another twin turbo e55 amg is born at BIP
08-07-2014, 09:08 AM
#476
Super Member
Thank you for the attempt, Craig, it just wasn't meant to be on this one
08-07-2014, 09:49 AM
#477
MBWorld Fanatic!
This is alot of my data in one post that I documented for myself and others, still cant let it go just yet
If anyone knows how to identify these turbos, hit me up.
The turbo kit was built by IPS in Ohio for this vehicle, 2006 Mercedes Benz E55 AMG I will list as many specs as possible. But for some reason @ 5500 RPM @ any boost pressure ranging from 12psi to 17psi, as we raised the boost with a manual controller, it basically hits a wall and starts to misfire. I have pulled up to 10* of timing and it still does the same thing of course with less power.
Specs on the engine:
Stock M113 5.5L V8 supercharged from the factory
7:7:1 Compression ratio
Spec on Turbos:
Exhaust Housing - 2803 stamped on it
Body - 700177-5022s
Compressor housing - HTA76
We were given the information that the turbos are GT3076r running a 1.06a/r but not 100% sure, and there are two others that are running gt3076 turbo's that are massive compared to what we have. They are not having the issues we are having. Cold side inlet is 2.25" and outlet is 2", hot side inlet is 2.25" and outlet 3", tial 44mm wastegates
Here is the data that I have:
15psig @ manifold
18psig @ Turbos
back pressure on both sides are 13psi
EGT's are getting over 1000* our temp prob does not go over so it stops @ 1000 and its right when it breaks up as well
Tuning info:
10* timing at peak tq and 18* by the time it breaks up @ 5500rpm
131 intake air temps at the throttle body
AFR's 11.5:1 goes extreme rich at break up 9.5:1
Ambient temps 85*
Spark plugs are NGK IFR6AIX
If anyone knows how to identify these turbos, hit me up.The turbo kit was built by IPS in Ohio for this vehicle, 2006 Mercedes Benz E55 AMG I will list as many specs as possible. But for some reason @ 5500 RPM @ any boost pressure ranging from 12psi to 17psi, as we raised the boost with a manual controller, it basically hits a wall and starts to misfire. I have pulled up to 10* of timing and it still does the same thing of course with less power.
Specs on the engine:
Stock M113 5.5L V8 supercharged from the factory
7:7:1 Compression ratio
Spec on Turbos:
Exhaust Housing - 2803 stamped on it
Body - 700177-5022s
Compressor housing - HTA76
We were given the information that the turbos are GT3076r running a 1.06a/r but not 100% sure, and there are two others that are running gt3076 turbo's that are massive compared to what we have. They are not having the issues we are having. Cold side inlet is 2.25" and outlet is 2", hot side inlet is 2.25" and outlet 3", tial 44mm wastegates
Here is the data that I have:
15psig @ manifold
18psig @ Turbos
back pressure on both sides are 13psi
EGT's are getting over 1000* our temp prob does not go over so it stops @ 1000 and its right when it breaks up as well
Tuning info:
10* timing at peak tq and 18* by the time it breaks up @ 5500rpm
131 intake air temps at the throttle body
AFR's 11.5:1 goes extreme rich at break up 9.5:1
Ambient temps 85*
Spark plugs are NGK IFR6AIX
Last edited by chawkins2001; 08-07-2014 at 01:41 PM.
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Ducatic230 (01-26-2020)
08-07-2014, 10:37 AM
#479
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Ridgecrest, CA
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M113 E50 6-speed, 2005 E55 AMG
The ECU will make the car fall on it's nose if it's running crazy lean but otherwise it just knocks back timing gradually if the temps get high.
08-07-2014, 11:40 AM
#480
This is alot of my data in one post that I documented for myself and others, still cant let it go just yet If anyone knows how to identify these turbos, hit me up.
The turbo kit was built by IPS in Ohio for this vehicle, 2006 Mercedes Benz E55 AMG I will list as many specs as possibly a bit later. But for some reason @ 5500 RPM @ any boost pressure ranging from 12psi to 17psi as we raised the boost with a manual controller basically hits a wall and start to misfire, I have pulled up to 10* of timing and it still does the same thing of course with less power.
Specs on the engine:
Stock M113 5.5L V8 supercharged from the factory
7:7:1 Compression ratio
Spec on Turbos:
Exhaust Housing - 2803 stamped on it
Body - 700177-5022s
Compressor housing - HTA76
We were given the information that the turbos are GT3076r running a 1.06a/r but not 100% sure and there are two others that are running gt3076 turbo's that are massive compared to what we have and they are not having the issues we are having. Cold side inlet is 2.25" and outlet is 2", hot side inlet is 2.25" and outlet 3", tail 44mm wastegates
Here is as much Data that I have and if you are in need of anything else please let us know.
15psig @ manifold
18psig @ Turbos
back pressure on both sides are 13psi
EGT's are getting over 1000* our temp prob does not go over so it stops @ 1000 and its right when it breaks up as well
Tuning info:
10* timing at peak tq and 18* by the time it breaks up @ 5500rpm
131 intake air temps at the throttle body
AFR's 11.5:1 goes extreme rich at break up 9.5:1
Ambient temps 85*
Spark plugs are NGK IFR6AIX
If anyone knows how to identify these turbos, hit me up.The turbo kit was built by IPS in Ohio for this vehicle, 2006 Mercedes Benz E55 AMG I will list as many specs as possibly a bit later. But for some reason @ 5500 RPM @ any boost pressure ranging from 12psi to 17psi as we raised the boost with a manual controller basically hits a wall and start to misfire, I have pulled up to 10* of timing and it still does the same thing of course with less power.
Specs on the engine:
Stock M113 5.5L V8 supercharged from the factory
7:7:1 Compression ratio
Spec on Turbos:
Exhaust Housing - 2803 stamped on it
Body - 700177-5022s
Compressor housing - HTA76
We were given the information that the turbos are GT3076r running a 1.06a/r but not 100% sure and there are two others that are running gt3076 turbo's that are massive compared to what we have and they are not having the issues we are having. Cold side inlet is 2.25" and outlet is 2", hot side inlet is 2.25" and outlet 3", tail 44mm wastegates
Here is as much Data that I have and if you are in need of anything else please let us know.
15psig @ manifold
18psig @ Turbos
back pressure on both sides are 13psi
EGT's are getting over 1000* our temp prob does not go over so it stops @ 1000 and its right when it breaks up as well
Tuning info:
10* timing at peak tq and 18* by the time it breaks up @ 5500rpm
131 intake air temps at the throttle body
AFR's 11.5:1 goes extreme rich at break up 9.5:1
Ambient temps 85*
Spark plugs are NGK IFR6AIX
Ok,
I think at this point if your wanting to get this kit to work changes in the design are likely going to be inevitable. But the first variable that I didn't raise previously because I assumed it; but are you completely confident that its not in the tuning you guys are doing? If not your back to the basics of diagnosing the issue at hand.
The symptoms that your describing and dealing with immediately bring a few common issues to the front of my mind that I've seen before.
1. Are the spark plugs of right resistance to be using and tighten the gap. I know a few serious (fast) forced induction guys that swear by .022-.026” gaps. Gaps that small will tend to misfire slightly at idle, but will run fine when pushed. The other side effect of small gaps is that the plug runs hotter, so you really don’t want to run a smaller gap then optimal either. But for testing I would try.
2. Fuel....Have your tried running race fuel/different fuel "not sure if your on E85" and is the outcome the same?
3. Your back pressure stated is definitely in the "Goldie Lox's Zone" so I would personally let go of the though that the turbos are insufficient at this point in time. Turbulence is what I think your fighting with your spark issue at high RPMS/High boost. And again your stating its happening from boost 11-15, just because the boost number is what the cars can spin on the factory blower is irrelevant to your set up now. Volume is vastly different from turbo to turbo and not even comparable to a supercharger really. So I would suggest dropping the boost starting down around 6-8 psi and see if you can make a clean pass. I'd be willing to bet that if break up still does occur it would be at a much later RPMs, assuming the fuel is quality and spark plugs above are correct.
4. But really the best way to see whats going on is diagnosing the issue to the best you guys can and not throw parts at it until you've can make more or less an educated guess. As SirBoostAlot stated even though he and I may disagree on the problem, a scope is a must to have at this point. You will be able to tell exactly whats going on with the Primary and Secondary ignition along with and more importantly the Firing voltage, Firing line, and burn time. This will tell you whats going on inside the cylinders more or less. You will be able to tell if its spark blow out and on what cylinders. Especially if your having issues on the intake side with turbulence it may be isolated to a few cylinders but i'm still going to go with its the turbulence in the exhaust and and scavenging effects causing an inefficient exhaust stroke and helping lead to the high EGTS as well.
And sorry about the lengthy previous post's I was travelling yesterday and had down times in the airports so was typing everything via cell phone.
Last edited by 1ForcedBenz; 08-07-2014 at 11:44 AM.
08-07-2014, 11:59 AM
#481
Member
First of all, this is in no way shape or form the same as 2 4 cyl engines. The bore is bigger and the stroke is longer and anyway you want to look at it aside from the fact that it has four pistons and 4 rods it has virtually nothing in common with a 4 cyl. CFM, VE, Volume are all totally different than a 4 cyl. To compare it to that is foolish.
Second, all gt30s are small turbos in the turbo world. While they may be great for porsches or other six cylinder twin turbo applications and good for 4 cylinder turbo applications, they simply cannot flow enough air on the exhaust side to keep from building back pressure on a twin turbo v8. The wheels and housings are just not big enough on the gt30 turbos. All twin turbo setups in the v8 world are larger t4 based exhaust sides because of the shear volume of the exhaust gas. 6.0L LQ4 LSX single turbos use 1.32 a/r T6 housing on the exhaust side with full spool achieved on average by 3200 rpm. 6.0L LSX engines are 2 valves per cylinder 4.00" bore and 3.6" stroke for comparison purposes. With all of that in mind, I could never see putting twin gt35Rs on this engine without it choking. While it may work somewhat, it certainly wouldn't be the ideal setup.
Third, as I said before, anytime you have a turbo application it is of ZERO and I repeat ZERO benefit to have a long intake runner manifold setup. IT has been proven time after time after time after time. It kills the power up top in favor of making low end torque. If you want low end torque, you should stick with the supercharger. Turbos are designed to flow on the upper end of the rpm band because they are LAGGY. Think about it. Furthermore, tell me exactly when you need low end torque while racing? This car was obviously not built for road racing. I assume its going after a drag racing record. When drag racing, you are always in the upper rpms.
I am really not trying to be an *******, but there is a TON of misinformation in this thread. Proven misinformation. This must be corrected in order for this forum to grow.
Second, all gt30s are small turbos in the turbo world. While they may be great for porsches or other six cylinder twin turbo applications and good for 4 cylinder turbo applications, they simply cannot flow enough air on the exhaust side to keep from building back pressure on a twin turbo v8. The wheels and housings are just not big enough on the gt30 turbos. All twin turbo setups in the v8 world are larger t4 based exhaust sides because of the shear volume of the exhaust gas. 6.0L LQ4 LSX single turbos use 1.32 a/r T6 housing on the exhaust side with full spool achieved on average by 3200 rpm. 6.0L LSX engines are 2 valves per cylinder 4.00" bore and 3.6" stroke for comparison purposes. With all of that in mind, I could never see putting twin gt35Rs on this engine without it choking. While it may work somewhat, it certainly wouldn't be the ideal setup.
Third, as I said before, anytime you have a turbo application it is of ZERO and I repeat ZERO benefit to have a long intake runner manifold setup. IT has been proven time after time after time after time. It kills the power up top in favor of making low end torque. If you want low end torque, you should stick with the supercharger. Turbos are designed to flow on the upper end of the rpm band because they are LAGGY. Think about it. Furthermore, tell me exactly when you need low end torque while racing? This car was obviously not built for road racing. I assume its going after a drag racing record. When drag racing, you are always in the upper rpms.
I am really not trying to be an *******, but there is a TON of misinformation in this thread. Proven misinformation. This must be corrected in order for this forum to grow.
08-07-2014, 12:22 PM
#482
First of all, this is in no way shape or form the same as 2 4 cyl engines. The bore is bigger and the stroke is longer and anyway you want to look at it aside from the fact that it has four pistons and 4 rods it has virtually nothing in common with a 4 cyl. CFM, VE, Volume are all totally different than a 4 cyl. To compare it to that is foolish.
Second, all gt30s are small turbos in the turbo world. While they may be great for porsches or other six cylinder twin turbo applications and good for 4 cylinder turbo applications, they simply cannot flow enough air on the exhaust side to keep from building back pressure on a twin turbo v8. The wheels and housings are just not big enough on the gt30 turbos. All twin turbo setups in the v8 world are larger t4 based exhaust sides because of the shear volume of the exhaust gas. 6.0L LQ4 LSX single turbos use 1.32 a/r T6 housing on the exhaust side with full spool achieved on average by 3200 rpm. 6.0L LSX engines are 2 valves per cylinder 4.00" bore and 3.6" stroke for comparison purposes. With all of that in mind, I could never see putting twin gt35Rs on this engine without it choking. While it may work somewhat, it certainly wouldn't be the ideal setup.
Third, as I said before, anytime you have a turbo application it is of ZERO and I repeat ZERO benefit to have a long intake runner manifold setup. IT has been proven time after time after time after time. It kills the power up top in favor of making low end torque. If you want low end torque, you should stick with the supercharger. Turbos are designed to flow on the upper end of the rpm band because they are LAGGY. Think about it. Furthermore, tell me exactly when you need low end torque while racing? This car was obviously not built for road racing. I assume its going after a drag racing record. When drag racing, you are always in the upper rpms.
I am really not trying to be an *******, but there is a TON of misinformation in this thread. Proven misinformation. This must be corrected in order for this forum to grow.
Second, all gt30s are small turbos in the turbo world. While they may be great for porsches or other six cylinder twin turbo applications and good for 4 cylinder turbo applications, they simply cannot flow enough air on the exhaust side to keep from building back pressure on a twin turbo v8. The wheels and housings are just not big enough on the gt30 turbos. All twin turbo setups in the v8 world are larger t4 based exhaust sides because of the shear volume of the exhaust gas. 6.0L LQ4 LSX single turbos use 1.32 a/r T6 housing on the exhaust side with full spool achieved on average by 3200 rpm. 6.0L LSX engines are 2 valves per cylinder 4.00" bore and 3.6" stroke for comparison purposes. With all of that in mind, I could never see putting twin gt35Rs on this engine without it choking. While it may work somewhat, it certainly wouldn't be the ideal setup.
Third, as I said before, anytime you have a turbo application it is of ZERO and I repeat ZERO benefit to have a long intake runner manifold setup. IT has been proven time after time after time after time. It kills the power up top in favor of making low end torque. If you want low end torque, you should stick with the supercharger. Turbos are designed to flow on the upper end of the rpm band because they are LAGGY. Think about it. Furthermore, tell me exactly when you need low end torque while racing? This car was obviously not built for road racing. I assume its going after a drag racing record. When drag racing, you are always in the upper rpms.
I am really not trying to be an *******, but there is a TON of misinformation in this thread. Proven misinformation. This must be corrected in order for this forum to grow.
Although I agree with some points your raising about the intake runner lengths, turbo lag, and low end. I would have to disagree on the the turbo sizing, your saying that there way to small, but there not running into high back pressure "actually have very low backpressure to boost ratio at 15psi", or the turbos running out of breath according to all the information provided.
For example your using a blanket statement that GT30's are to small for every v8 twin turbo setup basically. I would disagree, with that being said your logic would only be multiplied by the fact that the 600's/65's/black series all use the same K24 style turbos, but with each having either a slightly larger hot side wheel respectively. And do you think they are lacking in power? Now yes they run out of breath once tuned at high rpms and start pushing hot air, but I know for a fact they start running Boost to back pressure ratio's nearing 1:2+ so that's when you know your asking to much out of a turbo...Not maintaining desired boost and high back pressure are the signs. There having neither issue, as I said the other day they may be inadequate once all things are in harmony and redline RPMS and high boost, but there issue currently is nowhere near indicative of undersized turbos. And again all in my opinion. The new Biturbo V8s as well utilize small turbos, and there good for WHP in 600's, and those as well once tuned are running a less then desired ratio. So they as well hit the wall but the symptoms can be measured by there back pressure and loss of boost at high RPMS.
08-07-2014, 12:31 PM
#483
Member
Although I agree with some points your raising about the intake runner lengths, turbo lag, and low end. I would have to disagree on the the turbo sizing, your saying that there way to small, but there not running into high back pressure "actually have very low backpressure to boost ratio at 15psi", or the turbos running out of breath according to all the information provided.
For example your using a blanket statement that GT30's are to small for every v8 twin turbo setup basically. I would disagree, with that being said your logic would only be multiplied by the fact that the 600's/65's/black series all use the same K24 style turbos, but with each having either a slightly larger hot side wheel respectively. And do you think they are lacking in power? Now yes they run out of breath once tuned at high rpms and start pushing hot air, but I know for a fact they start running Boost to back pressure ratio's nearing 1:2+ so that's when you know your asking to much out of a turbo...Not maintaining desired boost and high back pressure are the signs. There having neither issue, as I said the other day they may be inadequate once all things are in harmony and redline RPMS and high boost, but there issue currently is nowhere near indicative of undersized turbos. And again all in my opinion. The new Biturbo V8s as well utilize small turbos, and there good for WHP in 600's, and those as well once tuned are running a less then desired ratio. So they as well hit the wall but the symptoms can be measured by there back pressure and loss of boost at high RPMS.
For example your using a blanket statement that GT30's are to small for every v8 twin turbo setup basically. I would disagree, with that being said your logic would only be multiplied by the fact that the 600's/65's/black series all use the same K24 style turbos, but with each having either a slightly larger hot side wheel respectively. And do you think they are lacking in power? Now yes they run out of breath once tuned at high rpms and start pushing hot air, but I know for a fact they start running Boost to back pressure ratio's nearing 1:2+ so that's when you know your asking to much out of a turbo...Not maintaining desired boost and high back pressure are the signs. There having neither issue, as I said the other day they may be inadequate once all things are in harmony and redline RPMS and high boost, but there issue currently is nowhere near indicative of undersized turbos. And again all in my opinion. The new Biturbo V8s as well utilize small turbos, and there good for WHP in 600's, and those as well once tuned are running a less then desired ratio. So they as well hit the wall but the symptoms can be measured by there back pressure and loss of boost at high RPMS.
08-07-2014, 12:53 PM
#484
I don't think that is there end game is 600whp. And I'm not entirely sure what there peak HP has been yet, but it seems there already nearly eclipsing 600whp and the ratio isn't even at 1:1 yet so there's plenty of breath left in those turbos. So lets say the turbos end up being capable of only pushing around 680-700whp before the ratio gets to lets say 1:1.5. You've got your self one hell of a street car, with properly sized turbos to have nearly no lag, and pushing a stock engine to around to even lets say 675whp is getting risky anyways. So for a kit that performs consistently and is running in its efficiency range and makes that kind of WHP is beyond better then over spinning the blower out of its V.E. just to hit 600whp on its best day. And it being a one run and done car. My view on the matter at least.
08-07-2014, 01:22 PM
#485
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05 Evo, Discovery II
actually garth built the intake manifold for powerhouse. they are just about neighbors. garth knows more about the ttcls than you realize.
craig your turbos aren't to small. don't think of your engine as a 8 cal v8 but rather 2 4 cylinder motors. you are running a twin setup so the 400 rwhp each turbo is capable of is plenty for each side. with a .82 a/r your spool starts abut 3500 rpm. going to a larger a/r will increase the lag time and your going to run out of peak rpm before your turbos reach peak efficiency . if you had a supra that peaks at 9000 rpm you can run huge turbos that don't start until 5000 rm. running the 3071 may not be the most optimum turbo for your car but it can produce more power than you ever had on a s/c setup
btw i see a max of 12 psi on my emap sensors.
craig your turbos aren't to small. don't think of your engine as a 8 cal v8 but rather 2 4 cylinder motors. you are running a twin setup so the 400 rwhp each turbo is capable of is plenty for each side. with a .82 a/r your spool starts abut 3500 rpm. going to a larger a/r will increase the lag time and your going to run out of peak rpm before your turbos reach peak efficiency . if you had a supra that peaks at 9000 rpm you can run huge turbos that don't start until 5000 rm. running the 3071 may not be the most optimum turbo for your car but it can produce more power than you ever had on a s/c setup
btw i see a max of 12 psi on my emap sensors.
ACTUALLY, Garth DID NOT build that intake manifold. Garth isn't even a fabricator, he's a tuner. Not once was the CLS55TT at Undercover Performance. It was 100 percent built under the roof of Powerhaus Performance. Get your facts in line.
If you must know, Keith Mease fabricated the turbo kit ( he was working for Powerhaus Performance at the time). The conception, design, and installation was handled by Powerhaus. He no longer works with PP and if you google his name you can figure out why.
The kit was just built as a project to show people that it could be done. It broke the record as the quickest and fastest CLS55 AMG and was sold to move on to other projects. The car ran 100 percent but to get it to the next level they decided it was facing the point of diminishing returns. The ecu in fact does a lot of funky things that create hurdles which you must overcome to get the car to run CONSISTENTLY.
Chawkins, what are you using to trick the supercharger clutch?
08-07-2014, 01:35 PM
#486
Member
I don't think that is there end game is 600whp. And I'm not entirely sure what there peak HP has been yet, but it seems there already nearly eclipsing 600whp and the ratio isn't even at 1:1 yet so there's plenty of breath left in those turbos. So lets say the turbos end up being capable of only pushing around 680-700whp before the ratio gets to lets say 1:1.5. You've got your self one hell of a street car, with properly sized turbos to have nearly no lag, and pushing a stock engine to around to even lets say 675whp is getting risky anyways. So for a kit that performs consistently and is running in its efficiency range and makes that kind of WHP is beyond better then over spinning the blower out of its V.E. just to hit 600whp on its best day. And it being a one run and done car. My view on the matter at least.
08-07-2014, 01:50 PM
#487
That expenditure would be absurd to pickup 75-100 whp over what the blower can do. Go big or go home. Realistically, would you be happy with 100 whp over the present setup for 10K? If so, bring your car to me and I will help you out with a 175 shot of NOS for 10K. I will even throw in the bottle warmer and remote bottle opener.
Also how many E55's are cracking 600whp on DD dyno, that paid someone to put it together for them for under 5-8k?? But that's besides the point, I never once saw the cost of the kit posted or that the money it costed to be an issue....Maybe I missed that but just because you wouldn't spend the money on a kit if "working properly" that delivers over 675whp consistently doesn't mean others wouldn't. Some people understand the words Consistently and Efficiently.
If it's easy why is your car over 90whp short of the 600 mark?
08-07-2014, 02:00 PM
#488
Super Member
First of all, this is in no way shape or form the same as 2 4 cyl engines. The bore is bigger and the stroke is longer and anyway you want to look at it aside from the fact that it has four pistons and 4 rods it has virtually nothing in common with a 4 cyl. CFM, VE, Volume are all totally different than a 4 cyl. To compare it to that is foolish.
Air in and air out... four sequential fires... one turbo per bank. In theory, it actually IS two 4 cylinder engines. These engines share a common intake and crank output. Are you saying that a 3800 Chevy is in no way a Chevy 350 with the back two cylinders lopped off? That's actually exactly what it is; CFM, VE, volume... these are all cylinder head dependent and when you consider each bank its own entity (as does Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, among others), then it CAN be considered two 4 cylinders.
Second, all gt30s are small turbos in the turbo world. While they may be great for porsches or other six cylinder twin turbo applications and good for 4 cylinder turbo applications, they simply cannot flow enough air on the exhaust side to keep from building back pressure on a twin turbo v8. The wheels and housings are just not big enough on the gt30 turbos. All twin turbo setups in the v8 world are larger t4 based exhaust sides because of the shear volume of the exhaust gas. 6.0L LQ4 LSX single turbos use 1.32 a/r T6 housing on the exhaust side with full spool achieved on average by 3200 rpm. 6.0L LSX engines are 2 valves per cylinder 4.00" bore and 3.6" stroke for comparison purposes. With all of that in mind, I could never see putting twin gt35Rs on this engine without it choking. While it may work somewhat, it certainly wouldn't be the ideal setup.
You just flagged your own misinformation. First, a 1.32 a/r T6 is ****ing huge even for a 6.0L. Second, even though LS engines are 2v, they are cathedral port... this means they flow GREAT for what they are. Third, full spool by 3200rpm on a 1.32 a/r? Is full spool 4psi? That's about all you're getting without a quickspool valve or nitrous. Twin .82s or similar on a v8 application have been proven time and time again for BIG power. If you'd like links, I can provide them from all over the country, including my backyard.
Third, as I said before, anytime you have a turbo application it is of ZERO and I repeat ZERO benefit to have a long intake runner manifold setup. IT has been proven time after time after time after time. It kills the power up top in favor of making low end torque. If you want low end torque, you should stick with the supercharger. Turbos are designed to flow on the upper end of the rpm band because they are LAGGY. Think about it. Furthermore, tell me exactly when you need low end torque while racing? This car was obviously not built for road racing. I assume its going after a drag racing record. When drag racing, you are always in the upper rpms.
Actually, there's plenty of data to support otherwise. Yes, a short runner will yield the highest PEAK power, while a long runner will yield the best low end torque. The goal is to design the system based on the goals you're trying to achieve. If you want a dyno queen, all that matters is peak power. If you want streetability and fast track times, you want the highest AVERAGE power (aka area under the curve). You will NOT be faster with a power peak.
I am really not trying to be an *******, but there is a TON of misinformation in this thread. Proven misinformation. This must be corrected in order for this forum to grow.
It sure does.
Air in and air out... four sequential fires... one turbo per bank. In theory, it actually IS two 4 cylinder engines. These engines share a common intake and crank output. Are you saying that a 3800 Chevy is in no way a Chevy 350 with the back two cylinders lopped off? That's actually exactly what it is; CFM, VE, volume... these are all cylinder head dependent and when you consider each bank its own entity (as does Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW, among others), then it CAN be considered two 4 cylinders.
Second, all gt30s are small turbos in the turbo world. While they may be great for porsches or other six cylinder twin turbo applications and good for 4 cylinder turbo applications, they simply cannot flow enough air on the exhaust side to keep from building back pressure on a twin turbo v8. The wheels and housings are just not big enough on the gt30 turbos. All twin turbo setups in the v8 world are larger t4 based exhaust sides because of the shear volume of the exhaust gas. 6.0L LQ4 LSX single turbos use 1.32 a/r T6 housing on the exhaust side with full spool achieved on average by 3200 rpm. 6.0L LSX engines are 2 valves per cylinder 4.00" bore and 3.6" stroke for comparison purposes. With all of that in mind, I could never see putting twin gt35Rs on this engine without it choking. While it may work somewhat, it certainly wouldn't be the ideal setup.
You just flagged your own misinformation. First, a 1.32 a/r T6 is ****ing huge even for a 6.0L. Second, even though LS engines are 2v, they are cathedral port... this means they flow GREAT for what they are. Third, full spool by 3200rpm on a 1.32 a/r? Is full spool 4psi? That's about all you're getting without a quickspool valve or nitrous. Twin .82s or similar on a v8 application have been proven time and time again for BIG power. If you'd like links, I can provide them from all over the country, including my backyard.
Third, as I said before, anytime you have a turbo application it is of ZERO and I repeat ZERO benefit to have a long intake runner manifold setup. IT has been proven time after time after time after time. It kills the power up top in favor of making low end torque. If you want low end torque, you should stick with the supercharger. Turbos are designed to flow on the upper end of the rpm band because they are LAGGY. Think about it. Furthermore, tell me exactly when you need low end torque while racing? This car was obviously not built for road racing. I assume its going after a drag racing record. When drag racing, you are always in the upper rpms.
Actually, there's plenty of data to support otherwise. Yes, a short runner will yield the highest PEAK power, while a long runner will yield the best low end torque. The goal is to design the system based on the goals you're trying to achieve. If you want a dyno queen, all that matters is peak power. If you want streetability and fast track times, you want the highest AVERAGE power (aka area under the curve). You will NOT be faster with a power peak.
I am really not trying to be an *******, but there is a TON of misinformation in this thread. Proven misinformation. This must be corrected in order for this forum to grow.
It sure does.
2319, I'd like to know your background if you're so confident that everyone else is wrong. I'm a degreed automotive engineer who's designed turbo systems for about a dozen platforms, both for OEM manufacturers and aftermarket.
Last edited by rockthemullet; 08-07-2014 at 02:03 PM.
08-07-2014, 02:09 PM
#489
Super Member
Twin GT35s in all kinds of applications... even a few LS motors, just for you.
Also, no one who uses "GT30"/"35"/"35R"/etc terminology knows wtf they're talking about. Say it's a 7186 or a 7076 or a 7682, for example... the inducer and the exducer, THESE are the numbers that matter when talking in terms of CFM capability.
Also, no one who uses "GT30"/"35"/"35R"/etc terminology knows wtf they're talking about. Say it's a 7186 or a 7076 or a 7682, for example... the inducer and the exducer, THESE are the numbers that matter when talking in terms of CFM capability.
Last edited by rockthemullet; 08-07-2014 at 02:18 PM.
08-07-2014, 02:09 PM
#490
Out Of Control!!
ACTUALLY, Garth DID NOT build that intake manifold. Garth isn't even a fabricator, he's a tuner. Not once was the CLS55TT at Undercover Performance. It was 100 percent built under the roof of Powerhaus Performance. Get your facts in line.
If you must know, Keith Mease fabricated the turbo kit ( he was working for Powerhaus Performance at the time). The conception, design, and installation was handled by Powerhaus. He no longer works with PP and if you google his name you can figure out why.
The kit was just built as a project to show people that it could be done. It broke the record as the quickest and fastest CLS55 AMG and was sold to move on to other projects. The car ran 100 percent but to get it to the next level they decided it was facing the point of diminishing returns. The ecu in fact does a lot of funky things that create hurdles which you must overcome to get the car to run CONSISTENTLY.
Only possible one I can think of is E55AMGRocket but I don't remember if it was with spray or without that he cracked 600whp.Everyone is an expert on the internet, didn't you know? lol. I'm glad some people on here actually know what they are talking about.
08-07-2014, 02:27 PM
#491
Super Member
Area Under The Curve
Notice we said "the rpm range where the engine spends most of its time." Merely considering peak numbers is misleading. In almost every case, it is better to look at the average area under the power curve rather than simply at peak numbers, because a broader, flatter curve generally delivers superior performance to a peaky curve. As SuperFlow's Harold Bettes puts it, "Some engines [that] have a power curve that looks like a tabletop [instead of] a mountain range in profile are pure pleasures to drive." Comp Cams' Scooter Brothers adds, "If it's a Comp Eliminator, Pro Stock, or Winston Cup car, maybe peak power is the answer," because these engines operate in a relatively narrow rpm band. "But for the dual-purpose car, torque must be flat for an extended period of time."
According to David Reher, "We look at the average horsepower within the rpm range we run in; we don't look at the peak number. Anytime you can pick up the average, that's an increase. But you don't want to lose power somewhere else."
"The wider the powerband, the better the acceleration," says turbo wizard Ken Duttweiler. "The best examples are variable-cam engines like the Honda VTEC-they'll pull down to 500 rpm and accelerate to 7,000!" And Norm Brandes at Westech Automotive (of Wisconsin) adds that high-strung, peaky motors "are easier to get out of tune. A carb on a good 'torque' motor sees a much stronger manifold signal, so it's more forgiving. The same holds true with electronic engine management; the computer will be much happier with a broad curve."
Generally the rpm range that is most important is the area between peak torque rpm and peak power rpm. The car should be geared so that you shift 400-500 rpm beyond peak power, and the engine "falls back" to just beyond the peak torque point. Assuming a similar operating range, the engine with the greater area under the power curve between the power and torque rpm peak points makes for the better combination.
On an engine with the most "area under the curve," the torque falls off less rapidly after hitting its peak, so in that sense you are always building for best overall torque, in order to produce the best overall power. This is where Scooter Brothers of Comp Cams gets his axiom, "build for torque, and horsepower will take care of itself," but remember the end goal is always to generate maximum power within your engine's operating rpm range. "There's not one thing that isn't a tradeoff," David Reher points out. "That's the most critical thing in engine-building: deciding where and when to make those tradeoffs." Harold Bettes adds, "It is the package with the greatest area under the power curve that has the advantage."
Notice we said "the rpm range where the engine spends most of its time." Merely considering peak numbers is misleading. In almost every case, it is better to look at the average area under the power curve rather than simply at peak numbers, because a broader, flatter curve generally delivers superior performance to a peaky curve. As SuperFlow's Harold Bettes puts it, "Some engines [that] have a power curve that looks like a tabletop [instead of] a mountain range in profile are pure pleasures to drive." Comp Cams' Scooter Brothers adds, "If it's a Comp Eliminator, Pro Stock, or Winston Cup car, maybe peak power is the answer," because these engines operate in a relatively narrow rpm band. "But for the dual-purpose car, torque must be flat for an extended period of time."
According to David Reher, "We look at the average horsepower within the rpm range we run in; we don't look at the peak number. Anytime you can pick up the average, that's an increase. But you don't want to lose power somewhere else."
"The wider the powerband, the better the acceleration," says turbo wizard Ken Duttweiler. "The best examples are variable-cam engines like the Honda VTEC-they'll pull down to 500 rpm and accelerate to 7,000!" And Norm Brandes at Westech Automotive (of Wisconsin) adds that high-strung, peaky motors "are easier to get out of tune. A carb on a good 'torque' motor sees a much stronger manifold signal, so it's more forgiving. The same holds true with electronic engine management; the computer will be much happier with a broad curve."
Generally the rpm range that is most important is the area between peak torque rpm and peak power rpm. The car should be geared so that you shift 400-500 rpm beyond peak power, and the engine "falls back" to just beyond the peak torque point. Assuming a similar operating range, the engine with the greater area under the power curve between the power and torque rpm peak points makes for the better combination.
On an engine with the most "area under the curve," the torque falls off less rapidly after hitting its peak, so in that sense you are always building for best overall torque, in order to produce the best overall power. This is where Scooter Brothers of Comp Cams gets his axiom, "build for torque, and horsepower will take care of itself," but remember the end goal is always to generate maximum power within your engine's operating rpm range. "There's not one thing that isn't a tradeoff," David Reher points out. "That's the most critical thing in engine-building: deciding where and when to make those tradeoffs." Harold Bettes adds, "It is the package with the greatest area under the power curve that has the advantage."
Comp Cams, Crane, Dick Miller Racing, Reher-Morrison Racing Engines, SFC... they all must not know what they're talking about.
Craig, I apologize for the rant. I have seen other instances of 2319 badgering others' "misinformation" and I needed to sit him back down.
08-07-2014, 02:29 PM
#492
MBWorld Fanatic!
ACTUALLY, Garth DID NOT build that intake manifold. Garth isn't even a fabricator, he's a tuner. Not once was the CLS55TT at Undercover Performance. It was 100 percent built under the roof of Powerhaus Performance. Get your facts in line.
If you must know, Keith Mease fabricated the turbo kit ( he was working for Powerhaus Performance at the time). The conception, design, and installation was handled by Powerhaus. He no longer works with PP and if you google his name you can figure out why.
The kit was just built as a project to show people that it could be done. It broke the record as the quickest and fastest CLS55 AMG and was sold to move on to other projects. The car ran 100 percent but to get it to the next level they decided it was facing the point of diminishing returns. The ecu in fact does a lot of funky things that create hurdles which you must overcome to get the car to run CONSISTENTLY.
Chawkins, what are you using to trick the supercharger clutch?
08-07-2014, 02:33 PM
#493
Member
I guess it all depends on your end game. I hardly think the LS guys are looking for dyno numbers. Since the ls platform has been around since the late 90s, I bet these guys might actually know something about drag racing and turbochargers. I bet there is more than one that actually runs 9s. And if you didn't already know, let me educate you on why whp is important. It directly correlates to your mph in the 1/4.
Read here about blue chevy's spool up and check his time in his signature.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=436646&page=2
Read here about blue chevy's spool up and check his time in his signature.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=436646&page=2
08-07-2014, 02:38 PM
#494
Super Member
I guess it all depends on your end game. I hardly think the LS guys are looking for dyno numbers. Since the ls platform has been around since the late 90s, I bet these guys might actually know something about drag racing and turbochargers. I bet there is more than one that actually runs 9s. And if you didn't already know, let me educate you on why whp is important. It directly correlates to your mph in the 1/4.
Read here about blue chevy's spool up and check his time in his signature.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=436646&page=2
Read here about blue chevy's spool up and check his time in his signature.
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...=436646&page=2
I personally know plenty of people that have gone 9s, as I have with them.
Please do more research before polluting the threads here.
Last edited by rockthemullet; 08-07-2014 at 02:41 PM.
08-07-2014, 02:41 PM
#495
I rest my case. 320 dreamer don't talk about things that you don't know anything about. It just spreads misinformation.
Is there anyone North of 600whp with an AMG blower and no nitrous? Only possible one I can think of is E55AMGRocket but I don't remember if it was with spray or without that he cracked 600whp.
Everyone is an expert on the internet, didn't you know? lol. I'm glad some people on here actually know what they are talking about.
Is there anyone North of 600whp with an AMG blower and no nitrous?
Only possible one I can think of is E55AMGRocket but I don't remember if it was with spray or without that he cracked 600whp.Everyone is an expert on the internet, didn't you know? lol. I'm glad some people on here actually know what they are talking about.
It's really why I have always and will continue again to stay away from most forum's. The few and far between that have a background in or experience with subject matters always seem to be made into martyrs while only trying to be of help. Clearly you can't diagnosis or fix and issues behind a keyboard, but can be insightful.
And BlackBenz even more to the point, your exactly right who is turning out those numbers on a stock blower without spray, I'd never heard of it either but don't stay up with the forums either. His talking points are wildly off topic, irrelevant, and largely wrong.
08-07-2014, 02:45 PM
#496
Super Member
08-07-2014, 02:53 PM
#497
MBWorld Fanatic!
The BIP Dynamics reads 16% lower than most Dynojets. FASN8N made 365rwhp bone stock on our dyno, and 430rwhp bonestock on a mustang shops Dynojet here in town. My car made 597rwhp on the 50 shot at BIP's dyno, and made 680rwhp on a different dynojet here in town.
Right now the TT kit is at 537rwhp on the BIP dyno which puts us at 622rwhp on a Dynojet. I believe paul was around 650rwhp when everything stopped.
Right now the TT kit is at 537rwhp on the BIP dyno which puts us at 622rwhp on a Dynojet. I believe paul was around 650rwhp when everything stopped.
08-07-2014, 03:16 PM
#498
Member
That truck is running the 1/8th at 7.73 at 92. WOW! GT35s and it traps and ets the same as my Benz on street tires, full weight. NO MPH=NO HP!
A 9 second pass in the v8 world is AVERAGE. 8's are above average. Most LSX guys are not shooting for a high 9 pass at low 140s.
Talk to Lil John at Lil John Motorsports LSX V8 turbo guru. Talk to Jose at Forced Inductions Borg Warner Turbo Specialist. Talk to Robert at Forced Performance builder of the world's best turbos. Talk to Marco Passante at Magnus Motorsports engine builder of the fastest 4g63 on the planet. Talk to Jeremy "Fathouse" Howell at Fathouse Fabrications perhaps one of the best fabrication and tuners all of kinds of cars. Call David Buschur at Buschur Racing first 8,9,10,11,12 sec 4g63. Talk to Martin Musial at AMS in Chicago Alpha Omega GTR. Talk to Myles Kerr or Lucas English at English Racing World's Fastest 1/2 mile Acura Integra and World's Quickest and Fastest Drag GTR respectively. Talk to anyone and ask them if they would put gt30s of any variant on a 5.5L V8. Talk to Eddie Bello at Eddie Bello Racing, Fastest 1/2 mile 911 on earth. Talk to Kevin at Underground Racing, home of the exotic twin turbo lambos, ferraris, vipers, NONE OF THOSE GUYS PUSH THE ENVELOPE WITH A GT30 PERIOD! And I hope to hell you don't think that a e55 with 3076 71 etc is going to push it. Then, tell them about your engineering degree and see if they give a damn. They can show you real world performance. Horsepower numbers. ET/MPH timeslips.
A 9 second pass in the v8 world is AVERAGE. 8's are above average. Most LSX guys are not shooting for a high 9 pass at low 140s.
Talk to Lil John at Lil John Motorsports LSX V8 turbo guru. Talk to Jose at Forced Inductions Borg Warner Turbo Specialist. Talk to Robert at Forced Performance builder of the world's best turbos. Talk to Marco Passante at Magnus Motorsports engine builder of the fastest 4g63 on the planet. Talk to Jeremy "Fathouse" Howell at Fathouse Fabrications perhaps one of the best fabrication and tuners all of kinds of cars. Call David Buschur at Buschur Racing first 8,9,10,11,12 sec 4g63. Talk to Martin Musial at AMS in Chicago Alpha Omega GTR. Talk to Myles Kerr or Lucas English at English Racing World's Fastest 1/2 mile Acura Integra and World's Quickest and Fastest Drag GTR respectively. Talk to anyone and ask them if they would put gt30s of any variant on a 5.5L V8. Talk to Eddie Bello at Eddie Bello Racing, Fastest 1/2 mile 911 on earth. Talk to Kevin at Underground Racing, home of the exotic twin turbo lambos, ferraris, vipers, NONE OF THOSE GUYS PUSH THE ENVELOPE WITH A GT30 PERIOD! And I hope to hell you don't think that a e55 with 3076 71 etc is going to push it. Then, tell them about your engineering degree and see if they give a damn. They can show you real world performance. Horsepower numbers. ET/MPH timeslips.
08-07-2014, 03:38 PM
#499
Super Member
Talk to Lil John at Lil John Motorsports LSX V8 turbo guru. Talk to Jose at Forced Inductions Borg Warner Turbo Specialist.
I get my turbos from Jose... for my cobra specifically.
Talk to Robert at Forced Performance builder of the world's best turbos. Talk to Marco Passante at Magnus Motorsports engine builder of the fastest 4g63 on the planet. Talk to Jeremy "Fathouse" Howell at Fathouse Fabrications perhaps one of the best fabrication and tuners all of kinds of cars.
I'll be talking to Hess (from FP), Marco, and Jeremy all in person next weekend at the track... will you be there?
Call David Buschur at Buschur Racing first 8,9,10,11,12 sec 4g63. Talk to Martin Musial at AMS in Chicago Alpha Omega GTR. Talk to Myles Kerr or Lucas English at English Racing World's Fastest 1/2 mile Acura Integra and World's Quickest and Fastest Drag GTR respectively.
Not a fan of Dave, but I can ask Martin and Myles next weekend too.
Talk to Kevin at Underground Racing, home of the exotic twin turbo lambos, ferraris, vipers
Would you like to three way conference call Kevin? I have his cell.
NONE OF THOSE GUYS PUSH THE ENVELOPE WITH A GT30 PERIOD! And I hope to hell you don't think that a e55 with 3076 71 etc is going to push it.
Who said Craig was trying to push the envelope on a starter (supposed to be bolt on) kit? The point I made is that at 537whp, a pair of "GT30s" is absolutely NOT THE ISSUE
I get my turbos from Jose... for my cobra specifically.
Talk to Robert at Forced Performance builder of the world's best turbos. Talk to Marco Passante at Magnus Motorsports engine builder of the fastest 4g63 on the planet. Talk to Jeremy "Fathouse" Howell at Fathouse Fabrications perhaps one of the best fabrication and tuners all of kinds of cars.
I'll be talking to Hess (from FP), Marco, and Jeremy all in person next weekend at the track... will you be there?
Call David Buschur at Buschur Racing first 8,9,10,11,12 sec 4g63. Talk to Martin Musial at AMS in Chicago Alpha Omega GTR. Talk to Myles Kerr or Lucas English at English Racing World's Fastest 1/2 mile Acura Integra and World's Quickest and Fastest Drag GTR respectively.
Not a fan of Dave, but I can ask Martin and Myles next weekend too.
Talk to Kevin at Underground Racing, home of the exotic twin turbo lambos, ferraris, vipers
Would you like to three way conference call Kevin? I have his cell.
NONE OF THOSE GUYS PUSH THE ENVELOPE WITH A GT30 PERIOD! And I hope to hell you don't think that a e55 with 3076 71 etc is going to push it.
Who said Craig was trying to push the envelope on a starter (supposed to be bolt on) kit? The point I made is that at 537whp, a pair of "GT30s" is absolutely NOT THE ISSUE
08-07-2014, 03:51 PM
#500
Super Member
*Edited for prosperity*
Here's Hess from FP last year when we all got smashed at a track event.
Do YOU know the people you referenced?
Here's Hess from FP last year when we all got smashed at a track event.
Do YOU know the people you referenced?
Last edited by rockthemullet; 08-07-2014 at 04:14 PM.
