Jakpro1

Sure to inspire some classic MBworld debate, but I read an interesting article in which a Ferrari rep calls manual trannys " too slow and outdated" and claimed the 458 Italia would NEVER see a manual.

After all these years of getting blasted for autos (rightly so of course with our 5 speed slushers), but could we be finally be entering a new era with the dual clutch etc?

Just curious what some of the handling guys/stick shift guys thought bout it.

Cant copy and paste article text due to TOS but here ya go

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a1bBvbTkXwt0

Kev04C320

The 7-speed DCT is faster than the 6MT on the M3, so I guess the people at Monza is not far off.

220S

There's no way I can be as fast as a dual clutch auto tranny. Just the response time to depress the clutch, move my arm, etc..

If I was road racing as a pro, yeah give me a modern dual clutch tranny. Any F1 driver will tell you that.

That said, while I would probably buy a PDK 997.2 with no questions asked, I really enjoy driving the back twisties in my 993 while rowing my own. It's just plain fun to change gears with a mechanical shifter and practice toe and heel, etc.. A lot slower but entertaining on a nice Sunday morning with nobody else on the road. I'd hate to have to give that option up.

Quadcammer

If all you want is the fastest shifts, the automated dual clutch manuals are your best bet.

IMHO, if you want the most enjoyment from a sports car, you need a 3rd pedal and shifter.

I seem to be in the minority among my own generation with that view point.

Luke_M

I was just talking to my dad and sis (both racers) about this. The new dual clutches just make traditional manuals look ancient, like a carburetor or something. Random bit of history but Karl Benz invented the carbuertor.

Anyway, there is something to be said about being able to heel-toe and make good use of a real manual but like many other things it's going out of style quick. I think many will stay dogmatic about manuals but for going fast, having the ultimate in control and everyday easy to usability you can't beat a dual clutch. It just improves the car in so many ways and people better get used to it to because it looks like almost every major manufactuer is going to have it soon.

I'm waiting for a twin turbo, dual clutch, awd 4 door sedan. That's the ultimate direction we're going. Porsche has it with the panamera, but it's 150k, but I suppose that's a glimpse of the future for what MB, BMW, Audi, etc will bring to the table with their super sedans. Or should to really kill it IMO

VCA_AMG

Having ridden in several GT-Rs & PDK Porsches, the performance benefits a dual clutch auto can bring to a supercar are obvious.

Still, I learned how to drive on a manual car (I'm only in my 30's!) and I *love* rowing through a manual gearbox.

The Ferraris I've driven make the hairs on my neck stand on end when clanking through the metal gated manual shifter. It's obvious the F1 tranny is faster, but manual shift supercars have a SOUL...a relationship between the car and driver that no F1 transmission can replace. It's a dance between the 3 pedals and your feet, hands and mind that is utterly deleted with a "floppy paddle gearbox" as Clarkson likes to say.

What if the car could drive itself and shift from 0-100mph in 2 sec? Would that be preferred? Technology is slowly removing driver input one bit at a time. Do you think some of today's F1 drivers could compete with Senna, who drove in the rain WITHOUT the traction control aids they have now? At what point do you accept computer intervention, and at what point do you insist upon driver input for a sports car? I know this is overboard, but just for argument's sake...

I live in LA so traffic makes an auto an easy choice. But I'd still take a manual 6spd Ferrari or Lambo for my Mulholland Drive trip.

MB_Forever

Since almost all sport cars emphasize the performance aspect, it seems only natural to offer the fastest shifting transmission. Back when the difference in shift times between high-speed auto transmissions and manual transmissions was not too great, some companies were able to get away with continuing to offer a manual option. But lately, with the introduction of ultra high-speed dual clutch systems, manual transmissions will continue to die until they are ruled out completely.

It is somewhat sad since the manual tranny provides a certain enjoyment to the driving experience. It would be interesting to see if BMW will rule out the manual option all together or not.

MTV8

It is amazing that so many seem to feel this way about manual transmissions, but the sales figures just do not back it up.

Luke_M

I agree! I don't mean that with any harshness or any implied insults either. It just really is interesting. I read that 1% of Ferrari 430's had a traditional manual. 1 percent!!!!

skratch77

I thought the double clutch was a manual?I dont think those have torque converters.Im not sure tho but I know the smg in the bmw is a manual,it even uses the same clutch as the 6spd and is the same tranny.

even the ones in like the 360 are manual with just a wicked fast hydrolic clutch system...

now if you guys mean auto like no clutch peddle then yeah MB was right,but these trannys are nothing like a normal auto

Xander Crews

There's always going to be a percentage of drivers that want a traditional gearbox. :2cents:

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

Yes there certainly will, but will it be enough to justify the development and production costs for one? Not so much anymore.

I've been saying this for years, the manual is dying a slow death but it is nevertheless dying.

Blacksport350

I had my first "flappy paddle gearbox" some time ago back in a Ferrari 355 F1 and it was FANTASTIC! I absolutely loved the brutality and speed of the shifts and mourned how tame the 360 F1 and SMG I/SMG II gearboxes were by comparison. The latest SMG (now overly complex for what it does) and DCT gearboxes are an enthusiasts dream and I can't imagine owning a modern exotic without one. These are after all still manual gearboxes, just shifted through paddles and with computer controlled clutches.

In contrast, I have never liked automatic trannys with the sole exception of the AMG Speedshift which has been tolerable since I got my first C36 AMG back in the day.

Knowing that the manual is dead, I recently purchased my last manual in an M6. The SMG III is the faster option but there is something magical about being able to clutch that free revving V10 yourself so that is the route I went. One last fling with "old technology".

I highly doubt that I will own any another car with a manual tranny or an AMG Speedshift again as the automotive world is on to better things.

BTW, Even the VW GTI has an absolutely world class DCT transmission so how can one argue with that!

absent

Everybody says they want or prefer a real manual,yet when BMW listened to car blogs and email campaigns from enthusiasts demanding a proper manual M5 ,they got their *** handed back to them when they finally brought the car to US market.
No one bought it (at least in any significant #s justifing the development).

Cylinder Head

iTrader: (1)

They basically slapped an old solution on a new problem. That 6-speed was in no way mated properly to the S85 motor so performance absolutely suffered. Most people stopped yelling "SMG sucks!" once they tried to keep up with that 5 liter V10.

DAGREEKNYC

Anyone tried to update their cars yet to a newer style tranny ????? Is it possible??????

Marcus Frost

I find it very unfortunate that there are not enough people purchasing manual transmissions to keep them alive. To me, there is nothing like the song and dance of a clutch pedal and shifter, I don't care how much faster these new transmissions are.

I realize this sounds strange coming from a guy with only automatic transmission cars, but honestly it's just coincidence that I don't have a manual. I think most people (at least Americans) who love these auto-manual boxes are not proficient at driving a manual hence thinking flipping a paddle and getting a quick shift is so great. Heel-toe, that 1st-2nd slam, working 3 pedals... it's just a visceral experience that no tap of a paddle will ever be able to match.

-m

Quadcammer

agreed. Pretty soon the steering wheel and pedals will be replaced by a joystick and we will all be driving big Xboxes.

cte430

we'll know it's dead when porsche sticks PDK into the GT3/RS without offering 6MT as an option.

Peter_02AMG

I got to have a 6-spd manual in my 911, an automatic take the fun out of a sport cars but it nice to have an automatic in a sedan.

LADY_AMG

I bought a manual car as a DD to make my commute to work more interesting. I love the feeling of a perfect shift, especially around a curve or corner.

abhatti55

Almost certain the perfect manual transmission sedan is/was the E39 M5, even the 540i for that matter a little less power but still fun as hell to drive.

220S

I've driven a Cayman S with both a manual and the new PDK. The car isn't super fast to begin with but the driving dynamics are insanely perfect. The manual was much more fitting and engaging with that sort of car. It's totally about driving hard in the twisties and the manual shifter just seemed to add more to the fun.

jpohl402

Most people (including myself) do NOT consider those Manual transmissions at all - those are more a form of automatic. A Manual has three pedals - nothing else.

VCA_AMG

Very true, there's no arguing the sales data. I'm obviously in the minority, preferring manual transmissions.

Interestingly enough, living in LA I will purchase autos when given the option, unless it's a 3rd or 4th car that's a weekender or track car. Then I want a manual.