norb

"Two words to explain why so many BMW fans visit here and make a fool of themselves.

Insecurity complex"

No it more like SP syndrome. I'll let you guess what SP stands for.

BlownV8

"01 M5 means the car is either made from 09/00 to 04/01. So he could be in that range. In addition, if you are going to classify one case as indictive of entire engine range. Same can holds true for my defective E55. Because my E55 has defective airmatic, you don't see me classify airmatic is un-reliable or a piece of crap."

I knew you were going to say that. However, remember that he had close to 20,000 miles when he thew a rod on the motor so it probably was 2002 or maybe even 2003 depending on when he purchased the car. 10,000 miles per year is average and on higher line cars it's often less than that. So with this in mind, the engine was probably ordered from the factory and replaced in 2002 or 2003 which would mean the engines were still prone to failure.

As far as the problem with your airmatic suspension, if you had problems with it, there is a very good chance that they are defective in all the cars. I have found through many years of German car ownership that the cars are very consistent either good or bad. Let's take the 210 E55. All MAF's are going to fail, just about all dashes are going to crack, and all cats are going to rattle. Unless BMW had a big change in their production and recognized the problem very early on, it is very likely that all the M5 engines have a very high probability of failure.

To me, engine failure is the absolute worst flaw you can have in any car. The single most expensive component to replace is that engine and a defective engine will leave you stranded. I would much rather have smaller less significant things break on my car than what powers the car to get me home. Sure, no defects would be the best scenario but if we really wanted the most dependable car with no soul we'd have bought a Toyota Camry. BMW and Mercedes have a long way to go, judging by recent and past JD Powers surveys, in their quest for zero defects.

Pbglas

Not to contradict your main point -- which I agree with -- but it seems in JD Powers initial quality assessment, MB and Toyota are not that far apart -- and BMW and Audi are not that much worse than MB:

http://www.jdpa.com/news/releases/pr...ID=2004037#top

BlownV8

For 2004 you are correct since Mercedes is 10th and Toyota is 9th but then again look at the price point. Mercedes has the highest price point of any of the other manufacturers listed so they should be number one and not behind a company with an average price point below their starting point.

For 2003, Mercedes was 28th. That sucks! Toyota was number 6.

stephens

How is this going to happen. Sjould they stop putting bleeding edge automotive technolgy into passenger cars so they can get better ratings than Toyota? I think the quality surveys are basically flawed, because they do not account for teething and development problems with new technology which should be expected. I was looking at an S600, but my son quite rightly pointed out that all the systems (stereo/nav etc ) were one generation technologically older and he considered it as taking a step backwards. Are you suggesting that we all do the same thing in a quest for a survey result?

As a final note these AMG/M threads are a joke. I will try and exercise restraint and ignore them from here on in, until I see one from someone who actually has a new M5, directly comparing it to the E55. Anyone comparing the E39 M5 to the W211 is a fool and should be treated as such.
I would further suggest that a sticky thread/warning to all school kids wanting to spread daddys "wisdom" (Kain and company), to shut the f*ck up, is also added to the forum.

phinnbill

If you haven't tried a Toyota Camry then do not knock it. I am not sure what BlownV8 means by "soul" (as I suspect it can be different for each make of car and very subjective) but I love my '02 Camry SE V6. It is a little "sportier" than the regular Camry, has a full size spare tire, and the quality is top notch. Just change the oil and filter frequently and it runs great. And in the winter I can drive it in the snow. While it will never replace my M5 (or an E55, Sl600, RS6, etc.) my Camry is a solid car that never fails to deliver. And it runs on regular fuel -- which currently is not a bad thing.

BlownV8

"I think the quality surveys are basically flawed, because they do not account for teething and development problems with new technology which should be expected. "

I understand what you are saying but if the technology is not ready then it should not be released to the masses. I don't really feel Mercedes has always been cutting edge. Look at how long they stuck with CIS injection. Mercedes was still using that onto the 90's.

The problems Mercedes is having is with basic quality. Look at the 210 E55. You will get cracked dashes, blown cats, driver side headrests that do not work, bad MAF's, and all kind of other electrical failures. I for one am pissed that Mercedes is not producing near the quality of cars that it should. I am a huge German car fan and I currently own two Mercedes but just sold my third one a few weeks ago. I still love Mercedes design, style, and performance but I may not get another one until I see some big improvements in basic quality and customer service. I think you get better customer service at a Ford dealership!

I think BMW is just as guilty as Mercedes of producing inferior quality vehicles. Well, at least, inferior compared to other marques. Mercedes still ranks a little higher than BMW's in a few areas: the quality and reliability of their engines and styling.

Belmondo

OK , dude, when will Porsche "recognize" that "using compressors is wrong"?
Or is it only wrong for AMG? Loco

amg55

Max_e55 = Kain

'Neither' owns a car or has driven any of the cars under discussion.
'Both' claim the same things about M5 vs. E55 despite the fact that there's zero hard data available about the M5.

Jon200

My god, changing usename just to stir up more in here.

I suppose all this about his dad selling e55 for M5 is trash too?

krispykrme

No that member threw a rod on his original engine. The 2nd replacement he got was a defective unit and it was never installed. His third engine is fine. Therefore he is on a new engine is 2003 and his 1st engine is the one that threw a rod. So my comment is still correct. This is an isolated events. Not including me, I have know quiet a few M5 owner that are fine with their engines. M5 has been in production through out 3 generation. Those engine are fine except for earlier production.

In addition, I still do not believe my airmatic issue on the E55 is going to be a general problem on many W211.

My daily beater E500's airmatic works fine. It has twice as many miles on it. I still believe that my E55 problem is an isolated event.

Like i said, I had two m cars and none of them suffered any kind of mechanical issues. My E55 other than the charger chirp, SBC, and Airmatic is not in that bad of mechanical shape.

Although I am not happy that they can not resolve the intermittent failure on airmatic, I still do not think airmatic will be a problem area for W211. My experience on the e500 would tell me other wise.

krispykrme

Look at this way, even though AMG has a charger, it does not mean that the engine is not under duress. Yes, it has lower RPM. But in order to compensate for denser air (more heat), you see that AMG tuned down the compression ratio to decrease the load on the engine itself.

To state that AMG super charged engine has much less stress than M is ridiculous. M5 has higher compression and higher revving engine. But AMG has excess heat and pressure to deal as well. So this is a mute point. There are tons of high revv engine that has long life as well. Take look at any honda DOHC VTEC product.

The point i am trying to make is very straight forward. M engine does not die after 100k miles that easy. Do i expect it to be trouble free to 300k miles? Of course not. But 100K miles is reachable.

And I do not believe that charged AMG car would live 3 times longer than M car. The 1st generation high rev M3 (E30) has seen mileage up to 150k. So could anyone expect that AMG charged car to live to 450k without engine work is just ridiculous.

Our AMG charged engine car are not that old. No one can say for certain the long term effect of charged car. In reality, charged car would suffer performance downgrade faster than NA counter part.

I know this is MB board. But don't drawn any conclusion with out even seeing the data 1st.

W210

Absolutely agree with you there, another important area is how well the car protects the passengers in an accident.

Ahmed

I have a modded E39 M5 and I get *****-slapped by E55 AMG's on a regular basis!

I am sorry, but that supercharger and quad exhausts sound aswum! Even my Supersprint MAGNUMS dont come any closer to it!

Now imagine that same E55 AMG with a KLEEMAN kompressor! OH MY GOD!

here's my baby!

BlownV8

Stunning! That is one great looking car. I can't believe they screwed-up the new design so badly!

BlownV8

"M5 has higher compression and higher revving engine. But AMG has excess heat and pressure to deal as well. So this is a mute point. "

No, not it's not a moot point. The supercharger on the AMG motor is providing boost for probably only around 10% of the time the car is on the road if you are a very aggressive driver and much less if you are not. The other 90%+ of the time it is free spinning under vacuum conditions and is under virtually no strain at all. However, the M5 motor is constantly under the strain of high compression. The AMG motor also has a very effective air to water intercooler to cool that air down so the engine does not over heat.

Ahmed

right on buddy..

could not have put it any better myself!

cte430

Wow, this thread must be some kind of record for the most posts without the original poster participating! Had to be a troll.

krispykrme

I seriously doubt the 10% claim. I do agree that it really depends on the driver. But the truth is that AMG did lower the compression ratio on the V8 to deal with the charger heat. No matter how effective the heat tranfer is. You can't expect that the intake air temperature would be the same as NA engine. Nor you can expect the pressure inside to be the same either.

M5's compression ratio would probably be between 10-11 to 1. Although high, we have seen such engine last a long time before.

In couple years we can see the effect of both. However, at this time, I just believe the claim our charged engine would be 3 times durable than the new M engine is just beyond stupid.

If we are comparing the NA AMG engine, perhaps it make sense.

BlownV8

10% is a high number unless you are a really aggressive driver. Do you spend 10 minutes of every hour on boost? Dr. Chill need not answer this question. You won't unless you are on a track or are really tough on the car and driving in the city for that hour. When you are driving down the highway, once again unless you are a madman on the road, you will probably only be under boost maybe 1% of the time. Think about how much extra that blower is really wearing on the engine.....not much.

There is really not much extra heat with an effectively intercooled supercharger system and extra wear and tear is almost non existent when you are not on boost. That's the beauty of an intercooled supercharger system. When you are on boost the increase in air temp is not that extreme and when you are off boost there is virtually no increase in temp. You have the best of both worlds: a low compression motor with virtually no wear and a supercharger to effectively increase the power of your motor by 50% when you want the extra go.

A low compression properly intercooled supercharged engine should outlast a naturally aspirated engine with the same output by a good margin. That naturally aspirated motor has to be wound so tightly and be able to rev so much higer to be able to make the same hp and tq as a forced induction engine.

To really determine how long an engine is going to lasy you must look at the Mean Effective Pressure. The MEP is the way engineers measure the stresses on internal combustion motors from the inside out. In other words, it is the constant strain on the motor. A high compression motor will have a higher average MEP than a moderatly boosted low compression motor such as the E55. The engine with the higher average MEP will see more internal stresses than an engine with a low MEP and therfore will usually see more wear and tear. Think of a motorcycle. How many high performance motorcycles you see with a 100,000 plus miles and still have the same power they had when they had 1,000 miles. Heck, think of one that has 70% of the power it had with 1,000 miles and you probably can't think of any. Those motors usually wear pretty quickly due to the high internal stresses.

Ahmed

its 11:1

AMG FANATIC

I agree! And I LOVE that colour.

stephens

kripsy posted this on the M5 board

norb

KK is the E55 forum idiot. Just a step above Kain.

His stories are full of contradictions and when we point them out he just ignores them.

Still waiting for him to post pictures of his 2 new M5's. One of which should be a track car.

And remember when we called him names and he started to cry about name calling? Now he comes here and calls us rednecks? What a joke!

Jon200

sweet ride Ahmed, nice ram intakes at your front bumper too.