Fuel trim and voltage numbers???
04-30-2010, 12:39 AM
#1
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Fuel trim and voltage numbers???
I believe my sensor 1 bank 2 (driver side) O2 sensor has failed and will soon be replaced. Out of curiosity I logged short and long term fuel trim along with my sensor 1 bank 2 O2 voltage. Here are the numbers -
STFT bank 1 = (-5)-(+2)
STFT bank 2 = (+25)
LTFT bank 1 = 0
LTFT bank 2 = (25)
OBD Voltage sensor 1 bank 1 = between .04-.8 cycling couple times per second
OBD Voltage sensor 1 bank 2 = stuck at .6, this number will vary with start up and does not cycle.
I also have multiple cylinder misfires on bank 2, they are cylinders 5,6, and 7.
The easiest thing to do is replace the O2 under warranty and go from there. It really does seem like the O2 on bank 2 has finally gone. I also got a P0155 = Oxygen O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank2, Sensor1). I had this before and it would come and go. I'm not sure if this something that progresses until it finally fails but I'll soon have some answers. Please feel free to chime in and give your thoughts.
There's no doubt my tech will figure it out but I just thought I would post up for future reference. It may help others when I finally post the end result.
Who ever said modding wasnt' fun....
.
STFT bank 1 = (-5)-(+2)
STFT bank 2 = (+25)
LTFT bank 1 = 0
LTFT bank 2 = (25)
OBD Voltage sensor 1 bank 1 = between .04-.8 cycling couple times per second
OBD Voltage sensor 1 bank 2 = stuck at .6, this number will vary with start up and does not cycle.
I also have multiple cylinder misfires on bank 2, they are cylinders 5,6, and 7.
The easiest thing to do is replace the O2 under warranty and go from there. It really does seem like the O2 on bank 2 has finally gone. I also got a P0155 = Oxygen O2 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction (Bank2, Sensor1). I had this before and it would come and go. I'm not sure if this something that progresses until it finally fails but I'll soon have some answers. Please feel free to chime in and give your thoughts.
There's no doubt my tech will figure it out but I just thought I would post up for future reference. It may help others when I finally post the end result.
Who ever said modding wasnt' fun....
.
04-30-2010, 01:31 AM
#2
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
Posts: 7,092
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
10 Posts
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Hey Alan,
Doesn't Jeremy shut off a set of O2s due to our long tube headers? My car throws a cel for same codes ( cept misfires) and I just assumed it was the O2s being off. Lemme Star the car tomorrow and see exactly what codes it is throwing and I'll give ya a shout.
Misfires are scary, wonder what up with that?
Doesn't Jeremy shut off a set of O2s due to our long tube headers? My car throws a cel for same codes ( cept misfires) and I just assumed it was the O2s being off. Lemme Star the car tomorrow and see exactly what codes it is throwing and I'll give ya a shout.
Misfires are scary, wonder what up with that?
04-30-2010, 01:35 AM
#3
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
o2 shut offs are only done to the rear (post cat) o2's. If you shut off the the front o2's, it would be bad bad news. The Engine would not know what to do.
04-30-2010, 01:37 AM
#4
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
I posted this in another thread, I hope it helps ya
P0155 code is directly related to the extensions of the 02 sensors. To run the setup you have, your o2 wires were extended. When I say extended, I mean the o2 sensor/wire was cut and butt connected back together. Then wrapped in electrical tape?
I've seen this 4 times now. Replacing the o2 sensors might not fix the problem. Its my understanding the butt connecting the o2 sensor wire, causes 1 of 2 things to happen. 1) a bigtime resistance issue. 2) a short circuit some place between the ECU and extended 02 sensor.
After some folks stopping by the shop, who are running similar o2 extension setups as you. The first move would be to replace both o2 sensors. Then extend the wiring harness side rather then physically cutting/splicing an o2 sensor.
As far as I know, the correct way to extend the o2's is not 100% fixing the issue. That lead me to believe a short has occurred with the old setup. Where that short is is unknown to me at this point. So with that said the heater code will come back even after replacing the old o2's.
Just know that your not the only one who is having this issue. I am just about 100% sure it has to do with your placement of your o2's in your exhaust system.
if you are going to replace the front o2's. I would try extending the harness side rather than cutting the o2's. If that doesnt work, I would look at the PCM connectors or all the way up to the ECU. Hope this helps you out a bit.
And this
I have only seen this with people running the FF/VRP headers and exhaust system. First off it has nothing to do with the headers or exhaust, but the way the o2 sensors are extended. If this system did not require an o2 sensor extension (placement of the o2 bungs). There would be no such issue with a o2 heater code/CEL.
When random people stroll in to the shop to see if a o2 heater code can be fixed. It gets you thinking. All of them had the FF/VRP headers. The first time I seen this, we where scratching our heads. The second time, with the same exact exhaust/header setup. Got the noodle in my head working. Then a 3rd time. and now a 4th, All having the same exact exhaust & header set up.
It wouldn't even surprise me if this style of extending the o2 directly messes up the ECU. If this is causing a short... That short might be happening inside the ECU itself (not good). Again the short (If it is) could be happening any place in between the o2 and the ECU.
This might explain why just replacing the o2's doesnt fix the issue. Extending the o2's on the harness side, wont fix it.
It kind of opens the door to "who know??"
Maybe these cars dont like to have their o2 extended by cutting the o2 wire or by extending them harness side. Lets hope thats the case, and its not a permanent ECU issue.
IMO, avoid all all cost extended o2 sensors on these cars, This o2 wire might be a calibrated length. So messing with that could open up a huge can or worms.
P0155 code is directly related to the extensions of the 02 sensors. To run the setup you have, your o2 wires were extended. When I say extended, I mean the o2 sensor/wire was cut and butt connected back together. Then wrapped in electrical tape?
I've seen this 4 times now. Replacing the o2 sensors might not fix the problem. Its my understanding the butt connecting the o2 sensor wire, causes 1 of 2 things to happen. 1) a bigtime resistance issue. 2) a short circuit some place between the ECU and extended 02 sensor.
After some folks stopping by the shop, who are running similar o2 extension setups as you. The first move would be to replace both o2 sensors. Then extend the wiring harness side rather then physically cutting/splicing an o2 sensor.
As far as I know, the correct way to extend the o2's is not 100% fixing the issue. That lead me to believe a short has occurred with the old setup. Where that short is is unknown to me at this point. So with that said the heater code will come back even after replacing the old o2's.
Just know that your not the only one who is having this issue. I am just about 100% sure it has to do with your placement of your o2's in your exhaust system.
if you are going to replace the front o2's. I would try extending the harness side rather than cutting the o2's. If that doesnt work, I would look at the PCM connectors or all the way up to the ECU. Hope this helps you out a bit.
And this
I have only seen this with people running the FF/VRP headers and exhaust system. First off it has nothing to do with the headers or exhaust, but the way the o2 sensors are extended. If this system did not require an o2 sensor extension (placement of the o2 bungs). There would be no such issue with a o2 heater code/CEL.
When random people stroll in to the shop to see if a o2 heater code can be fixed. It gets you thinking. All of them had the FF/VRP headers. The first time I seen this, we where scratching our heads. The second time, with the same exact exhaust/header setup. Got the noodle in my head working. Then a 3rd time. and now a 4th, All having the same exact exhaust & header set up.
It wouldn't even surprise me if this style of extending the o2 directly messes up the ECU. If this is causing a short... That short might be happening inside the ECU itself (not good). Again the short (If it is) could be happening any place in between the o2 and the ECU.
This might explain why just replacing the o2's doesnt fix the issue. Extending the o2's on the harness side, wont fix it.
It kind of opens the door to "who know??"
Maybe these cars dont like to have their o2 extended by cutting the o2 wire or by extending them harness side. Lets hope thats the case, and its not a permanent ECU issue.
IMO, avoid all all cost extended o2 sensors on these cars, This o2 wire might be a calibrated length. So messing with that could open up a huge can or worms.
Last edited by hooleyboy; 04-30-2010 at 01:43 AM.
04-30-2010, 02:06 AM
#5
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
One more thing.... lol
when you start your car up. It starts up in open loop because because the o2's have not reached the correct operating temp. If you are having o2 heater code errors/CELs. The ECU may not know when to go closed loop. If it stays in open loop, the o2's have no control over the fuel sent to the engine, sort of.
when you start your car up. It starts up in open loop because because the o2's have not reached the correct operating temp. If you are having o2 heater code errors/CELs. The ECU may not know when to go closed loop. If it stays in open loop, the o2's have no control over the fuel sent to the engine, sort of.
04-30-2010, 02:25 AM
#6
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Hey Alan,
Doesn't Jeremy shut off a set of O2s due to our long tube headers? My car throws a cel for same codes ( cept misfires) and I just assumed it was the O2s being off. Lemme Star the car tomorrow and see exactly what codes it is throwing and I'll give ya a shout.
Misfires are scary, wonder what up with that?
Doesn't Jeremy shut off a set of O2s due to our long tube headers? My car throws a cel for same codes ( cept misfires) and I just assumed it was the O2s being off. Lemme Star the car tomorrow and see exactly what codes it is throwing and I'll give ya a shout.
Misfires are scary, wonder what up with that?
I posted this in another thread, I hope it helps ya
P0155 code is directly related to the extensions of the 02 sensors. To run the setup you have, your o2 wires were extended. When I say extended, I mean the o2 sensor/wire was cut and butt connected back together. Then wrapped in electrical tape?
I've seen this 4 times now. Replacing the o2 sensors might not fix the problem. Its my understanding the butt connecting the o2 sensor wire, causes 1 of 2 things to happen. 1) a bigtime resistance issue. 2) a short circuit some place between the ECU and extended 02 sensor.
After some folks stopping by the shop, who are running similar o2 extension setups as you. The first move would be to replace both o2 sensors. Then extend the wiring harness side rather then physically cutting/splicing an o2 sensor.
As far as I know, the correct way to extend the o2's is not 100% fixing the issue. That lead me to believe a short has occurred with the old setup. Where that short is is unknown to me at this point. So with that said the heater code will come back even after replacing the old o2's.
Just know that your not the only one who is having this issue. I am just about 100% sure it has to do with your placement of your o2's in your exhaust system.
if you are going to replace the front o2's. I would try extending the harness side rather than cutting the o2's. If that doesnt work, I would look at the PCM connectors or all the way up to the ECU. Hope this helps you out a bit.
And this
I have only seen this with people running the FF/VRP headers and exhaust system. First off it has nothing to do with the headers or exhaust, but the way the o2 sensors are extended. If this system did not require an o2 sensor extension (placement of the o2 bungs). There would be no such issue with a o2 heater code/CEL.
When random people stroll in to the shop to see if a o2 heater code can be fixed. It gets you thinking. All of them had the FF/VRP headers. The first time I seen this, we where scratching our heads. The second time, with the same exact exhaust/header setup. Got the noodle in my head working. Then a 3rd time. and now a 4th, All having the same exact exhaust & header set up.
It wouldn't even surprise me if this style of extending the o2 directly messes up the ECU. If this is causing a short... That short might be happening inside the ECU itself (not good). Again the short (If it is) could be happening any place in between the o2 and the ECU.
This might explain why just replacing the o2's doesnt fix the issue. Extending the o2's on the harness side, wont fix it.
It kind of opens the door to "who know??"
Maybe these cars dont like to have their o2 extended by cutting the o2 wire or by extending them harness side. Lets hope thats the case, and its not a permanent ECU issue.
IMO, avoid all all cost extended o2 sensors on these cars, This o2 wire might be a calibrated length. So messing with that could open up a huge can or worms.
P0155 code is directly related to the extensions of the 02 sensors. To run the setup you have, your o2 wires were extended. When I say extended, I mean the o2 sensor/wire was cut and butt connected back together. Then wrapped in electrical tape?
I've seen this 4 times now. Replacing the o2 sensors might not fix the problem. Its my understanding the butt connecting the o2 sensor wire, causes 1 of 2 things to happen. 1) a bigtime resistance issue. 2) a short circuit some place between the ECU and extended 02 sensor.
After some folks stopping by the shop, who are running similar o2 extension setups as you. The first move would be to replace both o2 sensors. Then extend the wiring harness side rather then physically cutting/splicing an o2 sensor.
As far as I know, the correct way to extend the o2's is not 100% fixing the issue. That lead me to believe a short has occurred with the old setup. Where that short is is unknown to me at this point. So with that said the heater code will come back even after replacing the old o2's.
Just know that your not the only one who is having this issue. I am just about 100% sure it has to do with your placement of your o2's in your exhaust system.
if you are going to replace the front o2's. I would try extending the harness side rather than cutting the o2's. If that doesnt work, I would look at the PCM connectors or all the way up to the ECU. Hope this helps you out a bit.
And this
I have only seen this with people running the FF/VRP headers and exhaust system. First off it has nothing to do with the headers or exhaust, but the way the o2 sensors are extended. If this system did not require an o2 sensor extension (placement of the o2 bungs). There would be no such issue with a o2 heater code/CEL.
When random people stroll in to the shop to see if a o2 heater code can be fixed. It gets you thinking. All of them had the FF/VRP headers. The first time I seen this, we where scratching our heads. The second time, with the same exact exhaust/header setup. Got the noodle in my head working. Then a 3rd time. and now a 4th, All having the same exact exhaust & header set up.
It wouldn't even surprise me if this style of extending the o2 directly messes up the ECU. If this is causing a short... That short might be happening inside the ECU itself (not good). Again the short (If it is) could be happening any place in between the o2 and the ECU.
This might explain why just replacing the o2's doesnt fix the issue. Extending the o2's on the harness side, wont fix it.
It kind of opens the door to "who know??"
Maybe these cars dont like to have their o2 extended by cutting the o2 wire or by extending them harness side. Lets hope thats the case, and its not a permanent ECU issue.
IMO, avoid all all cost extended o2 sensors on these cars, This o2 wire might be a calibrated length. So messing with that could open up a huge can or worms.
My car is going in next week to get a series of things done and it will be tuned towards the end of May.
I'm not quite sure why there might be permanent ECU damage due to a faulty O2? Please elaborate on this.
04-30-2010, 03:01 AM
#7
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
The misfires are from the car running sooo rich and it's on the same bank as the suspected faulty O2 or wiring. I'm not sweating any of this because it will be figured out. This similar thing happened to me after my header install and we figured it out and ran record numbers. The story will repeat itself once again....lol.
Thanks Mike. My tech also agrees that extending the O2's after the harness is the correct way. He believes the length of the harness is calibrated and could give some issues. All though Chiro's car had thousands of miles on his car with no issues with the O2's extended.
My car is going in next week to get a series of things done and it will be tuned towards the end of May.
I'm not quite sure why there might be permanent ECU damage due to a faulty O2? Please elaborate on this.
Thanks Mike. My tech also agrees that extending the O2's after the harness is the correct way. He believes the length of the harness is calibrated and could give some issues. All though Chiro's car had thousands of miles on his car with no issues with the O2's extended.
My car is going in next week to get a series of things done and it will be tuned towards the end of May.
I'm not quite sure why there might be permanent ECU damage due to a faulty O2? Please elaborate on this.
From what I've seen with the FF/VRP headers is this. A few customers have came into the shop. All asking to fix an o2 heater issue. So they get some new o2 sensors. then they are extended harness side. clear the codes and they are on their way. Well, a few days later the CEL pops up for a o2 heater code again. Now you are back to square 1. That leads me to think,...
1) either the o2's and harness dont like to be extended at all on any side of the harness.
2) the o2 connectors by the transmission have crapped out
3) ECU might have had a surge or something
Possible fixes: Extending the harness side, Or dont extend anything and relocate the o2 bungs to fit using OEM/stock length.
I might try this.. buy some bung caps. Plug the existing bungs with the caps. Then get all new o2's. However far they will reach (no extensions). Place your new o2 bungs there. See if that helps the issue. Worst case doing it this way is you have a few more o2 locations (capped of course)
EDIT: your STFT for bank 2 (passenger side 1st position) is adding 25% fuel at that moment of testing. In a lot of cases this could be due to a air leak some place. However in your case with the P0155 CEL/code. It looks like o2 is going crazy.. With your long term fuel trims being +25% as well. That means its been happening for a little bit. So that side of the engine is getting a lot of fuel.. 25% more than it needs. So your ECU is thinking it needs all that fuel based on input from that o2 sensor.
Last edited by hooleyboy; 04-30-2010 at 03:19 AM.
Trending Topics
04-30-2010, 03:31 AM
#8
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
If there was indeed a short from the extended o2. Its hard to say where that short may have happened. Yes, it may have originated from the the extended 02's, but where the end result traveled is anyones guess. All the way up to the ECU? I would say potentiality yes. That would mean it would have to pass by the o2 connectors by the transmission.. Did it potentialy fry those? Maybe?
From what I've seen with the FF/VRP headers is this. A few customers have came into the shop. All asking to fix an o2 heater issue. So they get some new o2 sensors. then they are extended harness side. clear the codes and they are on their way. Well, a few days later the CEL pops up for a o2 heater code again. Now you are back to square 1. That leads me to think,...
1) either the o2's and harness dont like to be extended at all on any side of the harness.
2) the o2 connectors by the transmission have crapped out
3) ECU might have had a surge or something
Possible fixes: Extending the harness side, Or dont extend anything and relocate the o2 bungs to fit using OEM/stock length.
I might try this.. buy some bung caps. Plug the existing bungs with the caps. Then get all new o2's. However far they will reach (no extensions). Place your new o2 bungs there. See if that helps the issue. Worst case doing it this way is you have a few more o2 locations (capped of course)
EDIT: your STFT for bank 2 (passenger side 1st position) is adding 25% fuel at that moment of testing. In a lot of cases this could be due to a air leak some place. However in your case with the P0155 CEL/code. It looks like o2 is going crazy.. With your long term fuel trims being +25% as well. That means its been happening for a little bit. So that side of the engine is getting a lot of fuel.. 25% more than it needs. So your ECU is thinking it needs all that fuel based on input from that o2 sensor.
From what I've seen with the FF/VRP headers is this. A few customers have came into the shop. All asking to fix an o2 heater issue. So they get some new o2 sensors. then they are extended harness side. clear the codes and they are on their way. Well, a few days later the CEL pops up for a o2 heater code again. Now you are back to square 1. That leads me to think,...
1) either the o2's and harness dont like to be extended at all on any side of the harness.
2) the o2 connectors by the transmission have crapped out
3) ECU might have had a surge or something
Possible fixes: Extending the harness side, Or dont extend anything and relocate the o2 bungs to fit using OEM/stock length.
I might try this.. buy some bung caps. Plug the existing bungs with the caps. Then get all new o2's. However far they will reach (no extensions). Place your new o2 bungs there. See if that helps the issue. Worst case doing it this way is you have a few more o2 locations (capped of course)
EDIT: your STFT for bank 2 (passenger side 1st position) is adding 25% fuel at that moment of testing. In a lot of cases this could be due to a air leak some place. However in your case with the P0155 CEL/code. It looks like o2 is going crazy.. With your long term fuel trims being +25% as well. That means its been happening for a little bit. So that side of the engine is getting a lot of fuel.. 25% more than it needs. So your ECU is thinking it needs all that fuel based on input from that o2 sensor.
I was hoping you would chime in about the fuel trim. I remember you posted some info on fuel trims before but I just couldn't find the thread.
As for the extension of the O2's, I'm not sure if I could use factory length wiring due to the length of the header setup. I'm sure Chris extended the O2's for a reason and if he could have they would have been installed near factory location.
When you say leak I assume an exhaust leak. That may be possible since I heard some slight rattling on start up. I'll dive down there tomorrow and take a look if I have time. I take it that it that the leak would need to be pre O2 in order to have these issues.
04-30-2010, 03:34 AM
#9
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Could you give a brief explanation on how the fuel trim readings work? What's consider normal and abnormal?
This would be some great information for people in the future!
This would be some great information for people in the future!
04-30-2010, 04:21 AM
#10
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
When I say leak in relation to fuel trims. I think of a vacuum leak or unmetered air getting in the system. Causing the ECU to add fuel. This is not whats happening in your case. For example: on a MAF sensor car. if air was getting in after the MAF. It would cause a fuel trim issue. 25% would be a big *** leak. My c55 had a leak that cause a 16% add in fuel. that was kind of a big leak too.
Most cars operating under normal conditions with have a STFT/LTFT of around "0" or like +/- 5%. something along those lines. When your those numbers increase either on the long term or short term, That means the ECU is adding fuel for some reason. Weather it be an air leak at the motor or a messed up o2 sensor.
When it goes negitive a %. that means exactly the opposite. The ECU is pulling fuel. It my understanding (could be wrong) if an ECU tune was adding a truck load of fuel a properly operating sensor system would communicate with the ECU telling it to pull out some fuel... Resulting in a negative % number.
Cause for concern when looking at fuel trims is anything over... say 5% up or down. If some one was getting into the +/-8% +/-10% that would make me look into it.
In a lot of cases people like to look at the Long Term Fuel Trims. That gives a better idea as to what the car is doing (Fuel wise) over a set/prolonged time frame.
Where as the Short Term Fuel Trims will tell you what the car is doing in basically real time or at that moment.
Remember your car wants to keep an optimal AFR, so the ECU is constantly communicating with sensors on the car. In a closed loop the car tries to maintain an AFR of something like 14:7.1 ... That all changes when the car goes open loop under WOT or clod start up. Thats when it runs on a set map or basically the tune you have on your car. I know its a bit more involved than that but its basically how it works
Most cars operating under normal conditions with have a STFT/LTFT of around "0" or like +/- 5%. something along those lines. When your those numbers increase either on the long term or short term, That means the ECU is adding fuel for some reason. Weather it be an air leak at the motor or a messed up o2 sensor.
When it goes negitive a %. that means exactly the opposite. The ECU is pulling fuel. It my understanding (could be wrong) if an ECU tune was adding a truck load of fuel a properly operating sensor system would communicate with the ECU telling it to pull out some fuel... Resulting in a negative % number.
Cause for concern when looking at fuel trims is anything over... say 5% up or down. If some one was getting into the +/-8% +/-10% that would make me look into it.
In a lot of cases people like to look at the Long Term Fuel Trims. That gives a better idea as to what the car is doing (Fuel wise) over a set/prolonged time frame.
Where as the Short Term Fuel Trims will tell you what the car is doing in basically real time or at that moment.
Remember your car wants to keep an optimal AFR, so the ECU is constantly communicating with sensors on the car. In a closed loop the car tries to maintain an AFR of something like 14:7.1 ... That all changes when the car goes open loop under WOT or clod start up. Thats when it runs on a set map or basically the tune you have on your car. I know its a bit more involved than that but its basically how it works
04-30-2010, 09:04 AM
#11
MBWorld Fanatic!
bassn_07 I just saw your ET and trap in your sig .....
**** ME! Thats hauling aaaasss.
I should pay more attention!
Congrats
**** ME! Thats hauling aaaasss.
I should pay more attention!
Congrats
Last edited by stevebez; 04-30-2010 at 04:29 PM.
04-30-2010, 09:31 AM
#12
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Thanks mike for the quick education on the fuel trim readings. That is some great info and I'm sure it will help many along the way!
04-30-2010, 10:30 AM
#13
Super Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: palm beach
Posts: 856
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CLS55 & CL CK60
04-30-2010, 11:15 AM
#14
MBWorld Fanatic!
My nearest strip is a 6 hour round trip ... excluding time at the strip. So its a friggin nightmare.
I would really love to see what my car could do 60-130.
bassn_07 have you got any 60-130's ?
I would really love to see what my car could do 60-130.
bassn_07 have you got any 60-130's ?
04-30-2010, 02:10 PM
#16
MBWorld Fanatic!
i know rich at dynocomp keeps pressing this issue but i'm not totally convinced that the extended o2 sensors are the problem with these heater code cel's, especially since i ran my set up that way for roughly 3 years and 60k miles with ZERO problems. for me this code only showed up after dynocomp tuned my car but imho, i believe it has more to do with the fact that the cats were also removed at that time and afterwards there just wasn't enough exhaust back pressure against the primary o2 sensors to build up enough heat and the sensor's heater ends up working overtime and fails. i guess there could also be an 82mm tb relationship but i can't connect those pieces yet. if it was purely a problem with extending the wires, i should have had all 4 o2 sensors replaced/rewired to fix the problem but i didn't need to do that.
also, i don't know how many ecu's have shorted out because of o2 sensor wiring (i highly doubt any), but my ecu short was a direct result of a broken ecu pin from careless removal/install by people working on my car at that time and definitely NOT anything to do with an o2 sensor.
also, i don't know how many ecu's have shorted out because of o2 sensor wiring (i highly doubt any), but my ecu short was a direct result of a broken ecu pin from careless removal/install by people working on my car at that time and definitely NOT anything to do with an o2 sensor.
I posted this in another thread, I hope it helps ya
P0155 code is directly related to the extensions of the 02 sensors. To run the setup you have, your o2 wires were extended. When I say extended, I mean the o2 sensor/wire was cut and butt connected back together. Then wrapped in electrical tape?
I've seen this 4 times now. Replacing the o2 sensors might not fix the problem. Its my understanding the butt connecting the o2 sensor wire, causes 1 of 2 things to happen. 1) a bigtime resistance issue. 2) a short circuit some place between the ECU and extended 02 sensor.
After some folks stopping by the shop, who are running similar o2 extension setups as you. The first move would be to replace both o2 sensors. Then extend the wiring harness side rather then physically cutting/splicing an o2 sensor.
As far as I know, the correct way to extend the o2's is not 100% fixing the issue. That lead me to believe a short has occurred with the old setup. Where that short is is unknown to me at this point. So with that said the heater code will come back even after replacing the old o2's.
Just know that your not the only one who is having this issue. I am just about 100% sure it has to do with your placement of your o2's in your exhaust system.
if you are going to replace the front o2's. I would try extending the harness side rather than cutting the o2's. If that doesnt work, I would look at the PCM connectors or all the way up to the ECU. Hope this helps you out a bit.
And this
I have only seen this with people running the FF/VRP headers and exhaust system. First off it has nothing to do with the headers or exhaust, but the way the o2 sensors are extended. If this system did not require an o2 sensor extension (placement of the o2 bungs). There would be no such issue with a o2 heater code/CEL.
When random people stroll in to the shop to see if a o2 heater code can be fixed. It gets you thinking. All of them had the FF/VRP headers. The first time I seen this, we where scratching our heads. The second time, with the same exact exhaust/header setup. Got the noodle in my head working. Then a 3rd time. and now a 4th, All having the same exact exhaust & header set up.
It wouldn't even surprise me if this style of extending the o2 directly messes up the ECU. If this is causing a short... That short might be happening inside the ECU itself (not good). Again the short (If it is) could be happening any place in between the o2 and the ECU.
This might explain why just replacing the o2's doesnt fix the issue. Extending the o2's on the harness side, wont fix it.
It kind of opens the door to "who know??"
Maybe these cars dont like to have their o2 extended by cutting the o2 wire or by extending them harness side. Lets hope thats the case, and its not a permanent ECU issue.
IMO, avoid all all cost extended o2 sensors on these cars, This o2 wire might be a calibrated length. So messing with that could open up a huge can or worms.
P0155 code is directly related to the extensions of the 02 sensors. To run the setup you have, your o2 wires were extended. When I say extended, I mean the o2 sensor/wire was cut and butt connected back together. Then wrapped in electrical tape?
I've seen this 4 times now. Replacing the o2 sensors might not fix the problem. Its my understanding the butt connecting the o2 sensor wire, causes 1 of 2 things to happen. 1) a bigtime resistance issue. 2) a short circuit some place between the ECU and extended 02 sensor.
After some folks stopping by the shop, who are running similar o2 extension setups as you. The first move would be to replace both o2 sensors. Then extend the wiring harness side rather then physically cutting/splicing an o2 sensor.
As far as I know, the correct way to extend the o2's is not 100% fixing the issue. That lead me to believe a short has occurred with the old setup. Where that short is is unknown to me at this point. So with that said the heater code will come back even after replacing the old o2's.
Just know that your not the only one who is having this issue. I am just about 100% sure it has to do with your placement of your o2's in your exhaust system.
if you are going to replace the front o2's. I would try extending the harness side rather than cutting the o2's. If that doesnt work, I would look at the PCM connectors or all the way up to the ECU. Hope this helps you out a bit.
And this
I have only seen this with people running the FF/VRP headers and exhaust system. First off it has nothing to do with the headers or exhaust, but the way the o2 sensors are extended. If this system did not require an o2 sensor extension (placement of the o2 bungs). There would be no such issue with a o2 heater code/CEL.
When random people stroll in to the shop to see if a o2 heater code can be fixed. It gets you thinking. All of them had the FF/VRP headers. The first time I seen this, we where scratching our heads. The second time, with the same exact exhaust/header setup. Got the noodle in my head working. Then a 3rd time. and now a 4th, All having the same exact exhaust & header set up.
It wouldn't even surprise me if this style of extending the o2 directly messes up the ECU. If this is causing a short... That short might be happening inside the ECU itself (not good). Again the short (If it is) could be happening any place in between the o2 and the ECU.
This might explain why just replacing the o2's doesnt fix the issue. Extending the o2's on the harness side, wont fix it.
It kind of opens the door to "who know??"
Maybe these cars dont like to have their o2 extended by cutting the o2 wire or by extending them harness side. Lets hope thats the case, and its not a permanent ECU issue.
IMO, avoid all all cost extended o2 sensors on these cars, This o2 wire might be a calibrated length. So messing with that could open up a huge can or worms.
04-30-2010, 02:56 PM
#17
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
i know rich at dynocomp keeps pressing this issue but i'm not totally convinced that the extended o2 sensors are the problem with these heater code cel's, especially since i ran my set up that way for roughly 3 years and 60k miles with ZERO problems. for me this code only showed up after dynocomp tuned my car but imho, i believe it has more to do with the fact that the cats were also removed at that time and afterwards there just wasn't enough exhaust back pressure against the primary o2 sensors to build up enough heat and the sensor's heater ends up working overtime and fails. i guess there could also be an 82mm tb relationship but i can't connect those pieces yet. if it was purely a problem with extending the wires, i should have had all 4 o2 sensors replaced/rewired to fix the problem but i didn't need to do that.
also, i don't know how many ecu's have shorted out because of o2 sensor wiring (i highly doubt any), but my ecu short was a direct result of a broken ecu pin from careless removal/install by people working on my car at that time and definitely NOT anything to do with an o2 sensor.
also, i don't know how many ecu's have shorted out because of o2 sensor wiring (i highly doubt any), but my ecu short was a direct result of a broken ecu pin from careless removal/install by people working on my car at that time and definitely NOT anything to do with an o2 sensor.
* O2 Heater element resistance is high
* Internal short or open in the heater element
* O2 heater circuit wiring high resistance
* open or short to ground in the wiring harness"
These heater codes for o2 sensors are only showing up with guys who are running the Floored Fab header/exhaust system. Its the placement of the rear cats. IIRC, they are much further back then they really should be. Result: rear o2 sensors have to be extended.
In most cases the rear o2 is shut off, so no faults pop up. The back pressure in the exhaust system would have nothing to do with it. The front o2 in its stock location is close enough to the engine that its getting hot
I ran a 3 inch system on my car with no cats at all, I did not have any issues with o2's...
I feel this is a resistance issue, Generally speaking. the longer the wire is the thicker it has to be. problem is. Where do you get thinker o2 wire? These sensors are set to run their voltage at a set length. Any addition to that length could cause a jump in resistance. thus messing the whole thing up.
04-30-2010, 03:33 PM
#18
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Salt Lake City (but not Morm)
Posts: 7,092
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
10 Posts
2003 E55 & 2014 GL550
Here is the weird part.
I have been running the LET tune for about a year without any CEL probs (we all know about the LET timing, just was talking about CELs
) . Same O2 setup etc, then plugged in the new tune from different tuner and whammo, been getting these every since. Just ran Star and she pulled P0135 and P0155.
I am not worried as this tuner is
, we'll get it figured out and be rocking again asap.
I have been running the LET tune for about a year without any CEL probs (we all know about the LET timing, just was talking about CELs
) . Same O2 setup etc, then plugged in the new tune from different tuner and whammo, been getting these every since. Just ran Star and she pulled P0135 and P0155. I am not worried as this tuner is
, we'll get it figured out and be rocking again asap.
04-30-2010, 05:16 PM
#19
MBWorld Fanatic!
we've measured resistance in the wires from the top of the harness out to the o2 sensor, in extended and stock configurations, and get zero detectable difference out to the thousandths place (.000). i've heard rich's explanation that the o2 sensor wires are "special" and the sensor can detect a difference in resistance...but if that were the case, extra resistance should be detectable with a meter and SHOULD be present no matter where the extension takes place (at the harness or at the sensor).
i was getting all 4 sensor heater cels but for some reason rich didn't have to rewire the rear sensors to get rid of those cels and my cels never came back after a complete retune...which couldn't have happened if this really is a resistance problem from floored fab's rewiring. and if it was a wiring problem, why can nobody at dynocomp explain why i was able to run with my sensors wired this way for 3 years and 60k miles without ever seeing a o2 sensor cel (nor did any of the dozens of others running the same set up)...or why it occurred IMMEDIATELY after the new dynocomp tune, cat removal, and 82mm tb install.
the fact that jakpro gets this problem with a simple tune swap and no other changes should be a BIG clue here and lends credibility to what i have been saying since immediately after my tune.
i was getting all 4 sensor heater cels but for some reason rich didn't have to rewire the rear sensors to get rid of those cels and my cels never came back after a complete retune...which couldn't have happened if this really is a resistance problem from floored fab's rewiring. and if it was a wiring problem, why can nobody at dynocomp explain why i was able to run with my sensors wired this way for 3 years and 60k miles without ever seeing a o2 sensor cel (nor did any of the dozens of others running the same set up)...or why it occurred IMMEDIATELY after the new dynocomp tune, cat removal, and 82mm tb install.
the fact that jakpro gets this problem with a simple tune swap and no other changes should be a BIG clue here and lends credibility to what i have been saying since immediately after my tune.
"A code P0155 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:
* O2 Heater element resistance is high
* Internal short or open in the heater element
* O2 heater circuit wiring high resistance
* open or short to ground in the wiring harness"
These heater codes for o2 sensors are only showing up with guys who are running the Floored Fab header/exhaust system. Its the placement of the rear cats. IIRC, they are much further back then they really should be. Result: rear o2 sensors have to be extended.
In most cases the rear o2 is shut off, so no faults pop up. The back pressure in the exhaust system would have nothing to do with it. The front o2 in its stock location is close enough to the engine that its getting hot
I ran a 3 inch system on my car with no cats at all, I did not have any issues with o2's...
I feel this is a resistance issue, Generally speaking. the longer the wire is the thicker it has to be. problem is. Where do you get thinker o2 wire? These sensors are set to run their voltage at a set length. Any addition to that length could cause a jump in resistance. thus messing the whole thing up.
* O2 Heater element resistance is high
* Internal short or open in the heater element
* O2 heater circuit wiring high resistance
* open or short to ground in the wiring harness"
These heater codes for o2 sensors are only showing up with guys who are running the Floored Fab header/exhaust system. Its the placement of the rear cats. IIRC, they are much further back then they really should be. Result: rear o2 sensors have to be extended.
In most cases the rear o2 is shut off, so no faults pop up. The back pressure in the exhaust system would have nothing to do with it. The front o2 in its stock location is close enough to the engine that its getting hot
I ran a 3 inch system on my car with no cats at all, I did not have any issues with o2's...
I feel this is a resistance issue, Generally speaking. the longer the wire is the thicker it has to be. problem is. Where do you get thinker o2 wire? These sensors are set to run their voltage at a set length. Any addition to that length could cause a jump in resistance. thus messing the whole thing up.
04-30-2010, 05:31 PM
#20
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
I also just found this out. i'm not sure if I'm going to word this right, but I'll give it a shot. Maps based on older files have a little more relaxed emissions related stuff. As the new maps where made of new files. The emissions codes changed as the laws got a bit stricter... What i'm trying to say is... If you had a file for years with your currant setup and it worked. Then switched to an other tuner years later. chances are that new map is made off of new software. The new software might have emissions related things that dont work with that style of o2 extension. This might be due to sensitivity.
Again, it kind of opens the door to.... who knows
If you think of it in this way, the new tune you just got may not be compatible with the extended o2's. Just maybe though older maps are. Thats might explain why Mikey's car worked, Then got o2 heater codes after a new tune, based on an updated file. again Who knows
Again, it kind of opens the door to.... who knows
If you think of it in this way, the new tune you just got may not be compatible with the extended o2's. Just maybe though older maps are. Thats might explain why Mikey's car worked, Then got o2 heater codes after a new tune, based on an updated file. again Who knows
04-30-2010, 05:43 PM
#21
MBWorld Fanatic!
btw, who are these random 4 people that have shown up to dynocomp with these codes? i'm pretty sure i know most of the people with floored fab headers/exhaust (especially local owners) and neither myself nor ff has EVER heard of any complaints.
04-30-2010, 05:45 PM
#22
MBWorld Fanatic!
I also just found this out. i'm not sure if I'm going to word this right, but I'll give it a shot. Maps based on older files have a little more relaxed emissions related stuff. As the new maps where made of new files. The emissions codes changed as the laws got a bit stricter... What i'm trying to say is... If you had a file for years with your currant setup and it worked. Then switched to an other tuner years later. chances are that new map is made off of new software. The new software might have emissions related things that dont work with that style of o2 extension. This might be due to sensitivity.
Again, it kind of opens the door to.... who knows
If you think of it in this way, the new tune you just got may not be compatible with the extended o2's. Just maybe though older maps are. Thats might explain why Mikey's car worked, Then got o2 heater codes after a new tune, based on an updated file. again Who knows
Again, it kind of opens the door to.... who knows
If you think of it in this way, the new tune you just got may not be compatible with the extended o2's. Just maybe though older maps are. Thats might explain why Mikey's car worked, Then got o2 heater codes after a new tune, based on an updated file. again Who knows
04-30-2010, 06:47 PM
#23
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Glendale Arizona
Posts: 3,193
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
C55,SL55,C63
Lets toss this one out here...
If someone with the FF header/exhaust setup as their only mod. took their car into the dealer. With no code for P0155 o2 Heater code. Then had their car updated to the latest MB software. Part of me thinks they would start getting that P0155... So I think it very well could be software related. Its one of those things to put on the list to check out.
In your situation, IIRC, The kleemann tune and the LET tune did not toss the P0155? Did you ever reload the LET tune after the RT tune? If so did the LET tune toss that CEL too? If it didnt with the LET tune one would think its software related. However if it did, then maybe its not software related.
Needless to say I just want to see all you guys have fun, go fast, and kick butt at the track. So regardless of what tune or hardware you run. it just a matter of having it work well with your car.
If someone with the FF header/exhaust setup as their only mod. took their car into the dealer. With no code for P0155 o2 Heater code. Then had their car updated to the latest MB software. Part of me thinks they would start getting that P0155... So I think it very well could be software related. Its one of those things to put on the list to check out.
In your situation, IIRC, The kleemann tune and the LET tune did not toss the P0155? Did you ever reload the LET tune after the RT tune? If so did the LET tune toss that CEL too? If it didnt with the LET tune one would think its software related. However if it did, then maybe its not software related.
Needless to say I just want to see all you guys have fun, go fast, and kick butt at the track. So regardless of what tune or hardware you run. it just a matter of having it work well with your car.
05-01-2010, 01:13 AM
#24
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
You haven't even raced yourself yet...lol. Just kidding Aaron and I know your car will be a beast. Keep in mind my car will be no slouch and will only get faster from here on out 
.
Maybe one day we'll have the pleasure of meeting up.
I'm somewhat lucky to have a track near me that allows me run the times I do without a roll cage.
I have only tried one legit pass and only turned a 8.4 but I had major tire slippage to about 65-70 mph. This was my first time doing it and I didn't have the chance to do multiple runs due to unexpected company patrolling our lovely streets. I would honestly guess mid to high 7's. Due to the gearing on our cars I don't think we'll see stellar times. Our cars are much more suited for the 1/4 mile runs and to me that's much more important. I'm not into street racing so 60-130 runs are pointless but none the less still fun to do. IMO the 1/4 mile run is a true testament of both power and torque that takes a little some skills. Racing heads up is very exciting and when RT's come into the play the better driver will have the advantage. Just my $.02 on this subject.
Thanks Jim! BTW...it was nice talking with ya today, always a pleasure to pickt the mind of one of the greats!
I've been thinking about our conversation and I honestly don't believe it's tune related but do what you said and we'll find out. I had the P0135 which is the bank 1 sensor heater circuit and after replacement it never came back. I've been getting the P0155 for sometime now and I think my O2 finally gave out completely. I'll do the same as before and it will solve the problem. Wouldn't you agree if it was tune related the P0135 wold have came back? I would think so but you guys know much more than myself.
.Maybe one day we'll have the pleasure of meeting up
.I have only tried one legit pass and only turned a 8.4 but I had major tire slippage to about 65-70 mph. This was my first time doing it and I didn't have the chance to do multiple runs due to unexpected company patrolling our lovely streets. I would honestly guess mid to high 7's. Due to the gearing on our cars I don't think we'll see stellar times. Our cars are much more suited for the 1/4 mile runs and to me that's much more important. I'm not into street racing so 60-130 runs are pointless but none the less still fun to do. IMO the 1/4 mile run is a true testament of both power and torque that takes a little some skills. Racing heads up is very exciting and when RT's come into the play the better driver will have the advantage. Just my $.02 on this subject.
Thanks Jim! BTW...it was nice talking with ya today, always a pleasure to pickt the mind of one of the greats!
Here is the weird part.
I have been running the LET tune for about a year without any CEL probs (we all know about the LET timing, just was talking about CELs) . Same O2 setup etc, then plugged in the new tune from different tuner and whammo, been getting these every since. Just ran Star and she pulled P0135 and P0155.
I am not worried as this tuner is, we'll get it figured out and be rocking again asap.
I have been running the LET tune for about a year without any CEL probs (we all know about the LET timing, just was talking about CELs
) . Same O2 setup etc, then plugged in the new tune from different tuner and whammo, been getting these every since. Just ran Star and she pulled P0135 and P0155. I am not worried as this tuner is
, we'll get it figured out and be rocking again asap.
05-01-2010, 01:20 AM
#25
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
.Either way regardless of the opinions I would highly recommend FF's headers due to the fact they are proven. If you really think about it, FF does zero advertising but yet people are still lining up to buy his product, IMO that speaks volumes about his products.
