jwoodcl55

Is there a market for used m113k motors in need of rebuilding? Now I'm wondering.....

benz_addict

This is bull**** I'm sick of seeing cyl 8 failures. They all seem to happen with the 180ASP pulley. To the OP sorry to hear about your mishap hopefully you can work it out quickly. Been there and done that man if you need any info or help PM me.
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...k-stomach.html

GT-ER

I know, you have to deal with the manifolds anyways so the header install is a piece of cake with the engine out. I just hate the fact how shops charge you $2000 for an engine swap that they'd do for $1000 if you had a Chevy.

Regardless, $2K sounds reasonable enough.

TheVazha

Guys please help me understand!

I get that the enormous amounts of heat can melt pistons. So larger pulley>more boost>more heat= problems.

Questions:

1. How and why does cylinder 8 fail?

2. Does pulley "brand" matter or is it the size?

3. Does upgrading your HE remove a little bit of the risk of this happening or does it just ensure you run more consistently (IAT down)?

4. I have a 180mm pulley and no cooling mods. Can I drive from LA to Vegas later this month?

Thanks!

benz_addict

All I can say is get some cooling mods asap. 180mm and cooling go hand in hand I would also say bigger injectors too

GT-ER

Yeah, I think my next mod will be injectors and a dyno tune. Also a fuel pressure gauge to see how the pressure holds up.

Shifter

So was this another cyl 8 piston failure?

Quadcammer

my good lord, reading this thread is like watching a monkey ****ing a football.

There is so much bull**** and misinformation its hateful.

and LOL at the guy who thinks plastigauge is the way to go thinking rebuilding an engine is easy.

Quadcammer

For some reason, mercedes tuners seem to be lazy and or not terribly skilled.

The proper way to develop tunes for modified cars is to put egt probes in each cylinder header tube to figure out if any cylinders run leaner or hotter than others.

From what I've seen from powerful supercharged V8s, the routing of the fuel rails can cause certain cylinders to lean out, as can intake design (although thats less of a problem with a pos. displacement blower). Also, depending on how the coolant flows and how it is routed back to the radiator can have a big effect on heat in certain cylinders.

For example, on modular mustang Cobra DOHC V8s, the coolant would dead end on cylinders 7 and 8 because there wasn't a direct route back to the heater core in that case. So, the fix for that was a kit that removed a freeze plug, and added a fitting and tubing to the heater core. This causes much more even cylinder cooling, and a lesser chance of detonation.

GT-ER

I'm sorry, I guess manufacturers are idiots too since they promote the use of plastiguage as well. You must be an AMG God or something, can you rebuild the engine with your mind?

Didn't we already have this conversation? Since you obviously think I'm an idiot, why not post some actual info that may be helpful for the OP. I'm guessing it'll go like this:

"take out your check book, fill out a new check but leave the amount blank, then just hand it over to the MB dealer and your car will come out running perfectly in no time".

I can't stand people like you who think everything in an AMG engine must be done with an electron microscope and with Steven Hawking helping you to build it. Guess what? I'm the guy who got flamed for cutting into my crank shaft with a dremel to put a long key since I sheared my oem one ( which I didn't fix and it's still screwed up ) and put a wobbly 180mm pulley on. And guess what? IT STILL WORKS PERFECTLY!

GT-ER

It could be because they aren't Gods like you are. Just a guess.

Seriously? Is this your suggestion? You do know he doesn't own a Formula 1 correct? How many people even tune to this extreme on a regular street car?

jwoodcl55

Interesting because the guy I am 99% sure I'm purchasing my engine from is building/tuning his E55 that exact way, egt probes in all eight of his MBH long tubes...

"going to be a head turner"

GT-ER

And he will probably have a whole 10hp more than someone who tunes their car on a dyno with a single wideband and EGT probe and just doesn't get greedy.

chiromikey

i don't think it's about the hp as much as it is about the information gained...

220S

+1
I think that's the main point.

As far as plastigauge, debating its accuracy is as old as the hills. The only real reason it's used is primarily because people don't want to spend the money on a set of mics.

GM may say it's okay to use in their workshop manuals, but that doesn't mean they don't use micrometers either. Plastigauge can be a good measuring tool as a back up but most serious engine builders don't rely on it 100%. It's good for double checks in certain applications. And plastigauge is only as accurate as the person measuring it, a dial gauge is more easily read. Plastigauge is better than nothing obviously.

I know one of the top Porsche engine builders (he's in Torrance CA) and he uses mics, so to say that the "industry uses plastigauge" is a bit misleading. Maybe "sometimes uses it in conjunction" is the better way of saying it.

fwiw, here's a 2-year old article on "how accurate is plastigauge?" http://www.carcraft.com/techfaq/116_...ter/index.html

"It's a tough call. If you only plan on ever building one or two engines in your life, it's difficult to justify spending big dollars on specialty engine tools like a micrometer and a dial-bore gauge. But the truth of the matter is that if you spend the coin on the right parts, it just isn't worth it to risk not accurately measuring clearances. Many car crafters still rely on the trusty old Plastigage to keep them out of trouble, but just how accurate is this simple little tool? We wanted to find out."

"After we torqued the rod cap and then removed it, we used the Plastigage package to compare its width to a particular clearance. While our careful mic measurements indicated a clearance of 0.0031 inch, the Plastigage indicated a much tighter 0.0015-inch clearance-or roughly half of what we mic'd. We double-checked our measurements, but the results were within 0.0001 inch."

Worth the wait

Information, which in this case, would have saved the op A LOT of money.

GT-ER

It's useless to argue. You can use whatever you want. I'm not saying it's more accurate than a bore gauge, I'm saying it's accurate enough that GM, Nissan and some other companies are okay with it. Heck, if you really want to be accurate, why not just measure it on an electron level with a laser?

Regardless, you can use whatever you want. I'll use whatever I want. It's worked flawlessly for me for years and on many builds. I have yet to have an engine failure that wasn't due to excess power. I also don't believe in taking out a blank check and having it solve all my problems.

We are off topic once again. Sorry OP, I'll end it.

Quadcammer

No, I'm not a fan of just handing a blank check to the dealer. I'm also not a fan of short cuts, "good enough" measuring with plastigauge, and some guy who slaps parts together and says building an engine is "easy".

In fact, building an engine properly, including measuring all necessary parts with the correct tools takes skill. Just about anybody could take the parts and bolt them together if I gave them a list of what to do, but thats not exactly doing it right.

As for AMG engines, I'm actually on the other end of that spectrum. I don't think there is anything particularly special about them. However, with the exception of maybe a plain old small black chevy, I would use the correct tools and a "clean room atmosphere" to assemble the engine...from a honda 4 banger to a ferrari v12.

as for your crank snout...it will work perfectly until it doesn't. Then when it takes a chunk out of the crank, you'll be screwed. You didn't have much choice, but don't pretend that your solution is a great one.

These two posts singlehandily show how little you know about performance tuning. Its not about 10 hp or getting greedy, its about knowing whats going on in the cylinders.

I don't think there is an engine on the planet in which each cylinder performs exactly the same.

Had tuners used the 8 egt probes, they would have seen that the number 8 cylinder probably runs leaner or hotter than the others. Then what you do is tune for the most dangerous cylinder. While race cars have the ability to adjust a/f for each cylinder, on a street car, you create a margin for error by adding enough fuel and retarding timing to the point where your most dangerous cylinder is still ok.

By using a single wideband or EGT, you simply wouldn't have a clue.


100% correct

read the same article. We had three guys in a shop and each one came up with a different figure while reading a plastigauged main bearing.

jpohl402

gosh thats terrible
I have heard multiple stories of pullies fukking up....

forcedE55

Less arguing guys...lets get back on topic with solving this cyl 8 problem. His car was tuned extremely rich, the failure of cyl 8 should have never occurred. My turbo lexus and twin turbo RX-7 were all tuned in the 12 range and never had any problems with heat soaked detonation and both cars ran extremely hot with crazy amounts of boost. I understand the E55 can run hot and are more prone to detonation but a car that is tuned in the 11 to 10 AF range should never detonate unless it's just to much heat build up for these cars at the boost level of the 180 in certain hot weather situation. I think we all need to look at what mods are on most of these cyl 8 failures and who is tuning them? If all cyl 8 failures have the same mods by the same tuner then we have a problem! (Perhaps a 180 new thread with mods and how long you have had the car would be a good start) We all should also look at cars successfully running with 180 setup and compare. perhaps adding a meth kit for extra added cooling would help at higher boost levels of 180 or greater. There is a reason why Cyl 8 are failing....it would be foolish to continue letting this problem occur time after time. One or two fails no problem but having a hand full of cyl 8 failures is just not right.

TTMotorsports

It never ceases to amaze me at the misinformation that is spewed in the many technical threads that are started. I understand forums are used to share information but how does incorrect information help anyone?

THE #8 CYLINDER ISSUE IS A FUEL STARVATION ISSUE!!

It has very little to do with the tunes since the major players that are writing these files have done so for quite few years. This topic has been covered over and over but it was always about blaming the tuner when, in reality, it was a fuel delivery issue. More to do with volume in the rail and not pressure.

As Oliverk stated, the only way to be able to see this issue would be to install EGT probes in each primary and see how the #8 cylinder temp is greater than every other cylinder.

Even if you did have long tubes installed you would have eventually had the same failure. There is only 1 proven solution to this issue and it has worked flawlessly since it has been on the market.

High speed runs through 3rd gear and deep into 4th(where the transmission is 1:1) are very high load situations and, if done repeatedly, will cause this failure.

forcedE55

THE #8 CYLINDER ISSUE IS A FUEL STARVATION ISSUE!!

It has very little to do with the tunes since the major players that are writing these files have done so for quite few years. This topic has been covered over and over but it was always about blaming the tuner when, in reality, it was a fuel delivery issue. More to do with volume in the rail and not pressure.

As Oliverk stated, the only way to be able to see this issue would be to install EGT probes in each primary and see how the #8 cylinder temp is greater than every other cylinder.

Even if you did have long tubes installed you would have eventually had the same failure. There is only 1 proven solution to this issue and it has worked flawlessly since it has been on the market.

High speed runs through 3rd gear and deep into 4th(where the transmission is 1:1) are very high load situations and, if done repeatedly, will cause this failure.[/QUOTE]

what is your one solution?

cahiil55k

Don't mind OllieK. He's clearly the MBWorld hypocrite, forum nanny, resident internet LEO, the know-it-all who doesn't even own the cars that he knows so much about (C63's, E55's, etc). Just post a race story or fun drive story and watch how fast he goes into internet LEO mode. Yet he gets a tune for his S500 just to remove the speed limiter. I'm sure he drives down to the Texas mile to make use of the tune - god forbid he breaks 150 on city streets and highways. Hypocrisy at its best:

cahiil55k

TTM injectors and fuel rail of course!

Quadcammer

No.

Running from the police and speeding are two very different things. Also, I don't whine when I get pulled over for breaking the law. If I were to whine about it, your point about hypocrisy would hold some water.

I like to drive fast, the S500 has a stupid 130mph speed limiter. I don't run from cops, and I accept the consequences of my actions.

the funniest part about your whole post is that I know more about the cars in question then the people who own them.