After pinning, dyno tune, driving 100 miles, new look at the 195mm RTR pulley wobble
04-17-2012, 02:29 PM
#51
MBWorld Fanatic!
Wobble in it's self isn't a big issue unless it's a huge amount. In Hawkins case, it's enough to hit the water pump pulley. This obviously won't work. I would just swap in a smaller pulley and live with the wobble. My car has had wobble for over a year and it's been fine. I also race it almost daily.
PS: A LITTLE wobble, aka a little runout, will not hurt you, but SERIOUS wobble will kill you
Last edited by MRAMG1; 04-17-2012 at 03:06 PM.
04-17-2012, 02:41 PM
#52
Out Of Control!!
Wobble in it's self isn't a big issue unless it's a huge amount. In Hawkins case, it's enough to hit the water pump pulley. This obviously won't work. I would just swap in a smaller pulley and live with the wobble. My car has had wobble for over a year and it's been fine. I also race it almost daily.
The big rtr pulley has veryyyy little space between the water pump pulley and the outer ring of the crank pulley. Its actually one of the first things I noticed. And I even said if there's any wobble they will make contact. I saw Steve car first hand at the track and it was bad. Like really really bad. Sucks cuz he was going to crush the record.
04-17-2012, 03:05 PM
#53
MBWorld Fanatic!
ummm what? Wobble isn't an issue??? Do you know how much stress that puts on your crank and in turn your engine internals? Great advice, I guess you don't like your engine very much.
The big rtr pulley has veryyyy little space between the water pump pulley and the outer ring of the crank pulley. Its actually one of the first things I noticed. And I even said if there's any wobble they will make contact. I saw Steve car first hand at the track and it was bad. Like really really bad. Sucks cuz he was going to crush the record.
The big rtr pulley has veryyyy little space between the water pump pulley and the outer ring of the crank pulley. Its actually one of the first things I noticed. And I even said if there's any wobble they will make contact. I saw Steve car first hand at the track and it was bad. Like really really bad. Sucks cuz he was going to crush the record.
Wobble is ALWAYS bad, what I was stating above is a little run out. I have seen STOCK Ford, GM, and BMW's have a little runout, aka they look like they are out of round under a strobe light, or even visisual.
But WOBBLE will kill your engine ASAFP
04-17-2012, 03:25 PM
#54
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
There is enough evidence here for the members to form their own opinions, and I am not talking for Steve, but I will not be posting much more in this thread right now. All I will say is that my car is going back to BIP in a day or so, and have the pulley taken off again to have everything inspected.
Last edited by chawkins2001; 04-17-2012 at 04:35 PM.
04-17-2012, 03:44 PM
#55
All I will say is that my car is going back to BIP in a day or so, and have the pulley taken off again to have everything inspected. At that point we will contact RTR, let them know the extent of my damage, and give them the opportinuty to step up to the plate and make things right.
I'm just saying if you want to bolster your claim against the part supplier, I would have someone other than BIP do the forensic work, since it's already foregone conclusion what BIP will determine. Not trying to be contrarian, and I know you're a big BIP true believer, but you'll be much better off in the long run having two unrelated sets of "experts" saying it's a product issue, not just the one that may or may not have mucked up the original install and caused issues as PTE has suggested elsewhere. Regardless of where the fault lies, it's a shame that doing pullies continues to create costly disasters for owners.
Last edited by komp55; 04-17-2012 at 04:13 PM.
04-17-2012, 04:07 PM
#56
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Dirt Scooters
Sorry to hear guys,I hope you can get the cars back together without having to spend to much into swapping a crank in.I think gtr did some type of crank modding to get his pulley back on without a keyway and Im sure that can be done on yours also.
I would saggest a pulley like pte has,like mine and like most tuners like renntech,kleemann,brabus etc use a stock oem pulley and press fit a outer ring on without welds that could throw the ballance off.
I went threw the wobbling pulleys and the stress you get thinking you can damage the engine is not worth the 300-400 in savings.
I will have a oem 180 for sale soon if I can get some time to install the stock pulley on my car and if you need a stock pulley to get a outer ring press fitted on I have a few of those also.
I would saggest a pulley like pte has,like mine and like most tuners like renntech,kleemann,brabus etc use a stock oem pulley and press fit a outer ring on without welds that could throw the ballance off.
I went threw the wobbling pulleys and the stress you get thinking you can damage the engine is not worth the 300-400 in savings.
I will have a oem 180 for sale soon if I can get some time to install the stock pulley on my car and if you need a stock pulley to get a outer ring press fitted on I have a few of those also.
Sent you a message
04-17-2012, 04:24 PM
#57
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
You might want to consider having an independent, third-party shop do the inspection / diagnosis because BIP has a massive conflict of interest in this situation. There's no persuasive evidence BIP didn't botch the first install based on your prior Board postings about the difficulties you've had with this upgrade path. If this Board has collectively learned one thing about pulley mishaps over the years, the first people always to deny any responsibility whatsoever will be the installers.
I'm just saying if you want to bolster your claim against the part supplier, I would have someone other than BIP do the forensic work, since it's already foregone conclusion what BIP will determine. Not trying to be contrarian, and I know you're a big BIP true believer, but you'll be much better off in the long run having two unrelated sets of "experts" saying it's a product issue, not just the one that may or may not have mucked up the original install and caused issues as PTE has suggested elsewhere. Regardless of where the fault lies, it's a shame that doing pullies continues to create costly disasters for owners.
I'm just saying if you want to bolster your claim against the part supplier, I would have someone other than BIP do the forensic work, since it's already foregone conclusion what BIP will determine. Not trying to be contrarian, and I know you're a big BIP true believer, but you'll be much better off in the long run having two unrelated sets of "experts" saying it's a product issue, not just the one that may or may not have mucked up the original install and caused issues as PTE has suggested elsewhere. Regardless of where the fault lies, it's a shame that doing pullies continues to create costly disasters for owners.
First time, belt slipped, pulley wobbled, threw the belt and spun on my crank shaft. Second time, same thing happened to Steve, pulley had a slight wobble and started scuffing the WP pulley, he was told this is ok, so he continued to drive the car and went to MIR, belt was thrown, violent wobble of crank pulley, and it spun on the shaft, toasted crank. Third time, my second RTR pulley was straight after install at idle, dyno time and 100 miles of street driving, the crank pulley is now wobbling and scuffing the WP pulley. You see a trend here homey, you telling me that BIP installed my RTR pulley incorrectly twice, and Steves shop in Nova installed his RTR pulley incorrectly too
I dont buy it
Last edited by chawkins2001; 04-17-2012 at 04:32 PM.
04-17-2012, 05:16 PM
#60
You're too close and invested in this to be entirely objective. That's why you needed some impartial advice about the best way to document your claim for product liability. Since the advice was free, you don't need to buy it (or use it) anyway. But if this situation ever gets to the level of an actual legal dispute, you don't want the expert on your side to be laughably conflicted regarding the outcome. The triers of fact are usually pretty good at considering the sources. I hope this gets sorted out to everyone's satisfaction.
04-17-2012, 05:41 PM
#62
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2006 SL55
Should owners of other RTR pullies be worried? I ordered an ASP from EC, but received an RTR pulley instead. It's only 180 but seeing how much potential for damage is involved I'm beginning to wonder if I should risk running it? Anyone had issue good/bad with other sized pullies?
04-17-2012, 06:11 PM
#63
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Modded CL65
Thanks for the suggestion and it makes sense. If the exact samething happens twice, actually three times, it is not installer error man.
First time, belt slipped, pulley wobbled, threw the belt and spun on my crank shaft. Second time, same thing happened to Steve, pulley had a slight wobble and started scuffing the WP pulley, he was told this is ok, so he continued to drive the car and went to MIR, belt was thrown, violent wobble of crank pulley, and it spun on the shaft, toasted crank. Third time, my second RTR pulley was straight after install at idle, dyno time and 100 miles of street driving, the crank pulley is now wobbling and scuffing the WP pulley. You see a trend here homey, you telling me that BIP installed my RTR pulley incorrectly twice, and Steves shop in Nova installed his RTR pulley incorrectly too
I dont buy it
First time, belt slipped, pulley wobbled, threw the belt and spun on my crank shaft. Second time, same thing happened to Steve, pulley had a slight wobble and started scuffing the WP pulley, he was told this is ok, so he continued to drive the car and went to MIR, belt was thrown, violent wobble of crank pulley, and it spun on the shaft, toasted crank. Third time, my second RTR pulley was straight after install at idle, dyno time and 100 miles of street driving, the crank pulley is now wobbling and scuffing the WP pulley. You see a trend here homey, you telling me that BIP installed my RTR pulley incorrectly twice, and Steves shop in Nova installed his RTR pulley incorrectly too
I dont buy it
Craig, you know im in the area I'd be more than happy to take a look at it for you if you'd like. Not saying anything was installed wrong but i'll shoot you straight.
04-17-2012, 08:35 PM
#64
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S55
There is so much misinformation being spred about this entire situation, that I felt compelled to say a few things. I have known Exotic for a very long time- throughout the years of forum posting when most of you weren't even in diapers. He is bar none one of the most respected people in the performance industry. Period. Every major forum knows who he is, and he is always one of the first people to raise the technical level and be willing to spread his knowledge and information to any one who asks. This forum was pathetic in the sharing of info before he bucked the trend. Everyone knows Shardul is also a stand up guy, enough that the opposition to his treatment on this board created such an outcry that the mods had to retreat, reinstate and do major damage control. Can't say that would happen for many other members, so to even implicate that they should in anyway be responsible for this is disgusting.
It is ludicrous that people have the audacity to say that they need to step it up. This is racing - and a racing industry. Things break, cars break, and peoples egos break. It sucks. But to brandish a pulley as causing the fault of these failures is fine if that has been proven, but to date that is not the case.
First of all - Chawkins - your "first" pulley failure was pretty well documented that the installer missed the keyway - causing the pulley to spin off. Clearly, there was damage done enough that you drilled and modified your "second" pulley- in essence - rigging it. Your installers should have pulled it apart and inspected it before another pulley was put on.
First time, belt slipped, pulley wobbled, threw the belt and spun on my crank shaft. Second time, same thing happened to Steve, pulley had a slight wobble and started scuffing the WP pulley, he was told this is ok, so he continued to drive the car and went to MIR, belt was thrown, violent wobble of crank pulley, and it spun on the shaft, toasted crank. Third time, my second RTR pulley was straight after install at idle, dyno time and 100 miles of street driving, the crank pulley is now wobbling and scuffing the WP pulley. You see a trend here homey, you telling me that BIP installed my RTR pulley incorrectly twice, and Steves shop in Nova installed his RTR pulley incorrectly too
I dont buy it
You should not buy it - because that version of the story is not exactly accurate. Blending your story with Steve's is a stretch.
People refer to this pulley as a bolt on design - but EVERY pulley is a bolt on design. It is the crank bolt that is at issue here, not the ring bolts. Were new bolts used on every install? Did anyone check that the crank bolt was still tightened to the proper torque? Clearly not, if the crank bolts are backing out and then a pulley is backing off, wobbling, spinning or coming off -then no one is checking these things. These are torque to yield bolts and require very precise installation, over tightening or under tightening (easy to do) can ruin the bolts purpose. What tools or methods were used to do the install? Poor tools, like strap wrenches can cause major issues as well. So there is alot of additional information that needs to be forthcoming to make your accusations and wrants even partially justifiable.
These are aftermarket parts- used on cars with the sole intent of gaining more horsepower or racing, look on every forum, people race, people break, but they don't whine and cry and expect the world to replace their stuff for free. Grow up - it's racing - there's no warranty for that. Seriously- if your lugnuts come loose and your wheel flies off are you going after the wheel company?
It is ludicrous that people have the audacity to say that they need to step it up. This is racing - and a racing industry. Things break, cars break, and peoples egos break. It sucks. But to brandish a pulley as causing the fault of these failures is fine if that has been proven, but to date that is not the case.
There is enough evidence here for the members to form their own opinions, and I am not talking for Steve, but I will not be posting much more in this thread right now. All I will say is that my car is going back to BIP in a day or so, and have the pulley taken off again to have everything inspected.
First of all - Chawkins - your "first" pulley failure was pretty well documented that the installer missed the keyway - causing the pulley to spin off. Clearly, there was damage done enough that you drilled and modified your "second" pulley- in essence - rigging it. Your installers should have pulled it apart and inspected it before another pulley was put on.
First time, belt slipped, pulley wobbled, threw the belt and spun on my crank shaft. Second time, same thing happened to Steve, pulley had a slight wobble and started scuffing the WP pulley, he was told this is ok, so he continued to drive the car and went to MIR, belt was thrown, violent wobble of crank pulley, and it spun on the shaft, toasted crank. Third time, my second RTR pulley was straight after install at idle, dyno time and 100 miles of street driving, the crank pulley is now wobbling and scuffing the WP pulley. You see a trend here homey, you telling me that BIP installed my RTR pulley incorrectly twice, and Steves shop in Nova installed his RTR pulley incorrectly too
I dont buy it
People refer to this pulley as a bolt on design - but EVERY pulley is a bolt on design. It is the crank bolt that is at issue here, not the ring bolts. Were new bolts used on every install? Did anyone check that the crank bolt was still tightened to the proper torque? Clearly not, if the crank bolts are backing out and then a pulley is backing off, wobbling, spinning or coming off -then no one is checking these things. These are torque to yield bolts and require very precise installation, over tightening or under tightening (easy to do) can ruin the bolts purpose. What tools or methods were used to do the install? Poor tools, like strap wrenches can cause major issues as well. So there is alot of additional information that needs to be forthcoming to make your accusations and wrants even partially justifiable.
These are aftermarket parts- used on cars with the sole intent of gaining more horsepower or racing, look on every forum, people race, people break, but they don't whine and cry and expect the world to replace their stuff for free. Grow up - it's racing - there's no warranty for that. Seriously- if your lugnuts come loose and your wheel flies off are you going after the wheel company?
04-17-2012, 09:02 PM
#66
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3-five-five/ TUNDRA/ 07 997 cab
There is so much misinformation being spred about this entire situation, that I felt compelled to say a few things. I have known Exotic for a very long time- throughout the years of forum posting when most of you weren't even in diapers. He is bar none one of the most respected people in the performance industry. Period. Every major forum knows who he is, and he is always one of the first people to raise the technical level and be willing to spread his knowledge and information to any one who asks. This forum was pathetic in the sharing of info before he bucked the trend. Everyone knows Shardul is also a stand up guy, enough that the opposition to his treatment on this board created such an outcry that the mods had to retreat, reinstate and do major damage control. Can't say that would happen for many other members, so to even implicate that they should in anyway be responsible for this is disgusting.
It is ludicrous that people have the audacity to say that they need to step it up. This is racing - and a racing industry. Things break, cars break, and peoples egos break. It sucks. But to brandish a pulley as causing the fault of these failures is fine if that has been proven, but to date that is not the case.
First of all - Chawkins - your "first" pulley failure was pretty well documented that the installer missed the keyway - causing the pulley to spin off. Clearly, there was damage done enough that you drilled and modified your "second" pulley- in essence - rigging it. Your installers should have pulled it apart and inspected it before another pulley was put on.
You should not buy it - because that version of the story is not exactly accurate. Blending your story with Steve's is a stretch.
People refer to this pulley as a bolt on design - but EVERY pulley is a bolt on design. It is the crank bolt that is at issue here, not the ring bolts. Were new bolts used on every install? Did anyone check that the crank bolt was still tightened to the proper torque? Clearly not, if the crank bolts are backing out and then a pulley is backing off, wobbling, spinning or coming off -then no one is checking these things. These are torque to yield bolts and require very precise installation, over tightening or under tightening (easy to do) can ruin the bolts purpose. What tools or methods were used to do the install? Poor tools, like strap wrenches can cause major issues as well. So there is alot of additional information that needs to be forthcoming to make your accusations and wrants even partially justifiable.
These are aftermarket parts- used on cars with the sole intent of gaining more horsepower or racing, look on every forum, people race, people break, but they don't whine and cry and expect the world to replace their stuff for free. Grow up - it's racing - there's no warranty for that. Seriously- if your lugnuts come loose and your wheel flies off are you going after the wheel company?
It is ludicrous that people have the audacity to say that they need to step it up. This is racing - and a racing industry. Things break, cars break, and peoples egos break. It sucks. But to brandish a pulley as causing the fault of these failures is fine if that has been proven, but to date that is not the case.
First of all - Chawkins - your "first" pulley failure was pretty well documented that the installer missed the keyway - causing the pulley to spin off. Clearly, there was damage done enough that you drilled and modified your "second" pulley- in essence - rigging it. Your installers should have pulled it apart and inspected it before another pulley was put on.
You should not buy it - because that version of the story is not exactly accurate. Blending your story with Steve's is a stretch.
People refer to this pulley as a bolt on design - but EVERY pulley is a bolt on design. It is the crank bolt that is at issue here, not the ring bolts. Were new bolts used on every install? Did anyone check that the crank bolt was still tightened to the proper torque? Clearly not, if the crank bolts are backing out and then a pulley is backing off, wobbling, spinning or coming off -then no one is checking these things. These are torque to yield bolts and require very precise installation, over tightening or under tightening (easy to do) can ruin the bolts purpose. What tools or methods were used to do the install? Poor tools, like strap wrenches can cause major issues as well. So there is alot of additional information that needs to be forthcoming to make your accusations and wrants even partially justifiable.
These are aftermarket parts- used on cars with the sole intent of gaining more horsepower or racing, look on every forum, people race, people break, but they don't whine and cry and expect the world to replace their stuff for free. Grow up - it's racing - there's no warranty for that. Seriously- if your lugnuts come loose and your wheel flies off are you going after the wheel company?
04-17-2012, 09:09 PM
#67
Super Member
I think this situation has the potential to work itself out without pitting friends against each other. They've posted in this thread that they're talking, so beyond that all that matters to everyone else is the outcome.
Marcus- you're violating your own mbw posting rule
Marcus- you're violating your own mbw posting rule
04-17-2012, 09:46 PM
#68
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Who is this *** clown, get back under your rock you crawled out from. You have stated so much incorrect information, I am not even going to bother going threw it all for correction. Just know I saw your post, and I am extremely ticked that I lost 2 minutes of my time I will never get back.
There is so much misinformation being spred about this entire situation, that I felt compelled to say a few things. I have known Exotic for a very long time- throughout the years of forum posting when most of you weren't even in diapers. He is bar none one of the most respected people in the performance industry. Period. Every major forum knows who he is, and he is always one of the first people to raise the technical level and be willing to spread his knowledge and information to any one who asks. This forum was pathetic in the sharing of info before he bucked the trend. Everyone knows Shardul is also a stand up guy, enough that the opposition to his treatment on this board created such an outcry that the mods had to retreat, reinstate and do major damage control. Can't say that would happen for many other members, so to even implicate that they should in anyway be responsible for this is disgusting.
It is ludicrous that people have the audacity to say that they need to step it up. This is racing - and a racing industry. Things break, cars break, and peoples egos break. It sucks. But to brandish a pulley as causing the fault of these failures is fine if that has been proven, but to date that is not the case.
First of all - Chawkins - your "first" pulley failure was pretty well documented that the installer missed the keyway - causing the pulley to spin off. Clearly, there was damage done enough that you drilled and modified your "second" pulley- in essence - rigging it. Your installers should have pulled it apart and inspected it before another pulley was put on.
You should not buy it - because that version of the story is not exactly accurate. Blending your story with Steve's is a stretch.
People refer to this pulley as a bolt on design - but EVERY pulley is a bolt on design. It is the crank bolt that is at issue here, not the ring bolts. Were new bolts used on every install? Did anyone check that the crank bolt was still tightened to the proper torque? Clearly not, if the crank bolts are backing out and then a pulley is backing off, wobbling, spinning or coming off -then no one is checking these things. These are torque to yield bolts and require very precise installation, over tightening or under tightening (easy to do) can ruin the bolts purpose. What tools or methods were used to do the install? Poor tools, like strap wrenches can cause major issues as well. So there is alot of additional information that needs to be forthcoming to make your accusations and wrants even partially justifiable.
These are aftermarket parts- used on cars with the sole intent of gaining more horsepower or racing, look on every forum, people race, people break, but they don't whine and cry and expect the world to replace their stuff for free. Grow up - it's racing - there's no warranty for that. Seriously- if your lugnuts come loose and your wheel flies off are you going after the wheel company?
It is ludicrous that people have the audacity to say that they need to step it up. This is racing - and a racing industry. Things break, cars break, and peoples egos break. It sucks. But to brandish a pulley as causing the fault of these failures is fine if that has been proven, but to date that is not the case.
First of all - Chawkins - your "first" pulley failure was pretty well documented that the installer missed the keyway - causing the pulley to spin off. Clearly, there was damage done enough that you drilled and modified your "second" pulley- in essence - rigging it. Your installers should have pulled it apart and inspected it before another pulley was put on.
You should not buy it - because that version of the story is not exactly accurate. Blending your story with Steve's is a stretch.
People refer to this pulley as a bolt on design - but EVERY pulley is a bolt on design. It is the crank bolt that is at issue here, not the ring bolts. Were new bolts used on every install? Did anyone check that the crank bolt was still tightened to the proper torque? Clearly not, if the crank bolts are backing out and then a pulley is backing off, wobbling, spinning or coming off -then no one is checking these things. These are torque to yield bolts and require very precise installation, over tightening or under tightening (easy to do) can ruin the bolts purpose. What tools or methods were used to do the install? Poor tools, like strap wrenches can cause major issues as well. So there is alot of additional information that needs to be forthcoming to make your accusations and wrants even partially justifiable.
These are aftermarket parts- used on cars with the sole intent of gaining more horsepower or racing, look on every forum, people race, people break, but they don't whine and cry and expect the world to replace their stuff for free. Grow up - it's racing - there's no warranty for that. Seriously- if your lugnuts come loose and your wheel flies off are you going after the wheel company?
04-17-2012, 09:58 PM
#69
MBWorld Fanatic!
So companies who offer defective products shouldn't be held responsible.. Just because its an aftermarket product? Makes a lot of sense
04-17-2012, 09:59 PM
#70
Administrator
I am very confused by this thread. Can someone please tell me who/what is Red Tooth Racing? I see a web site that offers no phone number or physical address. I also see an E-bay account that has absolutely no feedback. Why would anyone in their right mind deal with this kind of company? I am obviosly missing something.
After a little more research it seems that this may be a product offered by a Shardul? Is this accurate?
After a little more research it seems that this may be a product offered by a Shardul? Is this accurate?
04-17-2012, 10:58 PM
#72
MBWorld Fanatic!
My advice to anyone that wants to upgrade your crankshaft pulley is to make friends with the techs at the dealership and have them install your pulley. Sure they can make mistakes just as a tuner could but at least you have the comfort of knowing that a MB certified tech is installing your crankshaft pulley. This will elimate the installer issue. My .02 and this is route that I took.
04-17-2012, 11:05 PM
#73
Out Of Control!!
My advice to anyone that wants to upgrade your crankshaft pulley is to make friends with the techs at the dealership and have them install your pulley. Sure they can make mistakes just as a tuner could but at least you have the comfort of knowing that a MB certified tech is installing your crankshaft pulley. This will elimate the installer issue. My .02 and this is route that I took.
04-17-2012, 11:29 PM
#74
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2014 E63s amg 4matic, 2009 C63, 2006 E55 AMG , 2001.5 AUDI S4 stg 3+ w/meth
My advice to anyone that wants to upgrade your crankshaft pulley is to make friends with the techs at the dealership and have them install your pulley. Sure they can make mistakes just as a tuner could but at least you have the comfort of knowing that a MB certified tech is installing your crankshaft pulley. This will elimate the installer issue. My .02 and this is route that I took.
needless to say i had my pulley installed by someone else that eurocharged recommended...
04-18-2012, 12:00 AM
#75
Super Moderator
I am very confused by this thread. Can someone please tell me who/what is Red Tooth Racing? I see a web site that offers no phone number or physical address. I also see an E-bay account that has absolutely no feedback. Why would anyone in their right mind deal with this kind of company? I am obviosly missing something.
After a little more research it seems that this may be a product offered by a Shardul? Is this accurate?
After a little more research it seems that this may be a product offered by a Shardul? Is this accurate?
Nevertheless, several crank pulley manufacturers have experienced issues over the years.
Knock wood my dampened evosport 178 doesn’t 86 a crank.
