Forged Pistons Were to get them
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
JE has been providing pistons for Porsche applications for years. Porsche cylinder walls are basically the same as MB's. Although not listed, they probably already have pistons for the 113. I know they also have pistons for Ferrari as I have them in my C4 12 cylinder.
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Au...e/Porsche.aspx
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Au...e/Porsche.aspx
Last edited by BlownV8; Dec 23, 2010 at 02:40 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 32
From: Florida-Germany-New York
2004 E55,1969 300SEL6.3,2011 ML350 BlueTec Diesel,2005 ML400 CDI
Not the same. Early 911's used cast iron cylinders. More modern 911's used Nikasil on the air-cooled aluminum bore 911's. The 928 and 944 used Alusil. Newer Porsche water cooled engines use Lokasil. It's a newer version of Alusil. The GT2 and GT3's still use Nikasil coated bores.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 952
Likes: 9
From: NJ/Greece
2006 CLS55 & 2002 SL55 (R129) Silver Arrow
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
Before you waste your money. Call some reputable Mercedes engine builders who do it for a living and see what they use. Try Renntech or Kleeman and see what they say.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 952
Likes: 9
From: NJ/Greece
2006 CLS55 & 2002 SL55 (R129) Silver Arrow
The rep asked me what coating is in the bore in order for them to apply the proper coating to the pistons. I'm 90% sure its alusil, which is why they suggested I send them 2 pistons to examine and confirm.
The pistons I'm getting will be fabricated (with the proper coating), they're not off the shelf. I agree with everything your saying, though I'm pretty confident JE will figure this out.
Your concerns are much appreciated, the last thing I want to do is make a costly mistake.
The pistons I'm getting will be fabricated (with the proper coating), they're not off the shelf. I agree with everything your saying, though I'm pretty confident JE will figure this out.
Your concerns are much appreciated, the last thing I want to do is make a costly mistake.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,882
Likes: 1,212
From: In my garage
E55, GLS450, GL63, GLE350
If they can do an iron/ferrocote, that would be perfect. The only one they offer that looks like it might work in the Alusil bore is the KoolKote since it covers the entire piston/cylinder area.
Good luck. Make sure you get the piston to wall clearance correct. With the JE's you will have to run more clearance than the Mahle's because the JE aluminum has a different different expansion coefficient than the Mercedes cylinder. Your clearance will be greater and you could have some piston slap until the engine reaches operating temperature.
I'm usually thrifty and I was when I learned the issue with JE's in the Alusil bore with a non OE piston coating the hard way. In hind site, I'd go with the Mahle's or coat the cylinders in Nikasil. The Mahle's cost much more than the JE's but they will last much longer and you will sleep well at night not worring if your piston to cylinder clearance is correct or if the coating is going to fail and ruin your engine.
There is nothing wrong with JE pistons but they were not made for the Alusil/Lokasil blocks. I wish you the best of luck but don't be surprised if you have an early engine failure.
Good luck. Make sure you get the piston to wall clearance correct. With the JE's you will have to run more clearance than the Mahle's because the JE aluminum has a different different expansion coefficient than the Mercedes cylinder. Your clearance will be greater and you could have some piston slap until the engine reaches operating temperature.
I'm usually thrifty and I was when I learned the issue with JE's in the Alusil bore with a non OE piston coating the hard way. In hind site, I'd go with the Mahle's or coat the cylinders in Nikasil. The Mahle's cost much more than the JE's but they will last much longer and you will sleep well at night not worring if your piston to cylinder clearance is correct or if the coating is going to fail and ruin your engine.
There is nothing wrong with JE pistons but they were not made for the Alusil/Lokasil blocks. I wish you the best of luck but don't be surprised if you have an early engine failure.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 32
From: Florida-Germany-New York
2004 E55,1969 300SEL6.3,2011 ML350 BlueTec Diesel,2005 ML400 CDI
If they can do an iron/ferrocote, that would be perfect. The only one they offer that looks like it might work in the Alusil bore is the KoolKote since it covers the entire piston/cylinder area.
Good luck. Make sure you get the piston to wall clearance correct. With the JE's you will have to run more clearance than the Mahle's because the JE aluminum has a different different expansion coefficient than the Mercedes cylinder. Your clearance will be greater and you could have some piston slap until the engine reaches operating temperature.
I'm usually thrifty and I was when I learned the issue with JE's in the Alusil bore with a non OE piston coating the hard way. In hind site, I'd go with the Mahle's or coat the cylinders in Nikasil. The Mahle's cost much more than the JE's but they will last much longer and you will sleep well at night not worring if your piston to cylinder clearance is correct or if the coating is going to fail and ruin your engine.
There is nothing wrong with JE pistons but they were not made for the Alusil/Lokasil blocks. I wish you the best of luck but don't be surprised if you have an early engine failure.
Good luck. Make sure you get the piston to wall clearance correct. With the JE's you will have to run more clearance than the Mahle's because the JE aluminum has a different different expansion coefficient than the Mercedes cylinder. Your clearance will be greater and you could have some piston slap until the engine reaches operating temperature.
I'm usually thrifty and I was when I learned the issue with JE's in the Alusil bore with a non OE piston coating the hard way. In hind site, I'd go with the Mahle's or coat the cylinders in Nikasil. The Mahle's cost much more than the JE's but they will last much longer and you will sleep well at night not worring if your piston to cylinder clearance is correct or if the coating is going to fail and ruin your engine.
There is nothing wrong with JE pistons but they were not made for the Alusil/Lokasil blocks. I wish you the best of luck but don't be surprised if you have an early engine failure.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 952
Likes: 9
From: NJ/Greece
2006 CLS55 & 2002 SL55 (R129) Silver Arrow
After reading your posts I'm begining to second guess my decision. I don't understand why Mahle can manufacture the right piston, and why you guys believe JE cant?
Having my original piston in hand, why wouldn't JE be able to fabricate the right piston with the right coating?
Please explain this as I don't want to regret my decision. Your input is much appreciated.
Having my original piston in hand, why wouldn't JE be able to fabricate the right piston with the right coating?
Please explain this as I don't want to regret my decision. Your input is much appreciated.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
BlownV8 is right
BlownV8 sent me a great article on this. I did not heed his advice and allowed Vadim to go with custom CP pistons. Engine seized up after a few hundred miles due piston expansion and clearance to wall issues. The entire block was not salvageable so i had to get a brand new E55 short block.
Go with Mahle or Koblenscmidt (sp?). The ONLY SAFE choices.
Go with Mahle or Koblenscmidt (sp?). The ONLY SAFE choices.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,173
Likes: 7
From: Puerto Rico
2005 E55 AMG
BlownV8 sent me a great article on this. I did not heed his advice and allowed Vadim to go with custom CP pistons. Engine seized up after a few hundred miles due piston expansion and clearance to wall issues. The entire block was not salvageable so i had to get a brand new E55 short block.
Go with Mahle or Koblenscmidt (sp?). The ONLY SAFE choices.
Go with Mahle or Koblenscmidt (sp?). The ONLY SAFE choices.
Regardless, getting the proper type of piston is without a doubt beneficial...but I wouldn't blame the seized engine on JE.
FWIW, I've used CP,JE and Mahle pistons before in other builds I've done or assisted in and have yet to have an issue. Piston to wall clearance is CRUCIAL. To much and you have clatter/blow-by...to little and your engine will seize.
Last edited by GT-ER; Mar 12, 2011 at 08:12 AM.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 952
Likes: 9
From: NJ/Greece
2006 CLS55 & 2002 SL55 (R129) Silver Arrow
GT-ER is correct.
Forged pistons have a higher expansion rate, thus the reason they're made slightly smaller than the cast ones.
A reputable manufacturer takes this into consideration when they fabricate a custom application.
I just had mine installed and will be getting the car back this coming week.
I'll let you know how it works out.
Forged pistons have a higher expansion rate, thus the reason they're made slightly smaller than the cast ones.
A reputable manufacturer takes this into consideration when they fabricate a custom application.
I just had mine installed and will be getting the car back this coming week.
I'll let you know how it works out.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,173
Likes: 7
From: Puerto Rico
2005 E55 AMG
It's all in the clearances. Using the right material/coatings will allow for tighter clearances without seizing but most modern piston designs will allow for loose piston to wall clearances with minimal to no piston slap.
Heck, for me piston slap has been a thing of the past with how awesome piston skirts have been as of lately.
Heck, for me piston slap has been a thing of the past with how awesome piston skirts have been as of lately.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 952
Likes: 9
From: NJ/Greece
2006 CLS55 & 2002 SL55 (R129) Silver Arrow
Pictures of forged piston and skirt coating...
I took a couple cell phone pics I took of a piston prior to instalation.
Here you could see the skirt coating we're talking about.
Here you could see the skirt coating we're talking about.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,124
Likes: 32
From: Florida-Germany-New York
2004 E55,1969 300SEL6.3,2011 ML350 BlueTec Diesel,2005 ML400 CDI
BlownV8 sent me a great article on this. I did not heed his advice and allowed Vadim to go with custom CP pistons. Engine seized up after a few hundred miles due piston expansion and clearance to wall issues. The entire block was not salvageable so i had to get a brand new E55 short block.
Go with Mahle or Koblenscmidt (sp?). The ONLY SAFE choices.
Go with Mahle or Koblenscmidt (sp?). The ONLY SAFE choices.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,347
Likes: 1
From: So Cal
2006 Weistec 3.0L SC'd C55, 2006 MaxPsi PT6466 Turbo'd M3, 2019 Maserati GTS , 2020Alfa Quadrifoglio
I am not blaming CP. The engine builder did not spec the tolerance properly as Vadim admitted. My experience just tells me that unless you have an engine builder that did this numerous times, I would just go with the safe route such as Mahle or Kob.
How is this the piston manufacturers fault? The engine builder must make sure that the piston to wall clearance is large enough to allow for piston expansion before full assembly. I understand that the coating affects, but it's a consideration that should be taken when honing the bore.
Regardless, getting the proper type of piston is without a doubt beneficial...but I wouldn't blame the seized engine on JE.
FWIW, I've used CP,JE and Mahle pistons before in other builds I've done or assisted in and have yet to have an issue. Piston to wall clearance is CRUCIAL. To much and you have clatter/blow-by...to little and your engine will seize.
Regardless, getting the proper type of piston is without a doubt beneficial...but I wouldn't blame the seized engine on JE.
FWIW, I've used CP,JE and Mahle pistons before in other builds I've done or assisted in and have yet to have an issue. Piston to wall clearance is CRUCIAL. To much and you have clatter/blow-by...to little and your engine will seize.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,173
Likes: 7
From: Puerto Rico
2005 E55 AMG
There is no "safe" way without checking for proper piston to wall clearance. There are only lesser bad ways...lol. Even OEM require to be checked ( though most people probably don't and mostly get away with it since they are definitely going to be the best made-to-fit ).
I usually just go a little over when boring ( the largest piston to wall clearance possible without overdoing it ). The chances of piston slap on a modern design is minimal ( have yet to have one slap ) and the chances of the engine seizing is near zero.
PLATINUM SPONSOR
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,834
Likes: 65
From: Texas
2003 CL55
When I rebuilt my block, it was sent to Milenium and nikasil coated.. Then stock piston was sent to Wisco and they made thier armor coated pistons for my block.
The only problem, was that Wiseco did not have the dies to make the rod to piston clearance for factory AMG top driven specs. So, I had to have shims made.. JE owns Wiseco and JE can make the piston for the top drive specs.. If I did it over again, JE would get the nod.. Either way, my build has been rock solid for 25K so far.. Dynos, 1/4 mile and mile racing.. Engine makes great power and my recent compression test was perfect!!!! The forged pistons due burn a little more oil, like a good warm up and love to run hot!
One last thing, Wiseco prefers thier forged pistons to run .030-.035 piston to wall clearnace and it would be nice to get that a little tighter, if one had a choice.. .027 would be nice! JE can do it.
The only problem, was that Wiseco did not have the dies to make the rod to piston clearance for factory AMG top driven specs. So, I had to have shims made.. JE owns Wiseco and JE can make the piston for the top drive specs.. If I did it over again, JE would get the nod.. Either way, my build has been rock solid for 25K so far.. Dynos, 1/4 mile and mile racing.. Engine makes great power and my recent compression test was perfect!!!! The forged pistons due burn a little more oil, like a good warm up and love to run hot!
One last thing, Wiseco prefers thier forged pistons to run .030-.035 piston to wall clearnace and it would be nice to get that a little tighter, if one had a choice.. .027 would be nice! JE can do it.
__________________
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
facebook.com/ultimatepd
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,173
Likes: 7
From: Puerto Rico
2005 E55 AMG
When I rebuilt my block, it was sent to Milenium and nikasil coated.. Then stock piston was sent to Wisco and they made thier armor coated pistons for my block.
The only problem, was that Wiseco did not have the dies to make the rod to piston clearance for factory AMG top driven specs. So, I had to have shims made.. JE owns Wiseco and JE can make the piston for the top drive specs.. If I did it over again, JE would get the nod.. Either way, my build has been rock solid for 25K so far.. Dynos, 1/4 mile and mile racing.. Engine makes great power and my recent compression test was perfect!!!! The forged pistons due burn a little more oil, like a good warm up and love to run hot!
One last thing, Wiseco prefers thier forged pistons to run .030-.035 piston to wall clearnace and it would be nice to get that a little tighter, if one had a choice.. .027 would be nice! JE can do it.
The only problem, was that Wiseco did not have the dies to make the rod to piston clearance for factory AMG top driven specs. So, I had to have shims made.. JE owns Wiseco and JE can make the piston for the top drive specs.. If I did it over again, JE would get the nod.. Either way, my build has been rock solid for 25K so far.. Dynos, 1/4 mile and mile racing.. Engine makes great power and my recent compression test was perfect!!!! The forged pistons due burn a little more oil, like a good warm up and love to run hot!
One last thing, Wiseco prefers thier forged pistons to run .030-.035 piston to wall clearnace and it would be nice to get that a little tighter, if one had a choice.. .027 would be nice! JE can do it.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 952
Likes: 9
From: NJ/Greece
2006 CLS55 & 2002 SL55 (R129) Silver Arrow
JE shimmed my pistons as well.
They offered to make me a set of forged rods, but upon receiving my stockers they told me the AMG rods are strong enough.
I hope I have the same luck your having. Getting the car back tomorrow.
They offered to make me a set of forged rods, but upon receiving my stockers they told me the AMG rods are strong enough.
I hope I have the same luck your having. Getting the car back tomorrow.
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 443
Likes: 8
From: UK
Stage 3 63
Hey
Anyone got part number for the forged pistons as I am looking to get a set, finding it hard to get them in the UK, any contact numbers and prices would be great as I am building my bottom end on my E55
Thanks acid
Anyone got part number for the forged pistons as I am looking to get a set, finding it hard to get them in the UK, any contact numbers and prices would be great as I am building my bottom end on my E55
Thanks acid
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,659
Likes: 67
From: Atlanta
2006 E55 AMG
The reason why your cyl 8 piston melted is due to a fuel starvation issue. I would call Bruce, owner of TTM and ask him to explain to you why this occurs. He came up with a fuel kit that takes care of this issue. It is my understanding, #8 is the last cylinder to receive fuel, and on modded 55K motors, this is starting to happen more and more.
Exotic-Metal on here, did a engine rebuild with forged JE pistons I believe, but you need to be aware of the special coating of the engine block before you choose a forged piston.
Exotic-Metal on here, did a engine rebuild with forged JE pistons I believe, but you need to be aware of the special coating of the engine block before you choose a forged piston.
Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 107
Likes: 5
From: New Orleans, La.
2009 gmc sierra 1500, 2005 C55 AMG, 2007 SL55 AMG.
Tech how did the JE pistons work out for you? and did you balance the rotating assembly after, and how much did they charge to make pistons? Sorry so many questions thanks in advance.
