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Gentleman lets please come back to the lean-spike hiccup problem. Thank you.
I have new informations from the tuners here in germany. I bet they can not believe that the US tuners for this plattform still havent figured it out.
That "lean spike" that occurs is definately the switch into a so called "backup map" that the ECU switches to, if the Software is not perfect optimized for the TB and other mods. That backup maps have to be altered for your specific mods too.
Thats the first thing they advice to do, if the US tuners actually know which backup map is for which specific sensor reporting a failure to the ECU.
The german tuners said the issue with modded 55 engines is that especially on low load, but also in situations when you accelerate from low load/idle to a higher load, the air is actually "pulsating" inside after the Throttlebody and this pulsation (up down, ie. not a constant pressure anymore like it used to be) confuses the map sensor and it "quits" and the ECU switches to a backup map. Thats why we have that so called "lean spike".
The "lean spike" is nothing else than a backup map for the stock un-modded engine.
So let say it would theoretically be possible to remove all mods while the engine runs in that "lean spike mode", it would drive just fine afterwards with stock parts.
So the table for the map sensors must be adjust to accept a wider "margin" for those increased pulsations, or how could we better call it... "fluctuations in pressure" :-)
So tuners... you have now ALL the info you need - now get to work and deliver us lean-spike free tuns and alter all those backup tables!
This makes a lot of sense, not sure what to do about it though. Has anyone run this by their tuner?
Last edited by StarvingArtist; Jul 22, 2019 at 07:21 AM.
Yes I did. ran fine the first day but I still got the cel, thought I should mess with idle in star but before I had a chance I got the hiccup twice the second day.
This is why the industry should focus on an HPTuners style end-user tuning software for these cars. Tuner's suck and very rarely put in the time/effort necessary to get a tune right. When something pops up in a tune, it can sometimes take a couple of days of research to figure out what may be causing the issue. Most of the time, I find it's because the previous tuner did NOT do something they were supposed to do because it either takes a lot of time or requires them to be capable of derivative calculus.
Guess I'll add my name to the list of folks with issues with the 82mm throttlebody
Vehicle: CLS55
Codes encountered so far: P0505 and P0106
Mods:
82mm throttle body on adapter plate
80mm Ypipe
American Racing Longtube Headers with 200 cell cats
83mm pulley
Secondary air injection removed and block off plates added
550 injectors
Brand new IAT sensor
Brand new MAP sensor
Eurocharge tune
Guess I'll add my name to the list of folks with issues with the 82mm throttlebody
Vehicle: CLS55
Codes encountered so far: P0505 and P0106
Mods:
82mm throttle body on adapter plate
80mm Ypipe
American Racing Longtube Headers with 200 cell cats
83mm pulley
Secondary air injection removed and block off plates added
550 injectors
Brand new IAT sensor
Brand new MAP sensor
Eurocharge tune
Hopefully someone has come across solution.
I had those same codes when i tried out the 82mm tb. It was a long on going task of changing out all the gaskets. I also did smoke test and nothing! I ended up going back to stock tb and no more codes. I might take on the task again since i know there are no leaks on the bottom supercharger areas. I just have to focus on the snout,adapter plate and tb.
I was told from the very from the start that an 80mm was never an issue as the came on the SL's so that is what I went with and works well AFTER doing the throttle body reset.
Gentleman lets please come back to the lean-spike hiccup problem. Thank you.
I have new informations from the tuners here in germany. I bet they can not believe that the US tuners for this plattform still havent figured it out.
That "lean spike" that occurs is definately the switch into a so called "backup map" that the ECU switches to, if the Software is not perfect optimized for the TB and other mods. That backup maps have to be altered for your specific mods too.
Thats the first thing they advice to do, if the US tuners actually know which backup map is for which specific sensor reporting a failure to the ECU.
The german tuners said the issue with modded 55 engines is that especially on low load, but also in situations when you accelerate from low load/idle to a higher load, the air is actually "pulsating" inside after the Throttlebody and this pulsation (up down, ie. not a constant pressure anymore like it used to be) confuses the map sensor and it "quits" and the ECU switches to a backup map. Thats why we have that so called "lean spike".
The "lean spike" is nothing else than a backup map for the stock un-modded engine.
So let say it would theoretically be possible to remove all mods while the engine runs in that "lean spike mode", it would drive just fine afterwards with stock parts.
So the table for the map sensors must be adjust to accept a wider "margin" for those increased pulsations, or how could we better call it... "fluctuations in pressure" :-)
So tuners... you have now ALL the info you need - now get to work and deliver us lean-spike free tuns and alter all those backup tables!
So after 3 throttle bodies the P0505 code is gone but I just had the P0106 pop up this evening after the cold front rolled in. Do you recall what tuners you worked with to get that information? I haven't heard of any other tuners taking this approach yet. How would a tuner even adjust the table for the map sensors to accept a wider "margin" for the increased pulsations? Is that even something that *can* be adjusted?
My Informations were from someone related to MKB Tuning. They apperently knew the problem but fixed it.
I recall reading 2 years ago over at Facebook by Eurocharged Tuning, that the hiccup issue was hardware related and was fixed with many customers. Is that true?
In my SPECIFIC case it seems like a combination of hardware/tune. My initial P0505 codes were due to a bad throttle body (two bad throttle bodies actually). The third one that was installed got rid of the P0505... the P0106 issue *just* started happening after several months with this new(er) throttle body.
Drothgeb just fixed his after months of screwing with it and had DTK send him a tune.
If the guys in Europe are not having this problem with the hiccup, Why are there not more people changing the tune to DTK for example. Seems like a no brainer to me, If it then goes away its the tune..simple
If anyone with this issue and fault code P2007-008 has access to DAS/STAR could you post the freeze frame data? That would be very helpful in finding a permanent solution for this issue. Freeze frame data can be found by highlighting the fault code in DAS under the M.E. menu, and clicking the magnifying glass symbol. Two pages will look like this:
@E55Greasemonkey does your car have longtube headers by any chance? I wonder if there is any relationship with having LTH along with the 82 that could make for a "too efficient" intake/exhaust set up that messes up the ECU. FWIW I have the 83mm pulley, NEW 82mm OEM TB, and American Racing longtube headers with 200cell cats.
@E55Greasemonkey does your car have longtube headers by any chance? I wonder if there is any relationship with having LTH along with the 82 that could make for a "too efficient" intake/exhaust set up that messes up the ECU. FWIW I have the 83mm pulley, NEW 82mm OEM TB, and American Racing longtube headers with 200cell cats.
Yes, long tubes with race cats, stock exhaust from there. 175mm crank pulley, 82mm TB, Eurocharged tune. However...I'm pretty sure I had this problem with my Kleemann mid-lengths. After searching here on MBworld, I could find several posts with owners of stock E55/SL55 with the same fault code and telltale rough idle/surging at idle that went away after a key cycle. I saw your other post and was what I feared...tuners don't want to invest time in fixing this for such an old platform. I also found my old freeze frame data from another episode with my car. When I get a chance I'll organize and post the data here.
Last edited by E55Greasemonkey; Jan 16, 2022 at 12:50 PM.
I had the hiccup with shorty headers, I have catless longtubes now but switched to an 80mm TB and it solved the hiccup. I already have a bored snout for an 82 so I'd love a solution too!
We have a few choices to solve the problem.
1) Have a tuner change the backup maps....hasn't happened in 19 years of this platform and won't happen now.
2) Go back to the stock 74mm, or 80mm TB from the '07-'08 SL55
3) Trick the ECU into thinking everything is ok by slightly changing the voltage readings of the pressure sensor, and hoping the values will then fall in the safe zone without causing other system faults, or bad AFR's.
4) Just live with the hiccup mode, and cycle the key when it happens.
My next step, which may prove difficult, is to capture the same freeze frame data from a stock e55 or equivalent to compare the readings and let me know which way the voltage/vacuum needs to go, up or down. I do own a CLK430 Cabrio, with it's 113 engine I may be able to get some numbers to look at. Our supercharged engine runs just like a N/A version when not under boost.
I'm suspecting the ECU is not seeing enough vacuum at certain data points of the throttle valve position. Things are starting to make sense...I'm also dealing with a strong fuel odor from the charcoal canister after long drives. Everything has been replaced and tested working- but the lack of strong vacuum to clear the canister is a theory I'm also looking at. This could also be a fault of the hiccup mode. The ECU may stop purge commands altogether when it sees a fault from the MAP sensor.
Last edited by E55Greasemonkey; Jan 20, 2022 at 09:23 PM.
I got some voltage and pressure readings from my car today. I have a friend with a modified E55 with the stock TB, we will have to coordinate a time to compare values. This will all take a while.
If anyone doubts what is causing this, it is certainly a backup map that the ECU defaults to when a fault code is set for the MAP sensor. I found this in WIS in reference to the m275 TT V12 engine. This explains it...
Again, there is no information in WIS for our 113.990 engine and our fault code P2007-008, but this explains it, taken from another engine spec. It's frustrating that we cannot see what the "performance map" numbers are!
Last edited by E55Greasemonkey; Jan 20, 2022 at 09:06 PM.
Sadly, fear of the hiccup is the only thing stopping me from pulling the trigger on a Hellcat throttle body upgrade. I’d hate to get an 80/78mm instead.
Here's an older freeze frame screenshot from 2019. The fact that 313 hPa shows up a lot with this p2007-008 code, in that exact number is curious. Also, note the low 259 hPa reading on this driving cycle, yet still setting a fault. I've got a voltage regulator on the way, and my plan is to increase the voltage slightly to the sensor. I've only got a max of .2 volts up or down to play with before other codes will set. The engine ECU has it's own built in pressure sensor to measure altitude, so there is a plausibility check to the MAP sensor when the key is first turned on, at least that's what the WIS documents show on other models.
The engine ECU has it's own built in pressure sensor to measure altitude, so there is a plausibility check to the MAP sensor when the key is first turned on, at least that's what the WIS documents show on other models.
You're not the first person to mention a built in pressure sensor on the ECU. There was another post in one of the other hiccup threads that mentioned this as well. Do you happen to have documentation that there really is a pressure sensor on the ECU? Really appreciate digging into this as well.
Sadly, fear of the hiccup is the only thing stopping me from pulling the trigger on a Hellcat throttle body upgrade. I’d hate to get an 80/78mm instead.
I am also in the same boat being hesitant to jump to a Hellcat TB since I have stock TB now on a CLS55.
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