Stock manifolds are fine, the TT cls has stock manifolds and no issues

 

Heard about it and have decent experience with boosting engines, I don't have affiliation nor know anyone with the supplier or builder of the kit. Chimed in only to see if insight could be given. I don't know what turbos are being used "nor does anyone at this point it seems" or the way there situated and plumbed into the manifolds, or really much about the intake being used. All I was/am trying to contribute with was experience and past issues I've encountered is all. After reading it seems to have been alot of money, time, and effort into finding a resolve. And with that being said to clear the air about if I have any support for the vendor, I would think that if behind the scenes there not wanting to help out and are denying that it's a hardware issue, they should issue a refund in holding and stand behind there product as a gesture of good faith. It's that simple to me they say it works then put up or shut up they need to have a standing offer of refund if it's not performing. So with that said back to the point I was trying to make a 1:1 ratio is basically ideal and as good as it good gets I'm my opinion. In very rare instances and on some diesels I've seen it actually be 1 : .8 under certain conditions with variable vane turbos and 5" exhaust. And I wouldn't nesecarily say it's and intake issue either without more information and pressure readings. Again I'm just trying to help here possibly and maybe I'm just getting in the way as some would see and apologies if taken that way. I just would hate to see more time, money or effort put in and there still be an issue if turbos are changed/reworked or AR housings changed out if there's a hardware problem, plumbing issue, or positioning issues. With not knowing completely what's been diagnosed thus far, I'd suggest making many more pressure readings from various places first. Turbo housing, charge piping pre and post intercooler, immediately pre and post throttle body and the corners of the intake manifold. I know it's time and effort and they may be past wanting to try and get the vendors kit to work which I get completely but it seems like they want it to work if they can. Also invaluable would be egts on each exhaust port. Again I wouldn't think or see how at the point of there issue at the RPMs, back pressure, or power level that those turbos could be at fault. Seems like turbulence possibly exiting the exhaust valves and scavenging may be more of a problem as I said previously preturbine issue.

 

Where are the turbos in relation? I'm not familiar with the build

 

Thank you, exactly my point. And also just because one persons worked is meaningless. The variables outside of that are what matters, for instance the positioning of the turbos, Westgates, piping to the turbo from the stock manifolds, intercooler, intake, and then even more so the fuel, injectors, fuel pressures used, boost controllers, and then the endless compressor maps from one turbo to another. So that hardly matters that if one persons used stock manifolds on them or not. Now some stock vehicles can use factory manifold as Chevy guys have but those manifolds are more of a log style which actually has a nice smoother log style to start with.

 

From what I can remember same location as Chawkins

 

It seems like we have some more people trying to help. Here are the pictures I've scavenged from the thread that may help:

 

Thanks for compiling them, but I still couldn't see from them before how the piping between the manifolds and A/R are worked up. But just from seeing the positioning I would say the runner lengths and design of the stock manifold in conjunction with the hardware being used its likely creating a hurricane of turbulence and inconjunction with scavenging the engines got to be struggling with spark blow out and likely can't atomize well at all. The dyno also is useless in terms of diagnosis with out it having the boost at least laid over the graph, but with that being said I'd bet by looking at the graph the compressor and it's compressor map would showing the turbo boosting heavily starting right around 3700 rpms and coming to the boost "hit" at there point of break up.

 

Yes, that CLS had the turbos positioned in the same location and used the same stock manifolds.

He however had a completely different inatke manifold and used the stock surge tanks and intercooler.

His Turbo size was GTX3076's.

Here is the boost curve and we had boost creep occuring when we had the 38mm waste gates. We switched to 44mm waste gates to rectify the problem.

I personally do not know if the front air to air intercooler could cause this type of issue, but it has blown apart four different times at the seams. We had to re weld the split seams everytime that happened.

Boost and air fuel



Timing and IATs

 

1Forced Benz- if the exhaust were so terrible to cause turbulence , it would result in super high backpressure which isn't even remotely the case here.
Craig, if you do suspect that backpressure on the hotside is affecting things, get a scope/digital engine analyzer hooked up to the plug leads and you can get a better idea of what's happening inside the combustion chamber. I could be wrong, but I really don't think that's the case here.

 

Ok that helps but was pretty much exactly as I said and thought the boost would be coming on and peaking. Also about the wastegates, your almost always better off using the smaller gates then larger for more precise boost control. Boost creep was likely due to an insufficient boost controller, again in my opinion. But looking at your graphs and info I think you'd be wasting time to get different turbos. Those should be sufficient to 750whp with keeping a nice boost to back pressure ratio. And anyways modern turbos are very efficient the smaller the better if you want to keep a fast spool as long as there capable which those should be without much of a second thought with only pushing around 15psi. Again you have to remember boost is irrelevant with turbos as the turbos are made and the compressor maps are much more important on the power you'll be making because so many years other facts come into play and it's all about the volume the entire set up can use vs. boost. So it seems you've no where outgrew the turbos currently. Now if some others have used stock manifolds wether just on the intake with there setup or just the exhaust manifolds in there setups with custom intake or exhaust headers respectively I could buy that. But your setup seems that it's the combination of both insufficient header design and intake side cauing yours to suffer. Change out 1 end and I bet it'd work ok as seems others have, but do a proper exhaust and intake custom of course and you'd have a wonderfully working turbo setup I'd about garuntee that. About the cracked seams seen it before and usually is due to 1 of 2 things . A poor weld/contaminated weld to begin with or its mounted way to tight to the chassis not allowing flex. Hope some of this might be of help.

 

Back pressure and turbulence aren't indicative of one another as a constant. You can have high "back pressure" reversion in the cylinders after and insufficient exhaust stroke due to turbulence which results in the intake stroke under boost being met with fumes and high cylinder temps due to again the scavenging effect. It doesn't have to correlated with high back pressure. And your absolutly right a scope should be used for the ignition. It'd be great to see primary and secondary wave forms and the KV. Again not sure why people are getting there feather ruffled or defensive when I'm not claiming to know a cure yet only be insightful.

 

No feathers ruffled here at all. I understand you're just trying to help the guy as are all the people chiming in on this thread.

Also, take this constructively as you seem to be familiar with the subject matter- Your thoughts would be a lot easier to interpret if you used paragraphs instead of the wall of text.

 

So what you guys are saying is that, the problem could be:

manifolds
to small a turbo
plumbing
intake

It could be anything at this point.

 

I think it is safe to say that the size of the turbos is not causing the specific issue you are trying to diagnose.

 

actually garth built the intake manifold for powerhouse. they are just about neighbors. garth knows more about the ttcls than you realize.

craig your turbos aren't to small. don't think of your engine as a 8 cal v8 but rather 2 4 cylinder motors. you are running a twin setup so the 400 rwhp each turbo is capable of is plenty for each side. with a .82 a/r your spool starts abut 3500 rpm. going to a larger a/r will increase the lag time and your going to run out of peak rpm before your turbos reach peak efficiency . if you had a supra that peaks at 9000 rpm you can run huge turbos that don't start until 5000 rm. running the 3071 may not be the most optimum turbo for your car but it can produce more power than you ever had on a s/c setup

btw i see a max of 12 psi on my emap sensors.

 

Did you ever try running at lower boost levels. Say around 15 psi or 13psi? Does the issue shift in the rpm range at all? It looks like it hits around 15.5 psi and then this happens. Also are the intake air temps the top lines or the bottom lines and is that c or f.

 

Have you measured the boost before and after the intercooler? That would tell you if it is too small and or not able to flow enough air.

 

This kit was sold as a 100% bolt on kit that just needed to be tuned, it clearly is not the case. There are just to many variables that are unknown causing the same issue now for 3 months.

Don't forget Paul ran into the exact same problem with his e55 and the IPS kit. Eurocharged said they were done trying to tune it as it was a hardware issue.

 

That sucks, but understandable.. You had more patience than I would have had. Just for those thinking about attempting this (I saw someone say, :let me take a whack at this").. This is a $7K to $15K effort once you have kit in hand. Is that a fair estimate?

So, New Blower?? Hint Hint / Wink Wink

 

Yea, you have invested a ton of time and money in this project. Definetly can not say you tried. Such a shame as the kit looked promising.

 

Am I mistaken or did it make 120 more HP on Pauls car?

 

Really sorry to hear that man, checked this thread daily. But understandable as others have said, really strange that the CLS TT seems to have worked fine but you keep having unexplainable issues. Can't say that isn't the risk of tuning and building a car, but frustrating nonetheless

 

Time for a Weistec and a small 175 shot.

 

better off with a weistec and custom rear wheels to run a full slick and give it hell.

 

Sucks to hear this Craig, I'm sure you're itching to get back in the drivers seat and give it hell.