TTM Injector and Fuel Rail – 3rd Party Review!!
03-13-2011, 01:38 PM
#101
MBWorld Fanatic!
btw, would you be able/willing to make it exactly like this
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about injectors' choice, that's something secondary to me.
I had a look at the specs of these new design EV14 injectors that you are using but, frankly, there are a pair of values that are not convincing and, even if they are nice, I 'd still stick for ours or for SLR's.
also because what we already have is also really nice ! ... yes, our oem's are the previous EV6 design but they too are "dual spraying pattern" ( like SLR's).
maybe if, after the rail mod, one would really need a lot of gas, then the EV14 with pn 0280158123 (shown in the pdf previously posted) would also be good (but it flows more than all others) : it shares the same specs as our stockers, except for the larger "spray angle" at 25 degrees vs 15degrees and for being rotated out of axis like the one you are currently testing.. so, needs to be seen in practice if spray efficiency is compromised or not.
at least, it retains our oem Jetronic connector
but, again , what i like more is the rail job
Last edited by dyno; 03-13-2011 at 01:43 PM.
03-13-2011, 02:08 PM
#102
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Whatever we're tuning!
The TTM fuel rail was designed so you could still put your engine cover on and keep it looking as stock as possible. If you want the hard line used, for it to come up and over the supercharger, then I can do that.
As far as the injectors are concerned, you can reference parts numbers and injector design but until you have spent the time with the flow testing that we have conducted you are just using readily available info that you found and are trying to down play what we have developed as the only viable option and combination for the fuel starvation issues that are apparent in all M113k's with mods. You reference the degree of the spray pattern but don't reference the actual amount of fuel(percentage) within that pattern. That is what is the most important factor and not the degree.
FYI-
If you use just about any fuel injector recommendation formula you will see that a 600cc+ injector is recommended for a highly modified M113K.
As far as the injectors are concerned, you can reference parts numbers and injector design but until you have spent the time with the flow testing that we have conducted you are just using readily available info that you found and are trying to down play what we have developed as the only viable option and combination for the fuel starvation issues that are apparent in all M113k's with mods. You reference the degree of the spray pattern but don't reference the actual amount of fuel(percentage) within that pattern. That is what is the most important factor and not the degree.
FYI-
If you use just about any fuel injector recommendation formula you will see that a 600cc+ injector is recommended for a highly modified M113K.
03-13-2011, 03:00 PM
#103
MBWorld Fanatic!
I know, you already explained why you did the rail that way, but it's
a great news that you consider doing it SLR-like.
about injectors, first thing I know that your injectors do have the same 15degree spray angle as our stockers. So I was not arguing that parameter. 25 degree is the other injector that I mentioned.
The actual amount of fuel within a certain spray angle is also a value that's made available by Bosch tests.
There are other, more important parameters like the operating pressure for a certain injector and the way its sprying is rotated.
but really, I don't want to discuss these points also because, like any thing, it must then be tested in practice in a specific application.
from my point of view is just that, till there's no better evidence, the slr injector is the only one that keeps the original parameters concenring operating pressure, spray angle of the twin beam, whose orientation and bent angle match the design of the intake duct to our valve's openings.
What i hope is that you'll think at the SLR rail.
I think it deserves some deeper reasoning: for example, what implies the fact that we have a pressure regulator embedded into the fuel dleivery unit into the trunk ? this will not allow us to make the rail exactly like SLR with 2 pressure reg. connected to it .. or what options do we have ?
I would be interested.
ps: .. I know that recommended .6 value for BSFC .. but it's just an old rule of tumbs. during last 20-30 years the efficiency of internal combustion engine greatly improved ...
infact, SLR 722 outputs 650hp with just 480cc@3bar injectors .
a great news that you consider doing it SLR-like.
about injectors, first thing I know that your injectors do have the same 15degree spray angle as our stockers. So I was not arguing that parameter. 25 degree is the other injector that I mentioned.
The actual amount of fuel within a certain spray angle is also a value that's made available by Bosch tests.
There are other, more important parameters like the operating pressure for a certain injector and the way its sprying is rotated.
but really, I don't want to discuss these points also because, like any thing, it must then be tested in practice in a specific application.
from my point of view is just that, till there's no better evidence, the slr injector is the only one that keeps the original parameters concenring operating pressure, spray angle of the twin beam, whose orientation and bent angle match the design of the intake duct to our valve's openings.
What i hope is that you'll think at the SLR rail.
I think it deserves some deeper reasoning: for example, what implies the fact that we have a pressure regulator embedded into the fuel dleivery unit into the trunk ? this will not allow us to make the rail exactly like SLR with 2 pressure reg. connected to it .. or what options do we have ?
I would be interested.
ps: .. I know that recommended .6 value for BSFC .. but it's just an old rule of tumbs. during last 20-30 years the efficiency of internal combustion engine greatly improved ...
infact, SLR 722 outputs 650hp with just 480cc@3bar injectors .
The TTM fuel rail was designed so you could still put your engine cover on and keep it looking as stock as possible. If you want the hard line used, for it to come up and over the supercharger, then I can do that.
As far as the injectors are concerned, you can reference parts numbers and injector design but until you have spent the time with the flow testing that we have conducted you are just using readily available info that you found and are trying to down play what we have developed as the only viable option and combination for the fuel starvation issues that are apparent in all M113k's with mods. You reference the degree of the spray pattern but don't reference the actual amount of fuel(percentage) within that pattern. That is what is the most important factor and not the degree.
FYI-
If you use just about any fuel injector recommendation formula you will see that a 600cc+ injector is recommended for a highly modified M113K.
As far as the injectors are concerned, you can reference parts numbers and injector design but until you have spent the time with the flow testing that we have conducted you are just using readily available info that you found and are trying to down play what we have developed as the only viable option and combination for the fuel starvation issues that are apparent in all M113k's with mods. You reference the degree of the spray pattern but don't reference the actual amount of fuel(percentage) within that pattern. That is what is the most important factor and not the degree.
FYI-
If you use just about any fuel injector recommendation formula you will see that a 600cc+ injector is recommended for a highly modified M113K.
04-01-2011, 09:08 PM
#106
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2004 E55,1969 300SEL6.3,2011 ML350 BlueTec Diesel,2005 ML400 CDI
I know, you already explained why you did the rail that way, but it's
a great news that you consider doing it SLR-like.
about injectors, first thing I know that your injectors do have the same 15degree spray angle as our stockers. So I was not arguing that parameter. 25 degree is the other injector that I mentioned.
The actual amount of fuel within a certain spray angle is also a value that's made available by Bosch tests.
There are other, more important parameters like the operating pressure for a certain injector and the way its sprying is rotated.
but really, I don't want to discuss these points also because, like any thing, it must then be tested in practice in a specific application.
from my point of view is just that, till there's no better evidence, the slr injector is the only one that keeps the original parameters concenring operating pressure, spray angle of the twin beam, whose orientation and bent angle match the design of the intake duct to our valve's openings.
What i hope is that you'll think at the SLR rail.
I think it deserves some deeper reasoning: for example, what implies the fact that we have a pressure regulator embedded into the fuel dleivery unit into the trunk ? this will not allow us to make the rail exactly like SLR with 2 pressure reg. connected to it .. or what options do we have ?
I would be interested.
ps: .. I know that recommended .6 value for BSFC .. but it's just an old rule of tumbs. during last 20-30 years the efficiency of internal combustion engine greatly improved ...
infact, SLR 722 outputs 650hp with just 480cc@3bar injectors .
a great news that you consider doing it SLR-like.
about injectors, first thing I know that your injectors do have the same 15degree spray angle as our stockers. So I was not arguing that parameter. 25 degree is the other injector that I mentioned.
The actual amount of fuel within a certain spray angle is also a value that's made available by Bosch tests.
There are other, more important parameters like the operating pressure for a certain injector and the way its sprying is rotated.
but really, I don't want to discuss these points also because, like any thing, it must then be tested in practice in a specific application.
from my point of view is just that, till there's no better evidence, the slr injector is the only one that keeps the original parameters concenring operating pressure, spray angle of the twin beam, whose orientation and bent angle match the design of the intake duct to our valve's openings.
What i hope is that you'll think at the SLR rail.
I think it deserves some deeper reasoning: for example, what implies the fact that we have a pressure regulator embedded into the fuel dleivery unit into the trunk ? this will not allow us to make the rail exactly like SLR with 2 pressure reg. connected to it .. or what options do we have ?
I would be interested.
ps: .. I know that recommended .6 value for BSFC .. but it's just an old rule of tumbs. during last 20-30 years the efficiency of internal combustion engine greatly improved ...
infact, SLR 722 outputs 650hp with just 480cc@3bar injectors .
04-02-2011, 06:02 AM
#107
MBWorld Fanatic!
I had attempted to purchase SLR injectors in Germany about 2 years ago however, MB refused to sell them to me through my dealer friend because I did not own an SLR. I eventually purchased the SLR injectors through my US supplier. At that time I had already installed an AN fuel line connecting the front ends of the rail (ala SLR) and noticed no detectable difference. Once I screwed in the 6 port SLR injectors there was a noticeable improvement in response and improved smoothness. The butt dyno felt pretty good too.
good to know !
but, what mods/power was your car putting down .. and, no retune needed ?
04-02-2011, 11:35 AM
#109
Super Member
While I don't have TTM's upgraded fuel rail, I applied the technology to my setup and heres what I'm experiencing:
-both banks have near identical fuel trim values, whereas before they used to fluctuate significantly.
-LT fuel trims are now richer (was -1.5%, now -5.5%) which proves that fuel volume has been increased.
IMO, TTM's fuel rail upgrade is a must when running larger boost pulleys. Equalized fuel distribution = less chances of damaging pistons due to fuel deprivation.
I just go done repairing 2 cracked piston skirts and it wasn't cheap.
My intentions for posting are to help prevent others from incurring this costly repair.
-both banks have near identical fuel trim values, whereas before they used to fluctuate significantly.
-LT fuel trims are now richer (was -1.5%, now -5.5%) which proves that fuel volume has been increased.
IMO, TTM's fuel rail upgrade is a must when running larger boost pulleys. Equalized fuel distribution = less chances of damaging pistons due to fuel deprivation.
I just go done repairing 2 cracked piston skirts and it wasn't cheap.
My intentions for posting are to help prevent others from incurring this costly repair.
04-18-2011, 07:38 AM
#112
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2003 W211 E55, 2003 W220 S600
yes in fact i got the injectors and fuel rail installed last week. i had jerry flash the car for a total for 3 times in order to get the LTFT and AFR where i wanted them.
As per my wideband my AFRS were at 10.9 at 5k rpms in 3rd gear this was before the latest flash.
As per my wideband my AFRS were at 10.9 at 5k rpms in 3rd gear this was before the latest flash.
04-18-2011, 01:22 PM
#113
MBWorld Fanatic!
Nice! Let me know when you are done.....as I am riding your back, so to say. I have the fuel rail kit but will wait on the install.
04-18-2011, 01:41 PM
#114
04-18-2011, 10:56 PM
#115
MBWorld Fanatic!
01-03-2012, 01:10 PM
#118
MBWorld Fanatic!
I know, you already explained why you did the rail that way, but it's
a great news that you consider doing it SLR-like.
about injectors, first thing I know that your injectors do have the same 15degree spray angle as our stockers. So I was not arguing that parameter. 25 degree is the other injector that I mentioned.
The actual amount of fuel within a certain spray angle is also a value that's made available by Bosch tests.
There are other, more important parameters like the operating pressure for a certain injector and the way its sprying is rotated.
but really, I don't want to discuss these points also because, like any thing, it must then be tested in practice in a specific application.
from my point of view is just that, till there's no better evidence, the slr injector is the only one that keeps the original parameters concenring operating pressure, spray angle of the twin beam, whose orientation and bent angle match the design of the intake duct to our valve's openings.
What i hope is that you'll think at the SLR rail.
I think it deserves some deeper reasoning: for example, what implies the fact that we have a pressure regulator embedded into the fuel dleivery unit into the trunk ? this will not allow us to make the rail exactly like SLR with 2 pressure reg. connected to it .. or what options do we have ?
I would be interested.
ps: .. I know that recommended .6 value for BSFC .. but it's just an old rule of tumbs. during last 20-30 years the efficiency of internal combustion engine greatly improved ...
infact, SLR 722 outputs 650hp with just 480cc@3bar injectors .
a great news that you consider doing it SLR-like.
about injectors, first thing I know that your injectors do have the same 15degree spray angle as our stockers. So I was not arguing that parameter. 25 degree is the other injector that I mentioned.
The actual amount of fuel within a certain spray angle is also a value that's made available by Bosch tests.
There are other, more important parameters like the operating pressure for a certain injector and the way its sprying is rotated.
but really, I don't want to discuss these points also because, like any thing, it must then be tested in practice in a specific application.
from my point of view is just that, till there's no better evidence, the slr injector is the only one that keeps the original parameters concenring operating pressure, spray angle of the twin beam, whose orientation and bent angle match the design of the intake duct to our valve's openings.
What i hope is that you'll think at the SLR rail.
I think it deserves some deeper reasoning: for example, what implies the fact that we have a pressure regulator embedded into the fuel dleivery unit into the trunk ? this will not allow us to make the rail exactly like SLR with 2 pressure reg. connected to it .. or what options do we have ?
I would be interested.
ps: .. I know that recommended .6 value for BSFC .. but it's just an old rule of tumbs. during last 20-30 years the efficiency of internal combustion engine greatly improved ...
infact, SLR 722 outputs 650hp with just 480cc@3bar injectors .
01-03-2012, 01:36 PM
#119
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Whatever we're tuning!
i like your reasoning Dyno. i see that you actually reviewed the documentation from Bosch and can prove that the regular injectors or the SLR ones, are all that's needed, nothing fancy is required like TTM keeps saying. The extensive flow testing that TTM keeps bringing up doesn't really hold any weight here, since I will take word from Bosch before I will listen to any tuner trying to push their product.
It is a viable option and, if it isn't for you, then why are you posting about it?
The TTM Injector and Fuel Rail Kit has proven itself with REAL WORLD data from multiple tuners and the track numbers speak for themselves.
This kit helps to correct the real issue with the fuel delivery system design with the M113k engines plus it has proven to make power. What more can you ask for. I developed the kit for the cars that I have personally built and, if members see the benefits, then they have an option to help preserve their engines.
PS Thank you for bumping the thread too!
01-03-2012, 01:40 PM
#120
MBWorld Fanatic!
i didn't say there's no benefit from going to larger injectors and modifying the fuel rail, clearly that's needed since the SLR utilizes a modified rail and larger injectors. all i'm saying is that anyone can purchase these injectors directly from Bosch and get their own fuel rail modified for a fraction of the cost of the TTM kit. there's nothing special about the TTM injectors from what I understand. They are regular EV14 Bosch injectors with part numbers removed
01-03-2012, 01:49 PM
#121
MBWorld Fanatic!
i didn't say there's no benefit from going to larger injectors and modifying the fuel rail, clearly that's needed since the SLR utilizes a modified rail and larger injectors. all i'm saying is that anyone can purchase these injectors directly from Bosch and get their own fuel rail modified for a fraction of the cost of the TTM kit. there's nothing special about the TTM injectors from what I understand. They are regular EV14 Bosch injectors with part numbers removed
Bruce's package is a no brainer, it just works. I have an entire race fab shop at my disposal and it's not worth my time and effort to save $200 when I can get Bruces kit and know that it's going to work when I install it
01-03-2012, 02:02 PM
#122
MBWorld Fanatic!
well from my calculations you are saving a bit more than $200.
a new fuel rail is $157.50, two fittings, two 90 deg connectors and some SS braided fuel line is going to be around $100. injector price is questionable, but around $100/piece on the high side. so in total you're saving about $500
a new fuel rail is $157.50, two fittings, two 90 deg connectors and some SS braided fuel line is going to be around $100. injector price is questionable, but around $100/piece on the high side. so in total you're saving about $500
01-03-2012, 02:05 PM
#123
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Dirt Scooters
Not to throw fuel into the fire but i asked Bruce about getting just the rail by itself and never got an answer and made a post on the thread that he skipped right over. Obviously it was because i didnt want to spend $1600 on a rail and injectors that are nothing more than bosch ev14 injectors for a GT500 and a stock rail that has the ends cut off and -8 bungs,fittings and line put onto. I'm not saying his product is bad or dosent work because it obviously does but the price that people are paying is just wrong. After being ignored by Bruce i had my own rail made last week for $551 INCLUDING a new fuel rail,the same injectors,russel fittings and braided line. I'm just not down for the crazy mercedes tax people try to charge.
01-03-2012, 04:01 PM
#125
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Dirt Scooters
these injectors look mighty similar to the TTM ones....
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1661
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1661
