C32owner

Wow can't believe it's been basically a year since I did this install. Sorry for my thread revival but after a long break I am now back at my meth install in the hunt for gains! Like E55GREASEMONKEY I have been so dissappointed with my results from the kit and i have tried many different locations and nozzle sizes and just not seeing or actually feeling the performance gains! Oh yes also tried different mixes from 100%meth to straight water. After getting back into it and Data logging again, I wasn't happy with my AFR's as they were getting seriously rich in the 9.9 range hence running straight water in the end to lean it out a bit, this helped, and this was with 2 #3 nozzles post intercooler before IAT sensor and 1 #10 nozzle pre-i/c. The dyno, showed no gains. I went for some runs on the road the other night and needless to say put down some of my worst times ever, very discouraging indeed especially when I was so hopeful after fitting a new set of TOYO PROXES to help grip on acceleration. Sorry guys this is a long read, but hear me out.... I went to our drag strip this weekend and met my tuner there and picking at his brains, he has an E55 with a weistek blower and very modded, I was talking to him about my disappointment and asked what nozzle setup is he running, as I have always felt my system is to big for the engine. Anyway to my utter surprise he is only running 1 nozzle, size 0.4mm nozzle which from what I can gather is roughly a size #3 with all his WHP!!!! . Oh yes he runs straight 100% meth. So that has given me some good acid and charge back in my batteries to tackle this project head on again. So I immediately drained my pure water out the tank and replace with 100% meth and disconnect my #10 nozzle post i/c and go for the same runs. Wow my times on my little dashboard computer gave me the best results I have ever had in the car. Very promising indeed. So I am actually not sure now whether I should even go smaller on my #3's, I went and bought 2 size #1.5 nozzles to replace the 3's and see what that does, but I am thinking it may be to small. However I remember my initial nozzle pre-t/b increased my boost, however I had a way to big #10 nozzle there. So this question more for E55GREASEMONKEY if you still around mate, I know you took your system out and went NOS setup, however do you recall with your #1 nozzle pre-s/c if you saw a boost increase with that small nozzle. I would like to probably put my #1.5 nozzle there if I can still see a 1psi boost increase. As I remember for every 1psi increase in boost translates to about 15rwhp, hey thats free power and I will take whatever I can out of this system.

drothgeb

I get a 1PSI boost with a #3 pre-SC. I also run a 7 post IC and run slower times with 100% water. 50/50 gives best so far, and didn't want to go to much more meth for fear of getting too rich but I may play with it more in the future. Turns out too much water in a combustion chamber really is counter productive.

E55Greasemonkey

Sorry I don't remember if the #1 pre-SC gave me more boost, it's been a while!

C32owner

Cool enough, thanks for the replies, well no harm in trying. Think I will leave the 2 #3's in place and add the 1.5 nozzle to pre-s/c and check if I get a boost increase, will probably turn down the pump as well as I am now thinking less is definitely more at the end of the day.

seanol

Using E55GREASEMONKEY's installation and data I installed a #3 in TB and originally a #7 just after IC in the flat pad under IC housing. Had good results but went with a 77fsp and started to heat up again. I went to a #10 post IC and have had great results. I get max timing out of my tune and stay at or under ambient in all conditions with the exception of ambients over 85 degrees. Even then I max out at 10 to 15 over ambient in temps as hot as 110. Best timing with #7 was 18 degrees, with #10 I am at 23 degrees in similar ambients.

My #3 at the TB gave me 1.5 psi of boost increase. I have a 77 fixed pulley, RaceIQ tune, 82mm TB, and split cooling as my mods. Everything else is stock. I used an Innovate LM-2 datalogger wired to the factory sensors' analog output so I am logging the same readings the factory ecu reads, not OBD2. I log AFR, RPM, IAT, MAP, TPS, and I also log fuel pressure from a separate sensor. I log timing through OBD2.

I run 90/10 water meth year round with the exception of high ambients in summer, then I run 80/20 water meth. I use Heet as my methanol source and distilled water. I have found that for every 10% of meth added I richen up.5 afr. At 50/50 I am at 10 to 1. My tune is specified at 12 to 1 and that is where it reads at 90/10 mix.

I have had a couple people use this exact setup and have excellent results. I have not found in my testing a better way yet to cool the IAT's.

One thing I consider is that the placement of the meth nozzle relative to the IAT sensor is less than ideal. I don't think the IAT reading is correct as the mix will coat the sensor and insulate it somewhat. I believe that is why I found the #10 as the best reducer of temp when it should really be too large. But it reduces temps the most and does not bog, even injecting as low as 4psi. I use a boost switch for activation, no progressive controller.

If you frequent Facebook I have numerous posts on AMG Dream Team that show all the data as well as my installation in detail.

C32owner

Thanks for all the info SEANOL, good stuff here. I am going to try hit the dyno on friday with just the 3's installed and see where I am at, as it feels pretty good for now. Then I will install one of my 1.5's pre-t/b to see if I can get a boost increase with such a small nozzle and if there is a boost rise I will go dyno again and see what that produces. Then let the tinkering continue I guess.

drothgeb

I am kind of surprised you weren't maintaining temps with the #7, my 3 pre/7 post set up with a 72mm fixed does stellar. Nothing else wrong with your system any where is there?

Also one thing that might matter for folks like you and I running at elevation.... a lot of these fellas running size one billion nozzles probably are doing it with a lot more oxygen density then us, might have an affect on how much water they can spray vs us before it starts to impact combustion.

seanol

I am sure it is elevation. We are at sea level here in Dallas and heat with humidity do not help. Car is perfect. All maintenance was done before I did anything for performance. I do have the stock heat exchanger still. I don't like changing things out unless I can quantify a need for the change. Stock I was at 12-15 over ambient cruising. 77fsp put me 18-23 over ambient cruising which makes sense. I also use water with a little coolant in the IC system. That helps as well.

With a #7 I was hitting 130 on a hard pull. With the #10 I am a little over 100 at 95 degrees ambient. I hit 14.3psi in winter and 13.7 in high summer heat on the 77fsp. Timing is consistent at 19-23 degrees depending on temps, once over 95 I lose 3 degrees.

I attached some older graphs with IAT and Boost stock with an 07 and stock with dual nozzles, #03 after TB and #010 after IC. You can see in IAT the 07 starts to rise where the 010 does not. Ambients were around 10-12 degrees different between runs with 010 run hotter.

Boost shows the difference between a nozzle after the TB and without. Same runs and conditions as IAT graph. This is all on a stock clutched pulley.

seanol

Here is a run with the 77fsp with meth and without. Ambients were in the 85-90 degree range. IAT and Timing change between meth and no meth. Blue is no meth, brown is with meth, both at 90/10 water meth ratio. On timing, lower is better.

C32owner

Very nice graphs to show the difference there. Drothgeb the nozzles definitely made a difference to my IAT temps for sure no matter what mix I had running. Obviously though the AFR's would differ, but the main thing though that dissappointed me was I could never feel a seat of the pants difference in the car with meth on or off. Car pulled the same, and then hitting the dyno this confirmed it that there was negligible power difference, in fact sometimes meth off or water off depending on the mix sometimes showed more power. Hence for my setup I came to the conclusion I simply must be running to much nozzle. That was a size 10 pre-i/c and 2 #3's post i/c. The car with those nozzles with 100% meth ran very rich, and did not really matter what mix I had tried after that was still way to rich (I don't want to tune for meth at all) so I ended up on straight water. The AFR's came right but the car was definitely slower for sure. So I have now disconnected the size 10 nozzle and currently only running 2 size 3's with 100% meth and car is feeling good, so I am pretty sure that my car does not like the big nozzles, but as you said this has to be due to our elevation, which means our power and boost levels are no were near our lucky, advantaged sea level brothers. I am going to try dyno the car tomorrow then change my setup again and try dyno again. Yes initially I was chasing on cooling down the IAT's thinking this will bring me loads of power however it's been dismal. I still think I will find what works for my car and not giving up yet. I think I am on the right track and have some ideas. Just need to get to testing it all and see if I can produce results that will finally make me happy with the w/m setup.

seanol

Whatever gives you the most timing should give you the most power. Keep under 94 degrees F so you don't pull timing.

E55Greasemonkey

Nobody has yet to prove with 1/4 mile times that meth makes any difference. Yes, it lowers IAT's and holds more timing while injecting water and extra "fuel"- but is it really making more power? Where's the proof? 1/4 mile passes with and without?

PieRat

Well old mate is doing some dynos so even if different injections = different power we will know it does something somehow, maybe. Also you probably need to review power loss on back to back runs not cool run vs cool run coz meth aint helping much then surely...

seanol

I know of at least two people who tested at the track. One ran an 11.9 @123 with meth and a 11.6 @ 119 when it ran out. Another set a 11.3 @123 with meth and timing at 23 degrees, best before that was 11.6 @ 120 at 19 degrees. My position will always be that there are too many variables to make track testing a truly quantifiable test. I know I am in the minority but that is my experience over the last 15 years in Motorsports and dyno testing multiple platforms and race series.

I can say I have logged rate of acceleration or time to get to a specific RPM value and my logs show least amount of time to rpm when the timing is highest and IAT's the lowest, for my car. I am sure there is a point of diminishing returns but I have not hit it yet at 23 degrees of timing.

One other data point, on the 11.6 @ 119 run that person told me he could feel the car slow at the 1/8th mile when the IAT's went over 130. He did not have that issue when he ran the slower time as IAT's did not go over 100 on that run.

Not trying to convince anyone, just providing observed data.

drothgeb

Spraying meth is not some new thing that the 55 community is just discovering and testing the waters with for the first time Spraying meth and NOT tuning for it does not make more power :-P The 55 community mostly uses it to keep IAT down which adds timing which does make more power(if you cannot handle temps without meth). The rest of the world in general sprays meth and tunes for it including correcting AFR and more aggressive timing which DOES make more power.

Spraying too much water under certain circumstances can be counter productive in my experience. Not to the point where it is not beneficial if your IATs are too high without it, but where adding more methanol to the mix can be beneficial even if it lowers AFR. Now if you tuned for AFR, and had more meth in the mix, and added timing, .... phew, now were talking. But its very scary for us 55 folks to think if a meth pump went out it could be dangerous to the motor. Almost like if a fuel pump went out it could be dangerous to the motor, or a fuel injector issue, or a FPR issue or a list of a billion other things that could be dangerous if they had issues.

Any ways I digress, My point is there is a world filled with car enthusiasts not on this board that thoroughly take advantage of the benefits of methanol injection that can be found and read about, it's not really a concept that still needs proving, we just need to figure out how we'd like to utilize it and the best way to go about it

C32owner

So to keep this going, I'm still at it, changing out nozzles and pressure on the pump and controller settings etc.. Tried the #1.5 which is a 1.5gph nozzle pre s/c and I saw no increase in boost pressure, so that is now going to get a #3 nozzle installed to check on a boost increase and when I see the boost increase its back to the dyno again. As a matter of interest the other day I did before and after dynos on the same day adding a third nozzle, the 1.5gph and saw a massive rise in power HOWEVER unfortunately the temperature was way lower in the evening when I got round to the second dyno, unreal how much the OAT makes such a big difference to the end numbers, at first I thought I found the sweet spot on the nozzle sizing ad there was about a 50whp difference in readings however after the dyno I went and logged some stuff on the road and was still slower than my best times that I set with only the 2 #3 nozzles In the y-pipe. Anyway let the logging continue.....

seanol

C32owner,
IAT makes a huge difference due to timing.

I have a boost switch to control injection as nothing short of a dedicated controller like Torquebyte or Cortex can control injection with any type of accuracy due to how quickly boost hits. I inject full at 6psi and it keeps IAT's and timing where they need to be for my setup.

Injection point is important to stop temp rise. If you get behind the curve you will chase it and ultimately have higher IAT's. In my timing graph you can see the ecu retarded timing to 4 degrees below top dead center on the non meth run. That is a lot of power lost.

I bogged at 4psi and at 8psi I lost 3 degrees of timing and gained 15 degrees of IAT.

Also, keep in mind I am logging using a dedicated logger, Innovate Motorsports LM-2. My data, other than timing, is not OBD2 but actual sensor values from the factory IAT via voltage.

On my car more meth ratio gained no timing or IAT gains and actually slowed it down. Since I did not change nozzle size as I went lower it is not truly a valid test but I was .5 AFR richer for every 10% more meth added. Since I will not tune for additional meth percentage this makes sense. I do not trust current technology to keep engine safe in the event of a failure.

C32owner

Seanol, valuable stuff as always, thanks very much Sir. I unfortunately am logging through the OBD which is not ideal but all I have for now and at least have a lot of logs to compare to see if I am headed in the right direction. Yes understand fully on the timing pull loosing power story, and also going to big on the mix is also for a net loss at the end of the day, and this is what I am trying to find, is the sweet spot for my car at altitude where she is happiest. Really loving all this information coming forward, all good stuff! Thanks all Ps: I like your hint the meth in your car spraying full at 6 psi, I am going to set the controller for that and check it out.

drothgeb

I am working on tuning for methonal at the moment

I've given a little thought into the safety aspect. It would be very easy to wire a liquid 100 psi pressure switch into the meth plumbing wires just down stream of the boost pressure switch so it only energizes when the meth system energizes. Use a NC switch run power to a beep/alarm in the cab and it will sound if the meth control system is energized but pressure is below 100psi.

You could also instead of running the 100 psi switch electrical to a beeper you could run it to control a normally closed time delay relay that would kill power to the SC clutch(very short time delay just to allow time for the meth system to pressurize and hit the liquid pressure switch)

I dont have a clutch so that wouldn't work for me haha. But it wouldn't be very hard for us to build a set up that would keep folks safe from any methonal system anomalies by disengaging the clutch or providing a warning when methonal system pressure wasn't high.

100psi pressure switch to plum to meth system:
http://www.partdeal.com/veethree-100-psi-single-circuit-pressure-switch-nc-780927.html

Time delay relay that can be set to 200ms to allow meth system pressurization before disconnecting clutch:
https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-996152151-0-900s-Delay-Control/dp/B003C508Y8

C32owner

Wow a tune for methanol, can't wait for those results! That should elevate things to a whole new level

seanol

Some have found a way to de energize bypass valve, setting it to full open and that would work for those of us with fixed pulleys. Not sure if it is as easy as a relay cutting power or not.

You can maintain pressure with a clogged nozzle. I think a flow sensor would be better but I would look at one from someone other than AEM as it has very poor life.

Torqbyte has current sensing built into its controller and it has a huge number of features: https://torqbyte.com/products/torqbyte-cm5-lt

I may be going this way in the future if I continue to mod.

drothgeb

Oh yeah good call. It is a normally open valve, it would probably be pretty easy if some one could figure out which wire in the plug was the control signal wire, run that wire through the relay and it would probably do the trick. Trip the relay open on loss of water pressure or flow or what ever you wanted to use, and it would drop out the control signal and pop that thing open.

A little more advanced than relays and switches some of the controllers have inputs and outputs and actually let you program logic. You could set up logic based on WOT and afr to light off outputs to control what ever you wanted.

All of which is super over kill in my opinion, probably don't have any of that crazy stuff on your fuel system to check for dying pumps or clogging injectors? But, lots of people have different opinions than me :-P

seanol

The bypass is wired same as throttle body and the ecu controls it so it is not just on and off it is cycled along with throttle.

These pumps are consumer duty at best. There are many cases of them failing as well as dropping pressure as they wear. No way I would tune for meth unless it is a dedicated track car and I was logging at least flow with some type of failsafe..

I log many parameters and use an in dash display. I monitor my fuel system via O2 sensor and fuel pressure sensor. This is how I caught the fact that Mercedes did not use the right harness when they did the fuel tank extended warranty work.

Replacing the engine is not something I want to do any time soon.

drothgeb

It is not an on off in normal operation, but you aren't trying to throttle it, we want to open it. In that sense it is exactly the same as on off. Because it is a normally open valve, you wire the relay in to the control signal or even the 12V power to the motor. Drop out that position signal or motor power and the valve fails to the full open position.

​

C32owner

So the bypass valve under the s/c is controlled from the ecu? In essence can a modified tune have an effect on the bypass valve? I mean I have always noticed in my logs that my boost is general all over the place on hammer down in gear situation. The boost doesn't build up as I thought it would with a supercharger, ie: as revs build higher so should your boost, but I see it fluctuating quite a lot.... I wonder if a tune can actually force the valve closed for higher boost... I'm guessing not as this would have been done long ago.

Next thing, you guys seeing up your controllers for the meth kit, are you using voltage based readings to set your controllers to trigger meth on/off or you using boost based setups?