jangy

I agree fully. For a shorty, the log maximizes total volume flow (HP) and not low end (TQ). The difference in price (big) and gains (minor) between the brands makes it an apples and oranges sititation....

bassn_07

For sure! It all comes down to how deep your pocket runs but if you take out the big name ticket of Renntech the VRP shorty's perform just as well or better. Once again there are downfalls to purchasing a product that will no longer be supported. Obviously your best bet would be to buy a used set from a reputable member and there shouldn't be any issues.

I do find it funny that people make fun of these headers with proven results on the track at a very reasonable price.....

Just to note, I have several Renntech items on my car and I don't have a single complaint about quality or performance. All though I will admit they did come at a much higher price tag over similar products now offered here on MBW.

MB_Forever

In terms of power, I agree with Jangy: the VRP exhaust manifolds probably maximizes gains although I think the performance between the headers will be very close. To me, the RennTech ones look like they're just so much better designed (not just the one pictured but the original 55k one). However, I think the purchasing decision has to factor some type of product support as well. Otherwise, what good is it buying a header that may possibly crack or may already have a manufacturing defect or whatever problem that may arise if the product is discontinued and the company may not support it.

The price argument (to me) is very relative and depends on personal choice. For instance, one could look at Brabus's current prices and think they are way too expensive and that RennTech prices are dirt cheap in comparison while others can look at a Powerchip tune and think that they are way too expensive when compared to Eurocharged/LET tunes, etc.... I think having a solid-standing relationship with the actual company and how comfortable you feel with their service and support plays a major role in the purchasing decision. Oh and although brand name price tag factors into the equation, product quality and integrity also play a big role between the different companies out there.

jangy

Dropping bottom end TQ to gain traps is the name of the game. The 55k is just a TQ MONSTER. If you look at the HP / TQ graph of a stock vs nicely modded (for 1/4 mile style) E55 one additional thing to look for is a flattening of the lines.

I agree with what many are saying and we should keep in mind that the only reason that we are even comparing the two and talking prices is because of OP's initial poll. I assumed he meant he was considering doing it so I gave the edge to VRP because I am familiar with this particular product. As for service, etc. I assumed OP knew the deal...

jangy

40hp gains with a shorty? NOT A CHANCE, regardless of the brand. Those gains would be more in-line with LTs PLUS a custom tune. Taboo or not, it sound slimey to me. First, the word gets spread that they are RT knock offs or even the same, LOL!! Dont forget, the shape of headers on the outside has nothing to do with the craftsmanship and welding on the inside. Then, this rediculous claim of 40hp gains in a controlled study. This forum is way too refined for that.

skratch77

are kleemanns considered shortys or LT? mine are on and we just cut the primary cats off and just need to weld in the piggy pipes.

I was told 30-40 whp with them and the cat delete.

jangy

Kleemans are considered mid-lenghts. My honest guess would be closer to 25 but 30 is realistic depending on gas used, etc.

otoupalik

**** ADMIN WARNING ****

The discussion, sale, promotion and/or advertising of COPY-CAT, KNOCK OFF and/or REPLICA product is specifically prohibited on this site.

As such, any posts regarding a certain brand of header that is a stolen design from RENNTech will be deleted and certain members have already been given warnings and/or infractions.

This site will not allow the promotion of products at the expense of those that spent hard money and time to design something.

This message does not endorse the RT headers, but is a condemnation on those that are harming good verdors and the indutry as a whole.

Think about it - Do you have a fake Rolex? Do you sport fake Nike Jordan's and fake Ralph Loren or Ed Hardy cothes? Do you buy your wife/GF a fake LV purse? This is the same as supporting "fake" RENNTech headers (or any other REAL tuner for that matter).

thanks
Brad

jangy

You are missing my point altogether. I am glad OP thanked you but am curious to see if he is ultimately happy with the product when he has been fed +42whp. We all know that the reality shows on the track and that dynos are about as accurate as my guess. I don't think you are doctoring or lying. I think you have bought into the concept that shorties can even be compared to LTs WITH a custom tune. This is a topic that has been around and around many times so when you jump in and say things against reason it will get you lashed.

BTW, what tune did you run and what else was on the car when you gained +42whp?

skratch77

Ill be happy with 30,but Im hoping 40whp since the cars primary cats are gone.

how can a tiny log header with stock cats make 40whp and the mid length with cat delete make 25-30? either the dyno was messed up or the car put down very low numbers on the before dyno.

My car 100% stock put down 403whp,460whp with 180pulley and now its sitting at 420-30whp with stock pulley and tune.Dyno didnt record second pull and the 3rd pull made 420,so we guesed the car would of made 430 on the run that didnt get recorded

Ill be happying with 450whp on stock boost all day.

KLR CLS

Well my apologies if I took the "slimey" comment personally, but not sure how else to take it. I never once said shorties were superior or equal to long tubes, just that headers I installed on my car made 42whp before and after with no tune, nothing else. It happened, I was there. AF went up a point leaner with them on, so maybe that contriubuted. Just bolted on with new hardware. Also I don't understand your logic that the tool devised for measuring the force of torque at the wheels and providing the formulaic ouput in HP ( ie dyno) is not to be trusted, but track times which are subject to a hundred different factors are somehow the way to measure your power? So If I changed the air in my tires and ran in 30 degree cooler weather and bettered my ET by 3 tenths clearly that new tire air was worth a 30whp gain! We can discuss my experiences through PM if you lilke. I do not intend to break the promotion rules here anymore, but I also don't want people thinking I am either A: Disingenuous or B: Stupid.

MB_Forever

My post was deleted as well.... I didn't endorse any of the products. I was just asking him if he was really sure he gained the advertised gains and verified it by independent dynos, track results, etc....

jangy

Apology accepted and I was not directing my slimey comment at you. I believe that you believe in what you are saying. The concern I have is that I have seen DOZENS of various configurations and in all honesty, shorties without a tune give the absolute least gains. The best I have seen without a tune is 20whp and that because an 80mm TB was installed which also added 20hp. Since the kleemans cut out the primary cats, their gains of 30 - 40 are also reasonable. And then long tubes get about 50 with a good tune. I just don't see how you can believe that you seriously gained +42rwhp with a simple bolt on shorty. The tune is KEY!

shardul

iTrader: (1)

jangy quick question. would you by any chance know what elements of the tune a person alters when they tune car for after market headers. For exmaple with the addition of a pulley the tuner usually adds fuel.

KLR CLS

My car made an average of 406 (408 high, 403 low) whp stock and 443, and 448 on two sucessive pulls after my header install. With just headers, 185mm pulley and Eurocharged tune I made 500whp and 575 WTQ, up a total of 94whp and 123wtq with IAT's over 174 degrees. With cooler IAT's would be another 25whp easy.

Bramage

As the OP, I want to thank everyone for thier input. I had no clue there was an issue with one of the header options we have, but now I know. Based on all the feedback, I think the Short header will yeild somewhere around 20HP or better. that is an OK gain, and I do not have any misconceptions. If I got 42, and it was real.. cool. But regardless of my direction, I am not worried about that. In fact, I will get a stock baseline, throw on all the mods, (tune) and dyno again. then, Ill go to the track with my new set up and see what it does. Hopefully my tuner can make it all work...

I love the passion, but am upset someone was put on probabtion for sharing thier experienece. I am not sure there is any info on not discussing "BLM" headers, but i think I have the info I needed, and this can be closed. Thanks everyone!!



..

Bramage

I know nothing about tuning, however I think it all comes down to this:

Air Fuel Mixture
Timing

You tweek these based on the flow / capabilities of the engine, and optimize through the RPM range. So the answer if tuning just headers would probably just be mixture (Air / Fuel)

jangy

Keep in mind that these cars run fairly rich for protection. Adding headers will do a few things. One less backpressure when you are loading the chamber so you actually drop in boost. Also, now you have much higher velocity and volume of air flowing, so timing is also needed.

Now, we all know that you can try to squeeze every last ounce out by running a bit lean and advancing the timing BUT we all also know what can happen. To do it once to get great dyno numbers is fine but I stayed a little more conservative with mine.

pearlpower

Very impressive numbers. That is with stock cooling? Your brave.

KLR CLS

That was with HE and CM30 pump combo.

shardul

iTrader: (1)

thanks a lot jangy