So, here's the deal. I have a '06 E55. My goodness, I LOVE this car. It's beautiful, reliable, and the power is incredible. But..... the only thing about having lots of power is it creates an insatiable need for MORE power. That's especially true with gobs of torque, which the E55 has in spades. So, a friend of mine starts whispering in my ear this morning about the twin turbo V-12 AMG's. Now, I'm not an especially high roller - I do OK but not wealthy by any means. I can support the E55 just fine, but a brand new AMG is just not going to happen. I start looking into the used V-12 AMG twin turbos, and I can see they're readily attainable in the low to mid $30K range. That's not a problem. Now I really start thinking.

Can you guys tell me the in's and out's of this engine combo and the models they're available in? In poking around a bit on line I found the CL65 AMG and the SL65 AMG. I know that I absolutely do not want the huge S class AMG V-12 sedan. It's just too darned big for me. I would love a E class sedan like the E55, but I assume that never happened with the V-12 TT, as I don't see any. I'm guessing that the CL65, SL65 and the big S sedan are it? Any known problems with any of these cars? I'm thinking in terms of items like the known head bolt issues of the 2007+ vintage E63's - stuff like that. How about the suspension and brakes? Any known issues or extreme complications with these systems? I can deal with the SBC-based braking system on the E55, but wouldn't shed any tears to be rid of it either!

Any info you guys can provide on these cars and drivetrain's would be very much appreciated.

Who knows, there might be a VERY nice '06 E55 on the market soon.

 

 

Thanks, but I'm not much on mods, especially one as complex as a engine swap. I'm thinking more in terms of factory cars. My car has wheels and tires, Eurocharged tune, and a paddle shift wheel. That's about as modded as I go.

 

I can tell you (because I have driven a few) They are very heavy, typical Mercedes and are not intended to be a hot rod drag racing car, power comes on progressively at first and then you feel a heavy thrust once car is on its way. In my opinion its a car that does well between 90-150+ mph - a high speed silent cruiser, I will say the thrust once underway is very strong and will put a smile on your face every time!
I had way more fun driving a CLK63 coupe.

 

There's no way I'd own a TT V12 Mercedes. They have their issues and are very expensive to fix. The ABC suspension on the CL is also problematic and expensive to fix. FWIW, the CL is basically the S class coupe and are still big cars.

 

Does anyone know anything about the issues, if any, with the SL65? Any driving impressions? Do they have the ABC suspension? How is the V12TT regarding reliability, what are the known issues? Thanks so much guys, please keep your much appreciated opinions coming.

 

Depends on the generation, the pre-07 cars had more suspension issues than anything, but overall the V12 is actually quite reliable. The coil packs will fail at some point, which is a pricey replacement, but it's a one time thing. The earlier cars drive more 'raw' I think, the 216/221 chassis cars feel much more heavy and ponderous to me than my 215 or even a 220 S class, but they are large, heavy cars. The ABC does a good job of controlling the body motions, more than any air suspension can do, and they feel very tight for the size/weight. An SL is even lighter/smaller, but then you have the convertible top issues which are a pain in the *** for sure.

 

Yes ,don’t buy it if there’s no warranty ,and once that warranty is up ,sell it ASAP!

 

Yeah, ABC is a pain but there is some hope. A company in Florida, VVK, is making a shock and spring conversion with sway bars. It's been in the works for a while but looks close to completion. I may do that to my V12 SL. I've never had any very few issues with the bi-turbo V12 engine. Once you get the ABC out of there, it would be relatively cheap to own.

 

Coils suck too

 

Early ABC is a needy system, but once sorted, there's no way a set of cheap coilovers can compete. The weight of these cars is too much, it's just not fun with simple suspension. Or, you put coiliovers that are very stiffly sprung, and now you've got good handling (for a 5k lb boat) but your $100K+ luxury cruiser now rides like a crappy tuner car. No bueno.

Major ABC issues are lines (cheap enough new, or can be repaired aftermarket), and leaking valve block seals. If the system is kept from leaking out fluids, it rarely loses the pump. The struts also rarely leak, in my experience. The lines fail often near the engine bay, but regular inspections and replacement before they blow out would be fairly cheap. Even an E55 has airmatic, which requires regular strut/spring replacements and the compressors/valve blocks burn up easily if the system leaks at all and isn't corrected right away.

I replaced all 3 lines in the engine bay, all 4 accumulators, and my pump, for less than 2k in parts. Only thing I didn't buy from MB was the pump, an AC Delco reman was $250 instead of $1500 for a new one. Works fantastically, gives me 195 Bar running and goes through rodeo with ease.

 

Well, in looking at all the alternatives, I'm thinking if I were to do this, a '05 to '08 SL65 AMG would be the likely target. I'd rather the car be a bit small than too big, and I can do without the rear seat as the wife is about to get a new Audi Q7 in a couple of months. Funny, I was told the E55 would be a nightmare on maintenance, and it really hasn't been as bad as I was told.

All that being said, what's the dividing line for generations between the "05 and '08 models? Are they all the same? If not what's the differences? So far what I'm picking up is the power train has few known issues other than the coil packs, the ABS suspension system requires maintenance, but pre-emptively replacing the lines usually takes care of typical issues, and the retractable hardtop can be a maintenance issue as well. I'm thinking that the airmatic in the E55 and the ABC in these cars is a tossup on maintenance and reliability, is that a fair assumption?

I'm not really concerned about sport handling, this is more of a highway/boulevard cruiser that I can drop the hammer on and grin once in a while. I've got another car, it's a quick and well handling sports car to take care of the other stuff. The E55 doesn't exactly make one head off to a autocross to compete, either.

Please keep the input coming, positive or negative. I'm eager to learn. Thanks so much.

 

On the SL, 06-08 is all the same, 09 was the model change.

I'm biased, I love the V12 cars and think there's nothing out there like it, I bought my CL for under 20k, in basically perfect condition. All the things that have failed are age related, 15 year old rubber parts don't last forever, and the coils get cooked after that time as well, once replaced, they are usually good for another 15 years. Coils are $1k/ea, nothing major on a car that stickered for $130,000 back in 2003.

The car is stupid fast for an old luxury car, as quick as a new corvette with just a tune on a 600, which is about what a stock 65 is.

 

Joe, your information and experience is greatly appreciated. You mentioned that the 06-08's are the same. What's the differences on the '05's? I'm assuming these engines respond well to a tune, similar to my E55? What would you think a good quality tune could do to a SL65 from a reputable place like Eurocharged? Again, thanks!

 

The 05 is pre facelift, different lights and trim stuff, i'm not super up on the SL, i'm sure there's info on the wiki page or in the SL area.

The V12 cars gain more from a tune than the e55, way more. A 65 picks up 50-80hp depending on the car and tune, the 600 cars gain nearly 100hp due to being more de-tuned stock.

 

Only get a V12 if you are interested in the fact that it's a V12. If you want power there's better ways to milk some out of your M113K, or simply save up and get a newer model where the ceiling is higher.

 

The SL 65 Black Series is a shock with coil over suspension. The ones that have made the conversions on the SL's seem to like it better than the ABC. Also, the SL350 came with a shock and spring setup. Most cars come with a shock and spring setup and I don't hear too many complaints. A shock and spring setup conversion will save many SL's, S's, and CL's, from hitting the scrap heap.

Look, the last two ABC equipped cars I've owned consumed more than $30k in repairs. When ABC is working, it's great. When it's not, it can eat up half the value if a used CL or SL. That's no bueno.

 

The SL65 Black is also 600lbs lighter than a normal SL. I don't mention those as they are still well into the 200k range.

It's the weight that kills these cars without the active suspension. I can hustle my CL around like the GT it's supposed to be, and it feels incredibly capable. Is it like my 350Z Nismo was? Absolutely not. But it has twice the power, 3x the torque, and when not at the extreme limit, is much more relaxing to drive than the Z. You don't feel the fact that it's almost 1500lbs heavier as much as you should, because of the suspension.

I know it's money, I'm a tech, so I do the work myself and it's still expensive. But for me, if you can't keep it, this isn't the right car for you. It changes the character of the car too much to be without it. I've driven 220s with airmatic, and it just feels ponderous and large, where the ABC cars are remarkably well sorted for such a yacht of a vehicle.

 

I have owned both cars.
Be prepared to spend money on the V12TT

 

the engine itself in regards to maintenance and repair? since this engine is new to us would you mind sharing some of those issues and costs?

from what i've gathered over the years, the only thing that goes out on the V12TT engines themselves are ignition coils and maybe turbos.

 

Other than ABC, coil packs fail and are very expensive. Idler pulleys will fail. In addition, I had a coolant tower fail. The weight savings on the Black Series come from ABC removal and removal of convertible top, top hydraulic motors, and carbon fiber roof. The Black is only slightly lighter according to Car and Driver but I have seen some sources say it is 550 lbs lighter than standard 65. Removal of the ABC will get you within 50 or so lbs of the black series. The 600 is 4411 lbs so with the ABC removed it would be lighter than the 65 Black Series if Car and Driver is correct.

Black Series curb weight = 4350 lbs
Regular SL65 curb weight = 4564
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...s-second-drive
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...trumented-test
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...s-second-drive

 

You can buy the coils individually for 50 usd and solder them in as they fail. Just don't be an idiot removing the coil sets and break them. Also you can buy a whole set for 900 dollars and rebuild them yourself. Little expensive for coils but that's the nature of the beast.

The abc system if properly maintained like said before you will just have some lines fail from age. Abc > airmatic, price is comparable.

If you can do all the work yourself the v12tt cars are very rewarding. If you have to take your car to the dealer because you can't get the trunk open when the battery is dead. Be prepared too spend some money like any Mercedes. Smaller city dealers won't know what they are looking at which could cost you lots in the end.

 

Airmatic maintenance costs are no where near as expensive as ABC. Not even in the same ball park. In less than 200k miles of driving, the ABC cost me around $30k to maintain. In close to 250k miles, Airmatic may have cost me around $6k and that's including warranty work. Airmatic is also way easier to fix, maintain, and much more reliable.

 

ABC compressor itself for a CL55 is upwards of 1,500 or more. when you include labor a shop i went to locally said for that chassis labor and parts for the compressor are a shade over 5k.

 

the black series also has a completely different front suspension design and you can't even take the components off of a BS and use them on a regular 65. one thing not yet mentioned is that the motor mounts require engine removal and that is gonna cost a couple grand. the coil packs have been mentioned, and the front rotors are 1k each (though you can replace the rings with parts direct from brembo for a bit less). the SL is probably one of the highest maintenance and least reliable cars you are going to find. i have a sl55 and have dropped 10 grand on mostly just parts (supplied labor myself on most things) and ive owned if for the last 20k miles (currently at 94k). i also have an e55 and the sl55 is a money pit by way of comparison when you figure in possible top issues, abc problems, etc. the sl65 is going to come with higher labor rates on most items due to a more restrictive engine bay and the abc hose routing is different compared to the 55. anyone telling you the 07+ models that have ABC II are more reliable are just not at all familiar with the system. the differences between the pre 07 ABC and post 07 are very slight and the reason you hear more complaints regarding earlier year cars is there were a **** load more early cars built and they have also had more age on them. the changes on the abc system are: pulsation dampener on pump instead of in wheel well (which helps take some stress of a single hose, but also makes it much harder to replace the dampener), the rear hose routing is slightly different (no change in performance), a different company makes the valve blocks, but the operation is identical and the issue with the are oring deterioration and dirt build up both of which are something that you just can't fix with a different sign, the computer also will instead of locking the valves in the block at a stop like when the car is off it instead will slightly open and close the valve at a stop to help relieve a very small amount of stress on the hoses. that is it. over the model years the hoses in some locations had heat wrap added (this was pre 07) and thats it. the 07+ cars will have near the same reliability as an earlier car so don't be fooled into thinking the 07+ ABC II cars have fixed the issues with the ABC system. hydraulic hose life is a function of heat and age and there is no amount of changes to the system that are going to change that fact.