Vath cooling mods
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Joined: Dec 2009
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From: Denver, CO
2008 CLS63 AMG
Vath cooling mods
Anyone using this set up? What do you guys think?
Here's the link to vath. http://www.vaeth.com/en/fuel-cooling-system.html
Here's the link to vath. http://www.vaeth.com/en/fuel-cooling-system.html
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From: Jacksonville, Florida
2006 E55 AMG --old cars -- E39 M5, 2.7tt Audi S4, E36 M3 **Ducati 996, 748
no - and skeptical -- under the hood and going into the combustion chamber - i cant see the fuel staying very cool before ignition
Save money for tires - or lighter wheels - for sure a fuel saver
Save money for tires - or lighter wheels - for sure a fuel saver
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Joined: Apr 2009
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From: Chicago suburbs
2004 E55 AMG
Principle
It is generally known, that the performance of an engine is much better in cooler weather conditions than in blistering heat. A similar behaviour can be observed with fuel. The efficiency of cooler fuel increases and reduces the engines fuel consumption.
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
The cooler the fuel is the more it will resist vaporization, which will DECREASE efficiency and INCREASE fuel consumption.
It is generally known, that the performance of an engine is much better in cooler weather conditions than in blistering heat. A similar behaviour can be observed with fuel. The efficiency of cooler fuel increases and reduces the engines fuel consumption.
NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
The cooler the fuel is the more it will resist vaporization, which will DECREASE efficiency and INCREASE fuel consumption.
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From: Houston/ Austin /Toronto / UAE / Minneapolis / Orlando /Cincinnati
Eurocharged Performance ML63 and TT lambo
doesn't do anything. I had cryogenic cooling on my C32 and only noticed a difference with spraying the heat exchanger, not the fuel.
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From: New Cumberland, PA
ML63
We used to use something called a cool can in drag racing it was basically a sealed can that had hard fuel line inside of it filled with water and ice in front of the radiator. and yes it did work and give HP gains the exact i don't remember. Do a google search for cool cans. I am making somthing like this for the H/E so I wont need a rear tank and can have everything up front with a split system and no extra weight or lines.
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From: PA
S600, GL450, GLC 43
First of all, IF it uses the A/C to cool it, ANY gains to be had would be GREATLY off set by the power consumed from the A/C compressor. Sorry guys, its the engineer in me that says NO FREE LUNCH.
Second the minuscule gains would not be properly adjusted for by the ECU, as it has NO way of detecting for colder fuel. Especially such a small change in the fuel temperature.
We used to use something called a cool can in drag racing it was basically a sealed can that had hard fuel line inside of it filled with water and ice in front of the radiator. and yes it did work and give HP gains the exact i don't remember. Do a google search for cool cans. I am making somthing like this for the H/E so I wont need a rear tank and can have everything up front with a split system and no extra weight or lines.
Note I said IF, because most old school drag cars were very seldom dynoed to show or be adjusted properly to realize ANY gain.
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From: PA
S600, GL450, GLC 43
I really love the tornado's claim of straightening out the airflow.
Tell that to a throttle body that is only half way open
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From: Long Island, NY
Whatever we're tuning!
The whole theory with cooling the fuel has more to do with the cooling of the combustion chamber and the air charge and not the density and combustibility of the cooler fuel. By cooling the chamber and air being used for combustion, you are creating an environment that will be less conducive to detonation and timing being pulled which is where you would lose power.
Comparing cryogenic spraying of a heat exchanger(the intercooler is the issue not the heat exchanger) with the properties associated with a fuel cooler shows your lack of understanding the dynamics involved. What does one have to do with the other?
Nice analogy!
Look at what they are doing in the NHRA and F1 regarding fuel cooling. They are actually setting rules to control this so they must be onto something.
Does it make power? Marginally yes but the advantage gained is to keep timing at a maximum level to create the most power in a safe, detonation-free environment.
3%-5% power increase...doubt it.
More sustained power and less chance of detonation.....ABSOLUTELY!
Comparing cryogenic spraying of a heat exchanger(the intercooler is the issue not the heat exchanger) with the properties associated with a fuel cooler shows your lack of understanding the dynamics involved. What does one have to do with the other?
Nice analogy! Look at what they are doing in the NHRA and F1 regarding fuel cooling. They are actually setting rules to control this so they must be onto something.
Does it make power? Marginally yes but the advantage gained is to keep timing at a maximum level to create the most power in a safe, detonation-free environment.
3%-5% power increase...doubt it.
More sustained power and less chance of detonation.....ABSOLUTELY!
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From: Chicago suburbs
2004 E55 AMG
The text I quoted said the following:
"The efficiency of cooler fuel increases and reduces the engines fuel consumption."
If there was some tiny power increase to be had(which I highly doubt you'll get just by slapping it on, tuning will be required to see any gains whatsoever) this hunk of crap will surely NOT result in INCREASED efficiency and LOWER fuel consumption. If anything it will decrease efficiency due to poor vaporization and a less homogenous mixture.
Edit: If you want to spend the time and expense hacking into your A/C system to install this gimmick, give the guys at Killer Chiller a call and see if they can do anything for you for some real gains. On an 85 degree day you can have 55 degree IC water ready to go just by cruising around.
"The efficiency of cooler fuel increases and reduces the engines fuel consumption."
If there was some tiny power increase to be had(which I highly doubt you'll get just by slapping it on, tuning will be required to see any gains whatsoever) this hunk of crap will surely NOT result in INCREASED efficiency and LOWER fuel consumption. If anything it will decrease efficiency due to poor vaporization and a less homogenous mixture.
Edit: If you want to spend the time and expense hacking into your A/C system to install this gimmick, give the guys at Killer Chiller a call and see if they can do anything for you for some real gains. On an 85 degree day you can have 55 degree IC water ready to go just by cruising around.
Last edited by izzyz28; Sep 1, 2010 at 08:59 PM.
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From: New Cumberland, PA
ML63
@MRAMG we did have a engine dyno and we were feed fuel to a Holley dominator then to holley pro injection. It made consitant power. System also used a Jacobs nitrous nanny so we were on the bottle. it also kept vapor lock down holley blue pump to a log that was cooled with 6 foot cool can. did it make power yes but those were different times no computer to move timing. the only down i see to this system is more pulling from the engines' power to try and make power.
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From: Houston/ Austin /Toronto / UAE / Minneapolis / Orlando /Cincinnati
Eurocharged Performance ML63 and TT lambo
there was a product called CryO2 that had various components to it. One of which was for the fuel, as well as intake chillers, and ended with a sprayer that hits the HE.
and when we ran it at the track IATs would drop by 15 degrees before run.
but, like I said, the fuel part of the system didn't do anything.
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G55 - R500
I used to race Formula cars two decades ago, and even back then we saw definite improvements with highly cooled fuel ( ~ -50C...). If I remember correctly it was something close to 10hp on a engine dyno on a air restricted 2l engine with very basic Bosch engine management back then.
But I belive there is a big difference in gains between a highly compressed NA engine and a FI engine. For the 55k there is prolly nothing to be gained from
But I belive there is a big difference in gains between a highly compressed NA engine and a FI engine. For the 55k there is prolly nothing to be gained from
Last edited by 07g55; Sep 2, 2010 at 02:30 AM.
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From: Long Island, NY
Whatever we're tuning!
oh I thats right you know everything bruce, forgot! and yes that was sarcasim
there was a product called CryO2 that had various components to it. One of which was for the fuel, as well as intake chillers, and ended with a sprayer that hits the HE.
and when we ran it at the track IATs would drop by 15 degrees before run.
but, like I said, the fuel part of the system didn't do anything.
there was a product called CryO2 that had various components to it. One of which was for the fuel, as well as intake chillers, and ended with a sprayer that hits the HE.
and when we ran it at the track IATs would drop by 15 degrees before run.
but, like I said, the fuel part of the system didn't do anything.
2)When you actually get out from behind the keyboard and do ANY type of hands-on mechanical work, your .02 will still be only worth .005!
3)To compare cryogenic cooling(CO2) with freon based cooling (R134a) is not a very good comparison. The R1134a is MUCH MORE efficient than CO2 so again NICE ANALOGY!
4)The point of my post was to explain that the fuel cooler would be advantageous to keep the combustion chamber cooler and to help cool the intake charge so there was less risk of detonation which you guys know all too well about, huh!
Less chance of detonation from (1)too high of a combustion chamber temperature caused by WAY TOO MUCH TIMING (28 degress was what you guys used) and (2)to limit timing being pulled because of the knock sensor hearing detonation (unless you max out the correction tables so no timing could be pulled which is EXACTLY what was done in LOCO's file) is what the fuel cooler would accomplish. Maybe you should have tried that!
5)Instead of wasting your time with CO2 all you had to do was use a small dry shot of NOS which is the best air intercooler but I am sure you already knew that with your extensive mechanical experience!
6)You did call me GOD in one of your replies but, while I did thank you, I could never match the ALMIGHTY's realm of knowledge but thanks anyway!
What was the reasoning behind your reply? To once again explain why something that you guys tried didn't work? You have quite a lot of those experiences don't you Jake?
Would you like me to list them? I do use a lot of DEI products so I am very aware of their CryO2 product but many people in the performance industry thought of it as cheap/inexpensive and not very efficient way to accomplish cooling the fuel and air which is why it wasn't a very successful product for them. You bought the hype though!
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2006 E55
Regardless of who started it or who's right and who's wrong...
Imho childish arguments and name calling between sponsors cheapens this forum and weakens both parties reputation.
Be civil and polite to everyone, stand by your work and let your satisfied customers defend you...
rant over/
Imho childish arguments and name calling between sponsors cheapens this forum and weakens both parties reputation.
Be civil and polite to everyone, stand by your work and let your satisfied customers defend you...
rant over/
Last edited by Worth the wait; Sep 2, 2010 at 02:14 PM.
