MAP sensor problems?
11-09-2013, 10:20 PM
#26
MBWorld Fanatic!
Looks right. I see that there is also a Bosch version available. Wonder if it is possible that this could account for any differences.
Clearly looks like we would not run out of range on the stock map sensor. If there is a limitation, it appears to be on the ECU side then. Wonder if tuners can or have disabled the safety cutoff?
Clearly looks like we would not run out of range on the stock map sensor. If there is a limitation, it appears to be on the ECU side then. Wonder if tuners can or have disabled the safety cutoff?
Where do i get this simiple?
I have MB STAR which includes WIS & EPC you can look up the exact part number for the MAP sensor.
I have a map sensor from MB its above it clearly states the part number of MB and the actual manufacturer Fuji Electric. The specifiication of the MAP sensor is public information on the website but here it is again.
http://www.fujielectric.com/products...resensors.html
and here is they part number again Part EP9631-R3A it has an operating pressure of 20 - 250 KPa abs, 250 KPa is 2.5 BAR absolute.
You are confusing the physical limits of the sensor vs the data held in the tables in the control units, the MAP sensor is clearly a 2.5 BAR absolute sensor.
I have MB STAR which includes WIS & EPC you can look up the exact part number for the MAP sensor.
I have a map sensor from MB its above it clearly states the part number of MB and the actual manufacturer Fuji Electric. The specifiication of the MAP sensor is public information on the website but here it is again.
http://www.fujielectric.com/products...resensors.html
and here is they part number again Part EP9631-R3A it has an operating pressure of 20 - 250 KPa abs, 250 KPa is 2.5 BAR absolute.
You are confusing the physical limits of the sensor vs the data held in the tables in the control units, the MAP sensor is clearly a 2.5 BAR absolute sensor.
11-10-2013, 02:51 AM
#27
Super Member
Thread Starter
Where do i get this simiple?
I have MB STAR which includes WIS & EPC you can look up the exact part number for the MAP sensor.
I have a map sensor from MB its above it clearly states the part number of MB and the actual manufacturer Fuji Electric. The specifiication of the MAP sensor is public information on the website but here it is again.
http://www.fujielectric.com/products...resensors.html
and here is they part number again Part EP9631-R3A it has an operating pressure of 20 - 250 KPa abs, 250 KPa is 2.5 BAR absolute.
You are confusing the physical limits of the sensor vs the data held in the tables in the control units, the MAP sensor is clearly a 2.5 BAR absolute sensor.
I have MB STAR which includes WIS & EPC you can look up the exact part number for the MAP sensor.
I have a map sensor from MB its above it clearly states the part number of MB and the actual manufacturer Fuji Electric. The specifiication of the MAP sensor is public information on the website but here it is again.
http://www.fujielectric.com/products...resensors.html
and here is they part number again Part EP9631-R3A it has an operating pressure of 20 - 250 KPa abs, 250 KPa is 2.5 BAR absolute.
You are confusing the physical limits of the sensor vs the data held in the tables in the control units, the MAP sensor is clearly a 2.5 BAR absolute sensor.
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You seem to have most of my mods. So, knowing that....your car does not go to failsafe at high boost? I'm using Jerry also, so I'm curious on your reply....
Last edited by EREBUS; 11-10-2013 at 02:54 AM.
11-10-2013, 07:19 AM
#28
Super Member
I'm not discounting that you are not well modded and that you are experiencing issues at over 17psi. I am discounting your insight as to the size of the MAP sensor.
We both know and agree that our cars do not use a MAF and use speed density. That means the map has to be able to adjust not just for boost, but for changes in air pressure from temperature, elevation and speed. I've never seen a 1 bar map on anything that wasn't naturally aspirated. If it was a 1.1 bar sensor, it would be maxed out WELL BEFORE 17 psi of added boost.
As for my earlier question of a sensor upgrade, I'm not fully convinced it can't be done. Are we saying in Euroflash that the map scaling is an uneditable table(s)? Surely there is a 0-5v 3-4 bar map sensor that's a direct swap to allow such a thing to happen. This isn't the first platform that's had to do such a thing.
We both know and agree that our cars do not use a MAF and use speed density. That means the map has to be able to adjust not just for boost, but for changes in air pressure from temperature, elevation and speed. I've never seen a 1 bar map on anything that wasn't naturally aspirated. If it was a 1.1 bar sensor, it would be maxed out WELL BEFORE 17 psi of added boost.
As for my earlier question of a sensor upgrade, I'm not fully convinced it can't be done. Are we saying in Euroflash that the map scaling is an uneditable table(s)? Surely there is a 0-5v 3-4 bar map sensor that's a direct swap to allow such a thing to happen. This isn't the first platform that's had to do such a thing.
11-11-2013, 01:57 AM
#29
Super Member
Thread Starter
We both know and agree that our cars do not use a MAF and use speed density. That means the map has to be able to adjust not just for boost, but for changes in air pressure from temperature, elevation and speed. I've never seen a 1 bar map on anything that wasn't naturally aspirated. If it was a 1.1 bar sensor, it would be maxed out WELL BEFORE 17 psi of added boost.
As for my earlier question of a sensor upgrade, I'm not fully convinced it can't be done. Are we saying in Euroflash that the map scaling is an uneditable table(s)? Surely there is a 0-5v 3-4 bar map sensor that's a direct swap to allow such a thing to happen. This isn't the first platform that's had to do such a thing.
Nothing to watch here, folks. Carry on please. Coming up, how to install racing decals on next post
You know what? You're a great American. We look forward to your informative racing decal post.
11-11-2013, 10:24 AM
#31
Super Member
Thread Starter
11-11-2013, 03:38 PM
#33
Super Member
Thread Starter
11-11-2013, 07:17 PM
#35
Super Member
1) Sensors do not go in to limp mode.
2) Sensors fail, or they work.
3) Control units go in to limp mode.
4) The MAP sensor is a 2.5 Bar absolute pressure sensor.
5) ME, ETC, ESP have control in throttle application and delivery of signals.
6) 1-5 are the cold hard facts.
7) Does this issue occur at the same time every time?
8) Are you seeing any abnormal signal inputs to any of the prior listed control units at the time of occurrence?
9) Have you set up the flght recorder with the SDS to catch a snapshot of all input, and out put data to help trace the problem?
10) I am trying to help you and your team with some fresh perspective.
2) Sensors fail, or they work.
3) Control units go in to limp mode.
4) The MAP sensor is a 2.5 Bar absolute pressure sensor.
5) ME, ETC, ESP have control in throttle application and delivery of signals.
6) 1-5 are the cold hard facts.
7) Does this issue occur at the same time every time?
8) Are you seeing any abnormal signal inputs to any of the prior listed control units at the time of occurrence?
9) Have you set up the flght recorder with the SDS to catch a snapshot of all input, and out put data to help trace the problem?
10) I am trying to help you and your team with some fresh perspective.
11-12-2013, 03:17 AM
#36
Super Member
Thread Starter
1) Sensors do not go in to limp mode.
I agree. Please refer to my original post where I stated it triggered it....
2) Sensors fail, or they work.
True. Unless, of course, the sensor transmits signal based on the position of a moving part that are preset and limited to by design?
3) Control units go in to limp mode.
Agreed. Please refer to response #1
4) The MAP sensor is a 2.5 Bar absolute pressure sensor.
I quit
5) ME, ETC, ESP have control in throttle application and delivery of signals.
Yup. Interpreted by the ECU and TCU. Got it
6) 1-5 are the cold hard facts.
Kinda. I would say since all the female seahorse offers to parenting is the impregnation of the male seahorse by depositing her eggs in his womb, allowing the male to fertilize and carry the young until birth more of a cold hard fact that female seahorses are nothing more than baby mamas and not good role model parents?
7) Does this issue occur at the same time every time?
Yes, when boosting 16+lbs for more than @4 seconds
8) Are you seeing any abnormal signal inputs to any of the prior listed control units at the time of occurrence?
No. Once limp mode is activated, all perimeters adjust for failsafe
9) Have you set up the flght recorder with the SDS to catch a snapshot of all input, and out put data to help trace the problem?
Yes. Stars and data logging show MAP sensor code and timing and fuel reduction
10) I am trying to help you and your team with some fresh perspective.
Thank you
I agree. Please refer to my original post where I stated it triggered it....
2) Sensors fail, or they work.
True. Unless, of course, the sensor transmits signal based on the position of a moving part that are preset and limited to by design?
3) Control units go in to limp mode.
Agreed. Please refer to response #1
4) The MAP sensor is a 2.5 Bar absolute pressure sensor.
I quit
5) ME, ETC, ESP have control in throttle application and delivery of signals.
Yup. Interpreted by the ECU and TCU. Got it
6) 1-5 are the cold hard facts.
Kinda. I would say since all the female seahorse offers to parenting is the impregnation of the male seahorse by depositing her eggs in his womb, allowing the male to fertilize and carry the young until birth more of a cold hard fact that female seahorses are nothing more than baby mamas and not good role model parents?
7) Does this issue occur at the same time every time?
Yes, when boosting 16+lbs for more than @4 seconds
8) Are you seeing any abnormal signal inputs to any of the prior listed control units at the time of occurrence?
No. Once limp mode is activated, all perimeters adjust for failsafe
9) Have you set up the flght recorder with the SDS to catch a snapshot of all input, and out put data to help trace the problem?
Yes. Stars and data logging show MAP sensor code and timing and fuel reduction
10) I am trying to help you and your team with some fresh perspective.
Thank you
11-12-2013, 06:13 AM
#37
Super Member
What code are you getting for the MAP sensor? Please supply the MB code, if possible.
Is the MAP sensor in the factory position? What rate of methanol injection are you at with 16+psi of boost? What is the position of your injector in relation to the MAP sensor. Has the wiring harness been pinned out?
Is the MAP sensor in the factory position? What rate of methanol injection are you at with 16+psi of boost? What is the position of your injector in relation to the MAP sensor. Has the wiring harness been pinned out?
Last edited by 211.070; 11-12-2013 at 06:19 AM.
11-12-2013, 12:06 PM
#38
Super Member
Thread Starter
yes
I'm not running any meth until I fix the problem
to which wiring harness are you addressing?
....
03-09-2014, 12:45 PM
#40
Out Of Control!!
I feel like this is a huge roadblock to MB performance if this is true. Let's try to figure it out. I looked at one of my logs on my dashdaq from about a week ago. My car didn't go into fail safe mode on the 1/4 mile pass but was doing other funny things. Anyways lets focus on the boost issue. So our MAP sensors are 2.5 bar absolute (I checked and my MAP sensor is the same as listed in this thread). ~ 1 bar atmospheric pressure (~14.5 psi) removed that leaves us with 1.5 bar = ~21.75psi. If you guys are experiencing limp mode with only 18 PSI of boost there is something inherently different with your setups and mine. Although I have alot of driveability issues and not making optimal power with my tune, I was able to successfully make it down the track. Now for the good part. Guess how much absolute pressure I'm seeing? 34.7psi absolute pressure at the top of the track 
That's about 20.2psi read through the OBD2 port (are you guys seeing higher than 18psi throught OBD2 in your runs when it goes into limp mode?). I'm not running the stock blower but boost is boost. To me that means it lies in the tune. Odd thing is most people are using the same tuner 
It's been over a year now that I've tried to get my car tuned (not by the same tuner) and it's VERY frustrating. I converted to a 55k ECU and everything. Sometimes I wish I never changed from my old setup. Has anyone tried standalone?
Edit: Added log for people to see. Notice where the boost is
That's about 20.2psi read through the OBD2 port (are you guys seeing higher than 18psi throught OBD2 in your runs when it goes into limp mode?). I'm not running the stock blower but boost is boost. To me that means it lies in the tune. Odd thing is most people are using the same tuner It's been over a year now that I've tried to get my car tuned (not by the same tuner) and it's VERY frustrating. I converted to a 55k ECU and everything. Sometimes I wish I never changed from my old setup. Has anyone tried standalone?Edit: Added log for people to see. Notice where the boost is
Last edited by blackbenzz; 03-09-2014 at 12:56 PM.
03-09-2014, 05:36 PM
#41
Super Member
blackbenzz, I am with you. This has to be a tuning issue. There must be a hidden failsafe that has not been found. The sensor itself can measure the actual pressure. It must be in the scaling of the output of the sensor that is interpreted by the ecm.
03-09-2014, 07:45 PM
#42
Super Member
Thread Starter
I'm realizing after all of my fury of the perimeters of the map sensor.....it was a tune issue all along. Funny though, a map clamp fixed my problem with a **** tune. BIP Tuning seems to be working harder on the issue than other tuners. Quit drinking the cool aid and give them a shot.
Last edited by EREBUS; 03-09-2014 at 07:47 PM.
03-09-2014, 08:27 PM
#43
Super Member
I'm realizing after all of my fury of the perimeters of the map sensor.....it was a tune issue all along. Funny though, a map clamp fixed my problem with a **** tune. BIP Tuning seems to be working harder on the issue than other tuners. Quit drinking the cool aid and give them a shot.
There is a very simple, yet complex formula when it comes to interface tuning. When you are dealing with such a small market as we have, and the resources are minimal you can expext set backs. Until one of our tuners puts forth the effort to tune the higher spectrum(and the issues that you only see here) with our systems. You will never get a true understanding of the abilities of the programming.
03-09-2014, 08:50 PM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
"I spent an entire day watching Jerry @Eurocharged try to tune around it. If you don't know, Jerry is the best at tuning a Mercedes to date."
"it was a tune issue all along. Funny though, a map clamp fixed my problem with a **** tune. BIP Tuning seems to be working harder on the issue than other tuners. Quit drinking the cool aid and give them a shot."
You're all over the place. I like that. Your engine deserves a turbo.... or two.
"it was a tune issue all along. Funny though, a map clamp fixed my problem with a **** tune. BIP Tuning seems to be working harder on the issue than other tuners. Quit drinking the cool aid and give them a shot."
You're all over the place. I like that. Your engine deserves a turbo.... or two.
03-09-2014, 09:45 PM
#45
Super Member
Thread Starter
"I spent an entire day watching Jerry @Eurocharged try to tune around it. If you don't know, Jerry is the best at tuning a Mercedes to date."
"it was a tune issue all along. Funny though, a map clamp fixed my problem with a **** tune. BIP Tuning seems to be working harder on the issue than other tuners. Quit drinking the cool aid and give them a shot."
You're all over the place. I like that. Your engine deserves a turbo.... or two.
"it was a tune issue all along. Funny though, a map clamp fixed my problem with a **** tune. BIP Tuning seems to be working harder on the issue than other tuners. Quit drinking the cool aid and give them a shot."
You're all over the place. I like that. Your engine deserves a turbo.... or two.
Last edited by EREBUS; 03-09-2014 at 11:10 PM.
03-10-2014, 08:38 AM
#46
Super Member
Additionally, there is a 3.0bar ABSOLUTE sensor that came in some of the diesel MB cars. This may be an option, as long as the tune is adjusted to consider the new scale and loss of resolution.
03-10-2014, 12:03 PM
#47
Super Member
Thread Starter
I started quoting and then gave up. The 1.1bar you reference is GAGE pressure, not ABSOLUTE pressure. The sensor is a 2.5bar ABSOLUTE sensor, which should be capable of reading 1.5bar GAGE, since the first 1.0bar is atmospheric. Go call Renntech, Eurocharged, BIP... any tuner you want and ask them the difference between gage and absolute, almighty one.
Additionally, there is a 3.0bar ABSOLUTE sensor that came in some of the diesel MB cars. This may be an option, as long as the tune is adjusted to consider the new scale and loss of resolution.
Additionally, there is a 3.0bar ABSOLUTE sensor that came in some of the diesel MB cars. This may be an option, as long as the tune is adjusted to consider the new scale and loss of resolution.
I'm realizing after all of my fury of the perimeters of the map sensor.....it was a tune issue all along. Funny though, a map clamp fixed my problem with a **** tune. BIP Tuning seems to be working harder on the issue than other tuners. Quit drinking the cool aid and give them a shot.
03-10-2014, 12:41 PM
#48
Super Member
The current 2.5bar absolute map sensor is 0051537228. This same sensor is used on the SLR at 22psi (1.5bar gage) but it is rescaled in the SLR computer.
The 3.0bar absolute map sensor is 0061539928, used on the w211 diesel. This may be an option, if a tuner is willing to tackle the full fuel table recalculating it would require.
03-10-2014, 01:10 PM
#49
Super Member
Thread Starter
You still never corrected yourself, only stated it was a tune issue.
The current 2.5bar absolute map sensor is 0051537228. This same sensor is used on the SLR at 22psi (1.5bar gage) but it is rescaled in the SLR computer.
The 3.0bar absolute map sensor is 0061539928, used on the w211 diesel. This may be an option, if a tuner is willing to tackle the full fuel table recalculating it would require.
The current 2.5bar absolute map sensor is 0051537228. This same sensor is used on the SLR at 22psi (1.5bar gage) but it is rescaled in the SLR computer.
The 3.0bar absolute map sensor is 0061539928, used on the w211 diesel. This may be an option, if a tuner is willing to tackle the full fuel table recalculating it would require.
Besides, who are you for me to phucking correct myself too?
03-10-2014, 03:27 PM
#50
Super Member
Renntech said anything over 1.1 bar will cause problems with our map sensor. (My tech called them looking for answers to my issue. Apparently, Renntech helps multiple Mercedes dealerships with issues not even related to Renntech products) They also stated our map sensor is not designed for higher boost application. Since some have issues while others don't......I guess it is open for speculation. A map clamp installed to avoid @ 2-3 psi overboost is safe. Anymore boost will require a different map sensor.
Besides, who are you for me to phucking correct myself too?
Besides, who are you for me to phucking correct myself too?
A map clamp is only as safe as your most accurate alternative failsafe, I certainly wouldn't be relying on it.
Just your average, lowly powertrain engineer.
