression that valve to piston clearance was not affected by porting the head? You would think that the cam's lift push's the valve down and the cams duration determines the time the valve is open, So I’m my mind the only way to increase clearance would to be to move the head further away from the block by a thicker gasket, but won't this effect quench? So I would think the only real solution would be a disassembly and to fly cut the valve relief deeper in the piston. I'm pretty sure I have this stuff all wrong so if you could clear it up that would fantastic!! Thanks.

jangy

sorry, Heat Exchanger (fancy name for a radiator)

jangy

I hear you. Trust and communication are key.

jangy

Back when all of the talk of Shrick, SLR, VRP, etc. cams came out I had a good chance to see them being installed into numerous 55k motors. While I agree with you that porting does NOT help in valve to piston clearance, my concern is in the lobe itself hitting the head as it turns. Because of that, you can only go so agressive with the cams. In the end, the only solutions I saw were to try and find or fab cams that didn't "rub". The key wasn't really to design proper overlap, spring rate, or valve clearance so the performance gains are minimal, at best, and more importantly not optimized. You can basically fatten the lobes a hair. Is that really worth it? Personally, I'd rebuild the head with proper parts and bet that I'd gain way more.

The IC is the big concern up top. If you aren't controlling air temp, what does it matter if you control flow?

Last thing, all this talk of working on the head is cool but don't forget the best gains are in the bottom. Forged pistons, lighter crank, etc. do nothing but add to the car. No driveability issues and a more seamless power transfer

stevebez

The Kleemann have visibily different lobes to OEM. Lobes have straighter ramps and fatter. Whatever that does I dunno - I dont think overall lift is much higher if at all. I measured them up with a micrometer but I dunno what I did with the data. I am sure its on the forum somewhere on the big cam comparison thread.

Kleemann say 10-20 hp depending on the base setup you have ... the more you are flowing the more the cams help....

Its true you cannot go agressive here and the PTE solution has it maxed out... flowing the heads is also worth a fair bit of power according to Kleemann.

For me Kleemann cams and ported heads are about the most you can do ... not taking away from the PTE arrangement but it does seem they need custom tuning to get the best out of them.

I am waiting on some Cam dyno charts from Kleemann and Ill post it up.

Ah also - they said the cams add power throughout the curve - at no point is power lower. Again a few mods have made me as happy as the cams - I would say almost on par with the pulley upgrade...

jangy

Thanks for the clarification stevebez! That gets at what I have been trying to get accross. If you have decided to rebuild the head, do it right. Swapping out a part here and there (even just cams) won't do the labor justice. I also think that bassn_07 will really feel the differences at this stage because he has about as much air flowing as anyone (which is another area that needs improvement (intake manifolds)...


Haha!! This is getting off topic, so I will stop.

I will say this. Seeing some of the old school guys bring out their vast knowledge is so awesome to see. PTE has been around as has stevebez and you'd be amazed at how involved some of the old school guys were to the development of the "stages" we all enjoy today. I'll start to add Jeremy in there, since it looks like he is as close to a consistent CUSTOM tuner as we have.

Enjoy ALAN!! PM me your address and I'll send the pump. Just do a write up before I turn it into a sprayer for my Jeep