another twin turbo e55 amg is born at BIP
#452
Its a little strange to just join a forum to post in a certain thread ![nix](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif)
Maybe just me IDK. Usually its someone posting on behalf of someone else. But hey maybe I am wrong.
It was mentioned earlier about possible turbulence pre-turbine. As the intake manifold wasn't designed for forced induction. However someone mentioned another twin turbo build that used the intake manifold and they said that they are having absolutely zero problems.
![nix](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/nixweiss.gif)
Maybe just me IDK. Usually its someone posting on behalf of someone else. But hey maybe I am wrong.
It was mentioned earlier about possible turbulence pre-turbine. As the intake manifold wasn't designed for forced induction. However someone mentioned another twin turbo build that used the intake manifold and they said that they are having absolutely zero problems.
#453
Super Member
#454
It may be strange, but he's correct with his information.
Craig, you're on stock manifolds? How did I miss this?! It's turbulence... the more the turbos flow, the worse the symptoms are. With it being an OEM blower car Mercedes did not care how air exited the manifolds, only that they were sufficient for the stock power output. Has anyone completed a rear mount turbo setup? If so, I'm willing to bet they don't have this issue... the air evens out by then.
Craig, you're on stock manifolds? How did I miss this?! It's turbulence... the more the turbos flow, the worse the symptoms are. With it being an OEM blower car Mercedes did not care how air exited the manifolds, only that they were sufficient for the stock power output. Has anyone completed a rear mount turbo setup? If so, I'm willing to bet they don't have this issue... the air evens out by then.
#456
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2005 E55, 2011 Honda Push Mower (21 inch deck bishes)
It seems like we have some more people trying to help. Here are the pictures I've scavenged from the thread that may help:
![](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/291599d1405897603-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-20140720_141126.jpg)
![](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/292079d1406588233-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-boost-hp-tq.jpg)
![](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/292115d1406657952-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-img_3309.jpg)
![](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/291599d1405897603-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-20140720_141126.jpg)
![](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/292079d1406588233-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-boost-hp-tq.jpg)
![](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/292115d1406657952-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-img_3309.jpg)
![](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/292116d1406657952-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-img_3267.jpg)
#457
Thanks for compiling them, but I still couldn't see from them before how the piping between the manifolds and A/R are worked up. But just from seeing the positioning I would say the runner lengths and design of the stock manifold in conjunction with the hardware being used its likely creating a hurricane of turbulence and inconjunction with scavenging the engines got to be struggling with spark blow out and likely can't atomize well at all. The dyno also is useless in terms of diagnosis with out it having the boost at least laid over the graph, but with that being said I'd bet by looking at the graph the compressor and it's compressor map would showing the turbo boosting heavily starting right around 3700 rpms and coming to the boost "hit" at there point of break up.
#458
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E55 AMG on Ethanol-Meth; 600rwhp BMW M5
Yes, that CLS had the turbos positioned in the same location and used the same stock manifolds.
He however had a completely different inatke manifold and used the stock surge tanks and intercooler.
His Turbo size was GTX3076's.
Here is the boost curve and we had boost creep occuring when we had the 38mm waste gates. We switched to 44mm waste gates to rectify the problem.
I personally do not know if the front air to air intercooler could cause this type of issue, but it has blown apart four different times at the seams. We had to re weld the split seams everytime that happened.
Boost and air fuel
![another twin turbo e55 amg is born at BIP-2014-07-282018_54_29.jpg](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/399862d1542333330t-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-2014-07-282018_54_29.jpg)
Timing and IATs
He however had a completely different inatke manifold and used the stock surge tanks and intercooler.
His Turbo size was GTX3076's.
Here is the boost curve and we had boost creep occuring when we had the 38mm waste gates. We switched to 44mm waste gates to rectify the problem.
I personally do not know if the front air to air intercooler could cause this type of issue, but it has blown apart four different times at the seams. We had to re weld the split seams everytime that happened.
Boost and air fuel
![another twin turbo e55 amg is born at BIP-2014-07-282018_54_29.jpg](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/399862d1542333330t-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-2014-07-282018_54_29.jpg)
Timing and IATs
![another twin turbo e55 amg is born at BIP-airfueltiming.jpg](https://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/w211-amg/399863d1542333339t-another-twin-turbo-e55-amg-born-bip-airfueltiming.jpg)
#459
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1Forced Benz- if the exhaust were so terrible to cause turbulence , it would result in super high backpressure which isn't even remotely the case here.
Craig, if you do suspect that backpressure on the hotside is affecting things, get a scope/digital engine analyzer hooked up to the plug leads and you can get a better idea of what's happening inside the combustion chamber. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that's the case here.
Craig, if you do suspect that backpressure on the hotside is affecting things, get a scope/digital engine analyzer hooked up to the plug leads and you can get a better idea of what's happening inside the combustion chamber. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that's the case here.
#460
Ok that helps but was pretty much exactly as I said and thought the boost would be coming on and peaking. Also about the wastegates, your almost always better off using the smaller gates then larger for more precise boost control. Boost creep was likely due to an insufficient boost controller, again in my opinion. But looking at your graphs and info I think you'd be wasting time to get different turbos. Those should be sufficient to 750whp with keeping a nice boost to back pressure ratio. And anyways modern turbos are very efficient the smaller the better if you want to keep a fast spool as long as there capable which those should be without much of a second thought with only pushing around 15psi. Again you have to remember boost is irrelevant with turbos as the turbos are made and the compressor maps are much more important on the power you'll be making because so many years other facts come into play and it's all about the volume the entire set up can use vs. boost. So it seems you've no where outgrew the turbos currently. Now if some others have used stock manifolds wether just on the intake with there setup or just the exhaust manifolds in there setups with custom intake or exhaust headers respectively I could buy that. But your setup seems that it's the combination of both insufficient header design and intake side cauing yours to suffer. Change out 1 end and I bet it'd work ok as seems others have, but do a proper exhaust and intake custom of course and you'd have a wonderfully working turbo setup I'd about garuntee that. About the cracked seams seen it before and usually is due to 1 of 2 things . A poor weld/contaminated weld to begin with or its mounted way to tight to the chassis not allowing flex. Hope some of this might be of help.
#461
1Forced Benz- if the exhaust were so terrible to cause turbulence , it would result in super high backpressure which isn't even remotely the case here.
Craig, if you do suspect that backpressure on the hotside is affecting things, get a scope/digital engine analyzer hooked up to the plug leads and you can get a better idea of what's happening inside the combustion chamber. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that's the case here.
Craig, if you do suspect that backpressure on the hotside is affecting things, get a scope/digital engine analyzer hooked up to the plug leads and you can get a better idea of what's happening inside the combustion chamber. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that's the case here.
#462
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No feathers ruffled here at all. I understand you're just trying to help the guy as are all the people chiming in on this thread.
Also, take this constructively as you seem to be familiar with the subject matter- Your thoughts would be a lot easier to interpret if you used paragraphs instead of the wall of text.
Also, take this constructively as you seem to be familiar with the subject matter- Your thoughts would be a lot easier to interpret if you used paragraphs instead of the wall of text.
#463
MBWorld Fanatic!
So what you guys are saying is that, the problem could be:
manifolds
to small a turbo
plumbing
intake
It could be anything at this point.
manifolds
to small a turbo
plumbing
intake
It could be anything at this point.
Last edited by chawkins2001; 08-06-2014 at 06:18 PM.
#465
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2003 porsche 996 turbo
craig your turbos aren't to small. don't think of your engine as a 8 cal v8 but rather 2 4 cylinder motors. you are running a twin setup so the 400 rwhp each turbo is capable of is plenty for each side. with a .82 a/r your spool starts abut 3500 rpm. going to a larger a/r will increase the lag time and your going to run out of peak rpm before your turbos reach peak efficiency . if you had a supra that peaks at 9000 rpm you can run huge turbos that don't start until 5000 rm. running the 3071 may not be the most optimum turbo for your car but it can produce more power than you ever had on a s/c setup
btw i see a max of 12 psi on my emap sensors.
Last edited by 320 dreamer; 08-06-2014 at 08:17 PM.
#466
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1990 300ce supercharged and intercooled
Did you ever try running at lower boost levels. Say around 15 psi or 13psi? Does the issue shift in the rpm range at all? It looks like it hits around 15.5 psi and then this happens. Also are the intake air temps the top lines or the bottom lines and is that c or f.
#468
MBWorld Fanatic!
This kit was sold as a 100% bolt on kit that just needed to be tuned, it clearly is not the case. There are just to many variables that are unknown causing the same issue now for 3 months.
Don't forget Paul ran into the exact same problem with his e55 and the IPS kit. Eurocharged said they were done trying to tune it as it was a hardware issue.
Don't forget Paul ran into the exact same problem with his e55 and the IPS kit. Eurocharged said they were done trying to tune it as it was a hardware issue.
Last edited by chawkins2001; 08-07-2014 at 02:49 PM.
#469
MBWorld Fanatic!
That sucks, but understandable.. You had more patience than I would have had. Just for those thinking about attempting this (I saw someone say, :let me take a whack at this").. This is a $7K to $15K effort once you have kit in hand. Is that a fair estimate?
So, New Blower?? Hint Hint / Wink Wink
So, New Blower?? Hint Hint / Wink Wink
#472
MBWorld Fanatic!
BIP has a lot invested in trying to get this too work, but I am going to talk to Jason in pulling this off and sending it back to IPS in exchange for a FULL REFUND.
This kit was sold as a 100% bolt on kit that just needed to be tuned, it clearly is not the case. There are just to many variables that are unknown causing the same issue now for 3 months.
Don't forget Paul ran into the exact same problem with his e55 and the IPS kit. Eurocharged said they were done trying to tune it as it was a hardware issue.
Same kit was sold twice, now its time to settle and move on.
This kit was sold as a 100% bolt on kit that just needed to be tuned, it clearly is not the case. There are just to many variables that are unknown causing the same issue now for 3 months.
Don't forget Paul ran into the exact same problem with his e55 and the IPS kit. Eurocharged said they were done trying to tune it as it was a hardware issue.
Same kit was sold twice, now its time to settle and move on.
![hammer](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/bonk.gif)