Real issues with tuned engine
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Joined: Mar 2010
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
Real issues with tuned engine
Hi all
I have a CL55, but I figured I would get more views over here. Same engine as you guys too.
I have a 180mm EC crank pulley, EC intercooler, new charge cooler pump and a EC map on my CL55.
Due to issues with the tuner that I used in the UK, they didn't do a dyno run, so this is the first time I have an opportunity to get it on one since the tuning. As I'm in the middle of complaints with then, I am reluctant to go back and get them to fix the problem.
My results where a bit sad:
The dyno operator said two things:
1. You would be dynoing 580-590 all day with those mods and
2. Your running very rich.
I have to agree. With an AFR 10.4:1 at the top end, something isn't right.
I have a boost pressure gauge inside the car, and he said he never saw it go above 13psi. With a 180mm crank pulley, I should be running around 14.8psi.
I have a new belt and new SC belt tensioner. I have not heard of the crank pulley, standard upper pulley combo slipping, but you never know?
He thinks its the map, I think There is boost loss somewhere.
Do I look at a) the map b) the SC belt or c) another source of boost loss.
I will be logging my boost pressure soon and will post up the results, I suspect to see it start dropping around 3500rpm.
Thanks all!
I have a CL55, but I figured I would get more views over here. Same engine as you guys too.
I have a 180mm EC crank pulley, EC intercooler, new charge cooler pump and a EC map on my CL55.
Due to issues with the tuner that I used in the UK, they didn't do a dyno run, so this is the first time I have an opportunity to get it on one since the tuning. As I'm in the middle of complaints with then, I am reluctant to go back and get them to fix the problem.
My results where a bit sad:
The dyno operator said two things:
1. You would be dynoing 580-590 all day with those mods and
2. Your running very rich.
I have to agree. With an AFR 10.4:1 at the top end, something isn't right.
I have a boost pressure gauge inside the car, and he said he never saw it go above 13psi. With a 180mm crank pulley, I should be running around 14.8psi.
I have a new belt and new SC belt tensioner. I have not heard of the crank pulley, standard upper pulley combo slipping, but you never know?
He thinks its the map, I think There is boost loss somewhere.
Do I look at a) the map b) the SC belt or c) another source of boost loss.
I will be logging my boost pressure soon and will post up the results, I suspect to see it start dropping around 3500rpm.
Thanks all!
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From: Usa
mgLipGD
Short answer is as you said this is the first time on a dyno. So that means you have "can tune". So it will be conservative as all cars are diff no matter what. So I would suggest a dyno tune with them making corrections remotely or you install logging equipment and log on the street and swap info so adjustments can be made. You likely are leaving power on the table but all the above considered I would say it was a good safe tune.
Also type of dyno makes a diff. Does this dyno operator get many 55K cars to know they should that high on his dyno? If not he is just throwing **** out there. My numbers are below and you can see I am heavily modified and don't hit 544 but that's bc of a diff dyno type. But for that dyno I am at a good spot.
Also type of dyno makes a diff. Does this dyno operator get many 55K cars to know they should that high on his dyno? If not he is just throwing **** out there. My numbers are below and you can see I am heavily modified and don't hit 544 but that's bc of a diff dyno type. But for that dyno I am at a good spot.
Last edited by black06c230; Apr 25, 2015 at 11:31 AM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2010
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
Possibly, I would agree with you but the 2 issues that are outstanding is that the car isn't making the boost it should and the AFR is wayyy to rich. I understand its safe, but its too rich.
So a) what is the reason its not making the correct boost, and b) is the reason for the rich running, due to boost loss or a map commanding too much fuel
I agree that the car should be dyno tuned to get the most of the components added, but I would be expecting 520-530 with a smaller supercharger pulley, I think there is is a bigger issue at play.
As you say, I need to log some information in 3rd and 4th (PSI vs RPM) and see what they show. A boost leak will be obvious if my boost is bouncing around all over the place.
So a) what is the reason its not making the correct boost, and b) is the reason for the rich running, due to boost loss or a map commanding too much fuel
I agree that the car should be dyno tuned to get the most of the components added, but I would be expecting 520-530 with a smaller supercharger pulley, I think there is is a bigger issue at play.
As you say, I need to log some information in 3rd and 4th (PSI vs RPM) and see what they show. A boost leak will be obvious if my boost is bouncing around all over the place.
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2006 E55 AMG
For a canned tune, that AFR looks nice. You are focusing on the very top end only, but without providing IAT's, it could be argued that the car dumps fuel because of high charge temp.
You run the risk of tuning perceived richness out, that is going to bite you in the ***, when the weather gets colder, and suddenly you run lean on top.
(I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying it might be the case)
Is the 544hp back calculated crank HP? sounds about right to me. if it is WHP, then ****. With just a pulley?
You run the risk of tuning perceived richness out, that is going to bite you in the ***, when the weather gets colder, and suddenly you run lean on top.
(I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying it might be the case)
Is the 544hp back calculated crank HP? sounds about right to me. if it is WHP, then ****. With just a pulley?
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
For a canned tune, that AFR looks nice. You are focusing on the very top end only, but without providing IAT's, it could be argued that the car dumps fuel because of high charge temp.
You run the risk of tuning perceived richness out, that is going to bite you in the ***, when the weather gets colder, and suddenly you run lean on top.
(I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying it might be the case)
Is the 544hp back calculated crank HP? sounds about right to me. if it is WHP, then ****. With just a pulley?
You run the risk of tuning perceived richness out, that is going to bite you in the ***, when the weather gets colder, and suddenly you run lean on top.
(I'm not saying this is the case, I'm saying it might be the case)
Is the 544hp back calculated crank HP? sounds about right to me. if it is WHP, then ****. With just a pulley?
Also, Boost isn't where it should be with a 180mm crank pulley. Is this due to a boost leak or belt slip?
544hp is calculated crank. With a 180mm crank pulley I would be expecting more. The tuner at the dyno shop also said you should be repeatedly running 580-590 on this dyno with those mods. He is well respected in the Mercedes tuning area around here.
I was monitoring intake air temps, it never went above 40 deg c - 100 Fahrenheit. It was approx 60 degrees F today.
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From: Australia
2004 W211 E55 AMG >>gone but not forgotten > W123 280E > W124 E280 > W126 380SE
544 at the flywheel doesn't seem far off the mark with a 180 pulley and tune. These motors can vary substantially in their baseline power. I'd be interested to see if a belt wrap sorted it for you?
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
True. Im going to log boost vs psi and see what it looks like. I think it will be obvious if something isn't right.
If it shows an issue I will install a belt wrap kit firstly. Then check the gaskets etc between surge tanks and inlet.
If it shows an issue I will install a belt wrap kit firstly. Then check the gaskets etc between surge tanks and inlet.
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Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 285
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From: New York
2006 CL55 AMG
I have an 06 CL55 with: EC clutched blower pulley, EC "can" tune, EC i/c, BeltWrap, and K&N air filters. Runs very strong during cold/cool NY weather. Estimating 560+ chp. Noticed a slight drop in power during 70 degree days. Next: separating the cooling and headers.
Alexander, BeltWrap it...you'll definitely eliminate any suspect of slippage.
Alexander, BeltWrap it...you'll definitely eliminate any suspect of slippage.
Last edited by principledchiro; Apr 30, 2015 at 05:52 AM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Mar 2010
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
Definitely, I tried to log boost on the road but its too dangerous.
I have my BWK on its way, and I will be tapping the surge tanks tomorrow. Once installed, I Will go back to the dyno, and they will be able to plot boost vs rpm.
I have my BWK on its way, and I will be tapping the surge tanks tomorrow. Once installed, I Will go back to the dyno, and they will be able to plot boost vs rpm.
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Joined: Mar 2010
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
All the above work done and the car is still the same.
So additional work done:
New surge tank gaskets
BWK
New SC belt
Surge tank tapped for boost reading.
1 step colder plugs
I think the boost is being bled back by the SC bypass valve rather than leaking from the system in the first place. I have cleaned my engine covers since the belt wrap kit and I am not getting any belt slippage as before. Same results, engine feels like the dyno graph, powerful midrange but flat after 3500rpm.
I monitor boost while driving with an ultra gauge and rarely see 12.5psi+ at high rpms.
I have had confirmation that an AFR of 12.5:1 is aimed for on this map, so anything less than that and the car is dumping fuel or bleeding boost for some reason.
I think it needs a real-time mapping session as others have said. Not really anywhere else to go as I haven't had much support from the tuners who carried out the modifications unfortunately.
So additional work done:
New surge tank gaskets
BWK
New SC belt
Surge tank tapped for boost reading.
1 step colder plugs
I think the boost is being bled back by the SC bypass valve rather than leaking from the system in the first place. I have cleaned my engine covers since the belt wrap kit and I am not getting any belt slippage as before. Same results, engine feels like the dyno graph, powerful midrange but flat after 3500rpm.
I monitor boost while driving with an ultra gauge and rarely see 12.5psi+ at high rpms.
I have had confirmation that an AFR of 12.5:1 is aimed for on this map, so anything less than that and the car is dumping fuel or bleeding boost for some reason.
I think it needs a real-time mapping session as others have said. Not really anywhere else to go as I haven't had much support from the tuners who carried out the modifications unfortunately.
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
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2004 E55.98 SS Camaro.Jetta TDI. Expedition
A 180 crank pulley will add 80- 100 hp. Your in that range really if your looking for 580 you should need more mods. Get the air fuel right and you may pick up 20hp
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E55
I have a 77mm clutched sc pulley (equivalent to 180mm cp) and at 1000-1500 elevation I max out at 12.2 psi. Not sure the target should be 12.5 seems too lean and I wouldn't feel comfortable. You need to log or get dyno tuned.
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2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
We are basically at sea level and I am definitely not on the lean side with my afr's!
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From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
Thread Starter
Super Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 643
Likes: 72
From: London UK
2013 W204 C63 AMG, 2008 W221 S65 AMG
Super Member
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From: South Africa
2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
Rocman, do you have a BWK on your pulley setup?
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2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
Cool thanks, just interested to see what my boost level will go up to when my 77mm goes on after full exhaust install at the same time. Stock I was 7.8psi and after installing 84mm clutched sc pulley and BWK I am at 8.7psi peak. This is at 5000ft elevation.. Apologies to the OP, don't mean to hijack your thread Sir
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2018 E63s AMG (Current) 2011 CL63 AMG (Sold) 2005 CLS55 AMG (Sold) 2004 C32 AMG (Sold)
To OP I think you definitely need to get some dyno time in and get your fueling right. Once that's good to go then the rest can be looked at if need be. At least it will be the perfect mixture for your setup and elevation etc.
