Stop drinking the cool-aid on top mount intercoolers.....
#76
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'99 and '05 E55 AMG
Kinda working out the details with my fabricator? This guy is retired from Lockheed Martin and does welding for fun. I would like to help him out with these units. You see, we took two $200 intercoolers ($400 total) and hacked them up and replaced the cores with Bell Intercooler cores. (cores are @ $200 a piece) Strange, right? Well.....Bell Intercooler quoted over $600 a piece for them to make me custom intercoolers.(The $200 intercoolers out of the box restricted my flow @ 3 psi) This project has been months in the making. Contemplated burning the car to the ground a few times.....
FWIW, one of my favorite stories Corky related to me was the one where he asked the Bell Helicopter test pilot, "Why do you get paid so much?" Then the test pilot took him up in a Cobra attack helicopter and showed Corky why he was paid so much...
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#77
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Anthony, Congrats and our dedication to the mile event is admirable.
Your CLS55 takes a lot more power VS a E55 as the rounded/sloped back end that makes the car look sexy, comes with a huge down force on the car and that means you could need another 60-70 hp over a E55 to make the same MPH. For example, mounting a flat horizontal wing on the rear could net another 4-6 mph. Even the big new modified S63 (630 rwhp range)bitrubo that was running 180.1 mph , has a cleaner drag coefficient at .28 ish but you make power, as you are faster and have more wind drag. Another example, is the 2016 supercharged Z06 vets with the 5 to 6"vertical tail fin ,,, they run 167 to 172 mph on average. Those that have removed the tail fin saw gaines of 4mph from that one change.
As you know, the mile event is hard for many to understand the physics of and it is like no other straight line race but is very addicting once a person try`s it. Like most powerful cars, they have to just take off slow and maybe not even get to full throttle till about 80 mph or traction is lost. At the end of the day, the mile is all about pushing through the "wall" and that starts about the half mile.
Here is a picture of your ride getting the veins filled up with ice water
Your CLS55 takes a lot more power VS a E55 as the rounded/sloped back end that makes the car look sexy, comes with a huge down force on the car and that means you could need another 60-70 hp over a E55 to make the same MPH. For example, mounting a flat horizontal wing on the rear could net another 4-6 mph. Even the big new modified S63 (630 rwhp range)bitrubo that was running 180.1 mph , has a cleaner drag coefficient at .28 ish but you make power, as you are faster and have more wind drag. Another example, is the 2016 supercharged Z06 vets with the 5 to 6"vertical tail fin ,,, they run 167 to 172 mph on average. Those that have removed the tail fin saw gaines of 4mph from that one change.
As you know, the mile event is hard for many to understand the physics of and it is like no other straight line race but is very addicting once a person try`s it. Like most powerful cars, they have to just take off slow and maybe not even get to full throttle till about 80 mph or traction is lost. At the end of the day, the mile is all about pushing through the "wall" and that starts about the half mile.
Here is a picture of your ride getting the veins filled up with ice water
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![](http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af31/Vitabc/20160402_130702_zps7ceszftb.jpg)
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E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
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E63 Biturbo, UPD Cold Air induction kit, UPD performance crank pulley and UPD adjustable rear suspension with ride height adjustment.
CL55 UPD Cold Air Boost kit, UPD 3000 stall converter, UPD 77mm SC clutched pulley and beltwrap kit, Custom long tubes, UPD crank pulley , UPD suspension kit, UPD SC pulley, Aux. HE, Trunk tank w/rule 2000 pump, Mezeire pump, UPD 5pc idler set, Aluminum rotor hats.
www.ultimatepd.com
instagram @ultimate_pd
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EREBUS (04-05-2016)
#78
Super Member
Thread Starter
So...have you actually discussed this on the phone or via email with Corky (Corky of Bell Engineering Group, Incorporated and Bell Intercoolers)? He's an Aggie mechanical engineer, worked for Bell Helicopter many years ago on the design of the Huey rotor head (IIRC), a former racer, consultant to Bonneville and NASCAR racers, and pretty darn smart. Corky has forgotten more about cars than I know. A true gentleman and a man who knows how to apply his knowledge to solving the technical problems that affect us all...such as creating a turbo-charged blender to increase the efficiency of making margaritas.
![bow](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/bowdown.gif)
Oh, hell no! My lunch would be EVERYWHERE in that cockpit.
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Last edited by EREBUS; 04-05-2016 at 12:41 PM.
#79
Super Member
Thread Starter
Anthony, Congrats and our dedication to the mile event is admirable.
Your CLS55 takes a lot more power VS a E55 as the rounded/sloped back end that makes the car look sexy, comes with a huge down force on the car and that means you could need another 60-70 hp over a E55 to make the same MPH. For example, mounting a flat horizontal wing on the rear could net another 4-6 mph. Even the big new modified S63 (630 rwhp range)bitrubo that was running 180.1 mph , has a cleaner drag coefficient at .28 ish but you make power, as you are faster and have more wind drag. Another example, is the 2016 supercharged Z06 vets with the 5 to 6"vertical tail fin ,,, they run 167 to 172 mph on average. Those that have removed the tail fin saw gaines of 4mph from that one change.
As you know, the mile event is hard for many to understand the physics of and it is like no other straight line race but is very addicting once a person try`s it. Like most powerful cars, they have to just take off slow and maybe not even get to full throttle till about 80 mph or traction is lost. At the end of the day, the mile is all about pushing through the "wall" and that starts about the half mile.
Here is a picture of your ride getting the veins filled up with ice water
![](http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af31/Vitabc/20160402_130702_zps7ceszftb.jpg)
Your CLS55 takes a lot more power VS a E55 as the rounded/sloped back end that makes the car look sexy, comes with a huge down force on the car and that means you could need another 60-70 hp over a E55 to make the same MPH. For example, mounting a flat horizontal wing on the rear could net another 4-6 mph. Even the big new modified S63 (630 rwhp range)bitrubo that was running 180.1 mph , has a cleaner drag coefficient at .28 ish but you make power, as you are faster and have more wind drag. Another example, is the 2016 supercharged Z06 vets with the 5 to 6"vertical tail fin ,,, they run 167 to 172 mph on average. Those that have removed the tail fin saw gaines of 4mph from that one change.
As you know, the mile event is hard for many to understand the physics of and it is like no other straight line race but is very addicting once a person try`s it. Like most powerful cars, they have to just take off slow and maybe not even get to full throttle till about 80 mph or traction is lost. At the end of the day, the mile is all about pushing through the "wall" and that starts about the half mile.
Here is a picture of your ride getting the veins filled up with ice water
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![](http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af31/Vitabc/20160402_130702_zps7ceszftb.jpg)
#80
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Interesting finds with using ice tank for the top mount intercoolers for the race.......
Factory intercooler: Using 2.5 gallon engine bay ice tank for the factory intercooler, I would show 52 degrees IAT's with outside temp of 85 degrees after intercooler system was chilled and tank repacked with ice. Front mount heat exchanger and secondary heat exchanger were covered with thermal insulation and were both connected to the ice tank. The temps quickly raised during tire cleansing in staging. Waiting for the track to clear, I would already be near ambient. Of course, IAT's quickly pasted 180 degrees by the time I hit the mile marker.
Meth/Water: One 3gph nozzle pre supercharger and 8gph post supercharger (pre-intercooler) using 75/25 water to meth
Top mount intercooler: Using the same 2.5 gallon engine bay ice tank for top mount intercoolers, I would show 71 degrees IAT's with outside temps at 82 degrees after the intercooler system was chilled and tank repacked with ice. Larger front mount heat exchanger was connected to factory intercooler and it was not connected to the ice tank (no reservoir). Front mount smaller heat exchanger was connected to top mounts and ice tank....but were not covered. (I forgot) Tire cleansing caused the temps to raise @5-7 degrees and drop back down within seconds to 71-72 IAT's. IAT's climbed to 128 degrees by the end. At @15 seconds it takes to drive to speed trailer/check point, my IAT's held steady at 87 degrees. Took a picture of the Torque App screen shot while I pulled away from getting my slip/card.
Meth/Water: 3gph (changed for the race) pre-supercharger and two 3gph post intercooler. Using 75/25 water to meth
Conclusion? My car was not running right, that is evident in my slower 1/4 and 1/2 speeds than before. I believe the top mount intercoolers and meth/water kept enough timing to push the pig past the laser to pull off the 180.7 speed. Having the original IAT sensor SO close the intercooler core, we get somewhat extreme variances compared to my location that is sensing the surge tank air volume.
I still have a lot of work to do. But it looks pretty promising at this point!
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a100steaksauce (10-05-2016)
#81
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This place is a joke.
Are you aware the meth nozzle pre-supercharger provides zero cooling effect to iat's? I've tested and proven it. It "might" provide a slight increase in boost by sealing the rotors, I may have seen that in my testing but it could have been coincidence from other factors.
Pre-intercooler I did not test, but suspect it's not ideal as you are wetting the core and insulating it with water,thus reducing the ability for heat exchange. Puddling is also possible as it hits the core and beads into drops. Good luck with your project, I know you put in a lot of effort.
Pre-intercooler I did not test, but suspect it's not ideal as you are wetting the core and insulating it with water,thus reducing the ability for heat exchange. Puddling is also possible as it hits the core and beads into drops. Good luck with your project, I know you put in a lot of effort.
#82
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Interesting finds with using ice tank for the top mount intercoolers for the race.......
Factory intercooler: Using 2.5 gallon engine bay ice tank for the factory intercooler, I would show 52 degrees IAT's with outside temp of 85 degrees after intercooler system was chilled and tank repacked with ice. Front mount heat exchanger and secondary heat exchanger were covered with thermal insulation and were both connected to the ice tank. The temps quickly raised during tire cleansing in staging. Waiting for the track to clear, I would already be near ambient. Of course, IAT's quickly pasted 180 degrees by the time I hit the mile marker.
Meth/Water: One 3gph nozzle pre supercharger and 8gph post supercharger (pre-intercooler) using 75/25 water to meth
Top mount intercooler: Using the same 2.5 gallon engine bay ice tank for top mount intercoolers, I would show 71 degrees IAT's with outside temps at 82 degrees after the intercooler system was chilled and tank repacked with ice. Larger front mount heat exchanger was connected to factory intercooler and it was not connected to the ice tank (no reservoir). Front mount smaller heat exchanger was connected to top mounts and ice tank....but were not covered. (I forgot) Tire cleansing caused the temps to raise @5-7 degrees and drop back down within seconds to 71-72 IAT's. IAT's climbed to 128 degrees by the end. At @15 seconds it takes to drive to speed trailer/check point, my IAT's held steady at 87 degrees. Took a picture of the Torque App screen shot while I pulled away from getting my slip/card.
Meth/Water: 3gph (changed for the race) pre-supercharger and two 3gph post intercooler. Using 75/25 water to meth
Conclusion? My car was not running right, that is evident in my slower 1/4 and 1/2 speeds than before. I believe the top mount intercoolers and meth/water kept enough timing to push the pig past the laser to pull off the 180.7 speed. Having the original IAT sensor SO close the intercooler core, we get somewhat extreme variances compared to my location that is sensing the surge tank air volume.
I still have a lot of work to do. But it looks pretty promising at this point!
You NEED to gut that stock cooler!
#83
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When social media is in the same post talking about Intercoolers and head lifting, I'm out.
What are we doing this for? Ego? I just like the automobile. I love it.
When you guys have moved on to the next fad, they will need to pry the internal combustion engine from my cold dead hands.
What are we doing this for? Ego? I just like the automobile. I love it.
When you guys have moved on to the next fad, they will need to pry the internal combustion engine from my cold dead hands.
#85
Super Member
Thread Starter
Are you aware the meth nozzle pre-supercharger provides zero cooling effect to iat's? I've tested and proven it. It "might" provide a slight increase in boost by sealing the rotors, I may have seen that in my testing but it could have been coincidence from other factors.
Pre-intercooler I did not test, but suspect it's not ideal as you are wetting the core and insulating it with water, thus reducing the ability for heat exchange. Puddling is also possible as it hits the core and beads into drops.
Pre-intercooler I did not test, but suspect it's not ideal as you are wetting the core and insulating it with water, thus reducing the ability for heat exchange. Puddling is also possible as it hits the core and beads into drops.
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#86
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#87
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This place is a joke.
Agreed. I have said in an earlier post about the water/meth was actually insulating the core. Not good. The pre-intercooler was left because I also stated I gained @.3-.5 psi with it spraying with the multiple runs I was doing. (3 runs with and 3 runs without)
Thank you. I have to give back to this forum that has helped me with my AMGs for years. I'm talking back in the day with my first AMG.....W210 E55 (I still have)![thumbs](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Thank you. I have to give back to this forum that has helped me with my AMGs for years. I'm talking back in the day with my first AMG.....W210 E55 (I still have)
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#88
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Because you, like many here, are a gearhead.
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#89
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#90
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So I pull up after my first run to the booth/trailer and know I was close to the speed I wanted.
First run.......
Me: 181 mph?
Biker dude: No.(as he handed me the slip he was looking at satan's number on my car)
Me: Damn, so close!
Biker dude: Try changing your number if you want to go faster
Me: lol
Biker dude: ..........
Second run (same dude +1).....
Me: 181 mph?
Biker dude: No. 180.7 mph
Me: HELL YEAH! THAT'S THE RECORD!
Biker dude: ........
Me: As I'm attempting to get a fist bump...he looked at me. So I move my fist bump to the dude next to him.......he too, just looked at me. Maybe it was the Septicflesh playing in my car that set them off. Dunno. Still funny, though.
#91
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This place is a joke.
Funny thing, actually. The Texas Mile uses a Christian Biker club for ALL volunteer positions........including the speed slip checkpoint after your run.
So I pull up after my first run to the booth/trailer and know I was close to the speed I wanted.
First run.......
Me: 181 mph?
Biker dude: No.(as he handed me the slip he was looking at satan's number on my car)
Me: Damn, so close!
Biker dude: Try changing your number if you want to go faster
Me: lol
Biker dude: ..........
Second run (same dude +1).....
Me: 181 mph?
Biker dude: No. 180.7 mph
Me: HELL YEAH! THAT'S THE RECORD!
Biker dude: ........
Me: As I'm attempting to get a fist bump...he looked at me. So I move my fist bump to the dude next to him.......he too, just looked at me. Maybe it was the Septicflesh playing in my car that set them off. Dunno. Still funny, though.
So I pull up after my first run to the booth/trailer and know I was close to the speed I wanted.
First run.......
Me: 181 mph?
Biker dude: No.(as he handed me the slip he was looking at satan's number on my car)
Me: Damn, so close!
Biker dude: Try changing your number if you want to go faster
Me: lol
Biker dude: ..........
Second run (same dude +1).....
Me: 181 mph?
Biker dude: No. 180.7 mph
Me: HELL YEAH! THAT'S THE RECORD!
Biker dude: ........
Me: As I'm attempting to get a fist bump...he looked at me. So I move my fist bump to the dude next to him.......he too, just looked at me. Maybe it was the Septicflesh playing in my car that set them off. Dunno. Still funny, though.
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Last edited by E55Greasemonkey; 04-05-2016 at 08:55 PM.
#92
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06' E55, 10' Harley Davidson F-250 6.4L TT
Good question. I took the mile record for the M113k for using factory blower and no nitrous with 180.7 mph. I wished the temps weren't in the 80's.....but my intercoolers did REALLY well. (I'll get to that later
)
The record held for 5 years with Brooke's CL55 doing 180.4
Brooke and Shardul were there helping me achieve it. The irony? It was Brooke/Shardul's parts and Anthony Lawshee's tune that did it.........just like they did the CL55 in 2010 for 180.4. Anthony and Jerry tuned the CL55 for the mile back in 2010 and Anthony then finalized the tune with a correction to the A/F. Pretty cool, huh? I think so.
Last Thursday I dyno tuned the car and it didn't go well. A/F's were not controllable and I only dynoed (Mustang) 412 rwhp (125 hp loss from last dyno tune) 5 hours in the dyno session I gave up. Decided to go to the mile race against Anthony Lawhee's better judgement. (The tune was not corrected and I could of damaged the engine). Arrived late (1:48am) Saturday morning and decided to change the 02 sensors with universal Bosch as a "why not" last ditch effort in the pits. Hit 180.7 on the second run (no tape. all exterior intact. full trim and weight) with TCU hesitating between shifts......like I was driving a standard? (Weistec modified)
I only ran 4 times in two days. The two runs Sunday were a bust. I messed with another tune and played with the intake. Cost me 4 mph. lol
I just started, I guess. Found all the issues that my car doesn't like and found out what it does. Now, I will start improving. My goal is to break 200 mph in the mile. Nitrous is the key. Lots of it.
To do list?
1) Find problem with fuel management and dyno tune
2) Start modifying my factory transmission and rear end
3) Since I have the built engine, I should probably test it's capabilities with nitrous. Just say'in.
4) Remove my heavy 20" wheels and use lighter 19's so I can get racing slicks
5) Replace my 83mm clutched pulley with 77mm clutched pulley.
6) Replace my heavy driveshaft with carbon fiber driveshaft.
7) Lower my vehicle
8) Work on my intercoolers. I have tons of data with ideas and I'm not afraid to use them.....
9) Get my CLS with .30 drag co-efficiency to the E's .27 co-efficiency.
![Big Grin](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
The record held for 5 years with Brooke's CL55 doing 180.4
Brooke and Shardul were there helping me achieve it. The irony? It was Brooke/Shardul's parts and Anthony Lawshee's tune that did it.........just like they did the CL55 in 2010 for 180.4. Anthony and Jerry tuned the CL55 for the mile back in 2010 and Anthony then finalized the tune with a correction to the A/F. Pretty cool, huh? I think so.
Last Thursday I dyno tuned the car and it didn't go well. A/F's were not controllable and I only dynoed (Mustang) 412 rwhp (125 hp loss from last dyno tune) 5 hours in the dyno session I gave up. Decided to go to the mile race against Anthony Lawhee's better judgement. (The tune was not corrected and I could of damaged the engine). Arrived late (1:48am) Saturday morning and decided to change the 02 sensors with universal Bosch as a "why not" last ditch effort in the pits. Hit 180.7 on the second run (no tape. all exterior intact. full trim and weight) with TCU hesitating between shifts......like I was driving a standard? (Weistec modified)
I only ran 4 times in two days. The two runs Sunday were a bust. I messed with another tune and played with the intake. Cost me 4 mph. lol
I just started, I guess. Found all the issues that my car doesn't like and found out what it does. Now, I will start improving. My goal is to break 200 mph in the mile. Nitrous is the key. Lots of it.
To do list?
1) Find problem with fuel management and dyno tune
2) Start modifying my factory transmission and rear end
3) Since I have the built engine, I should probably test it's capabilities with nitrous. Just say'in.
4) Remove my heavy 20" wheels and use lighter 19's so I can get racing slicks
5) Replace my 83mm clutched pulley with 77mm clutched pulley.
6) Replace my heavy driveshaft with carbon fiber driveshaft.
7) Lower my vehicle
8) Work on my intercoolers. I have tons of data with ideas and I'm not afraid to use them.....
9) Get my CLS with .30 drag co-efficiency to the E's .27 co-efficiency.
#93
Super Member
Thread Starter
Apparently, you have never listened to Septicflesh!
More like they thought I sacrifice virgin women on my spare time. lol
Justifying the reason to your comment, though...... I unfortunately look metro. In defense to my "evil" characterization........my kids do force me to go to church a few times a month. They were NOT impressed by my choice of racing number. Like, pissed I did it. I decided to retaliate on their anger towards me and told them that the Easter bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause were nothing more than demons trying to pull them from the light of Jesus. After they stopped crying, I made them read Mein Kampf and told them that hitler was their great grandfather.
More like they thought I sacrifice virgin women on my spare time. lol
Justifying the reason to your comment, though...... I unfortunately look metro. In defense to my "evil" characterization........my kids do force me to go to church a few times a month. They were NOT impressed by my choice of racing number. Like, pissed I did it. I decided to retaliate on their anger towards me and told them that the Easter bunny, Tooth Fairy and Santa Clause were nothing more than demons trying to pull them from the light of Jesus. After they stopped crying, I made them read Mein Kampf and told them that hitler was their great grandfather.
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#94
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Thread Starter
#96
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Thread Starter
It's a complete hack job by a friend of mine. @ $15 in aluminum tubing and $75 in labor. I will ask him if he can draw up the schematics of the build. Works really well with the lack of space we have to work with. FYI....notice I'm using a split 45 coupling to connect the intake tubing Y- pipe to intake tubes to allow better adjustment and flexibility.
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EREBUS (04-06-2016)
#98
I think we're just looking at this the wrong way. If the primary goal of this project was to reduce the IATs then the proof of concept has been achieved.
I'd love to see n2o come into the mix to finish things off, but wouldn't it make more sense to iron out all the tuning issues first and complete the run while the car is 100%?
I'd love to see n2o come into the mix to finish things off, but wouldn't it make more sense to iron out all the tuning issues first and complete the run while the car is 100%?
#99
Super Member
Thread Starter
I think we're just looking at this the wrong way. If the primary goal of this project was to reduce the IATs then the proof of concept has been achieved.
I'd love to see n2o come into the mix to finish things off, but wouldn't it make more sense to iron out all the tuning issues first and complete the run while the car is 100%?
I'd love to see n2o come into the mix to finish things off, but wouldn't it make more sense to iron out all the tuning issues first and complete the run while the car is 100%?
The intercooler is not ready. Period. Lots of flaws I'm still working out. I have adjusted the set up multiple times to work. I'm afraid someone will try to duplicate this before I perfect it. There are problems with it.....
1) It needs to be welded and adjusted so it does not rest on coil packs
2) Changing pipe diameter of intake
3) Considering a different flow path
4) Oil cap is problem
5) Intake is a problem
6) I have diffusors in one of my pipes that needs to be relocated. (excessive pressure drop before and after diffusor)
7) Multiple factory relocated parts need to be done correctly.
8) Need larger heat exchanger
9) Need reservoir for factory intercooler.
10) Need a total of 3 intercooler pumps....not two.
I have, for the first time, a formula and data to start with for my car to shine in the mile. My 200 mph comment was a joke. This platform will not do 200mph in the mile. Period. It would take a separate can system and turbos like RedbullJunky to consider it. Trust me.
#100
I have a lot left to give in the mile. We will be back March 2017 with a lot of changes. I will have two tunes for the mile. One tune maximized without NOS and one tune with NOS. With all the data I have collected recently......it looks like I might get to mid 180's.....without NOS.
The intercooler is not ready. Period. Lots of flaws I'm still working out. I have adjusted the set up multiple times to work. I'm afraid someone will try to duplicate this before I perfect it. There are problems with it.....
1) It needs to be welded and adjusted so it does not rest on coil packs
2) Changing pipe diameter of intake
3) Considering a different flow path
4) Oil cap is problem
5) Intake is a problem
6) I have diffusors in one of my pipes that needs to be relocated. (excessive pressure drop before and after diffusor)
7) Multiple factory relocated parts need to be done correctly.
The intercooler is not ready. Period. Lots of flaws I'm still working out. I have adjusted the set up multiple times to work. I'm afraid someone will try to duplicate this before I perfect it. There are problems with it.....
1) It needs to be welded and adjusted so it does not rest on coil packs
2) Changing pipe diameter of intake
3) Considering a different flow path
4) Oil cap is problem
5) Intake is a problem
6) I have diffusors in one of my pipes that needs to be relocated. (excessive pressure drop before and after diffusor)
7) Multiple factory relocated parts need to be done correctly.
It looks like it a majority of your fitment issues can be alleviated by merging the intercoolers and surgetanks into single pieces, though it looks like you have been down that road already. Best of luck in your endeavors