Dr Chill

Spent a good part of the day driving my mother-in-law's E500 today to see how it was running after 22 months and 10,000 miles. How anyone can say they prefer to drive it over the E55 is beyond me. Any respect for the credibility of those posters who prefer the E500 was lost immediately when I kept praying for the supercharger to kick in and I couldn't help feeling about 15 years older while behind the wheel.

The $20,000 difference between the two vehicles seems like a pittance when I got behind the wheel of the E55 again. Maybe the 19" rims and lower stance of mine over a stock E55 can account for some of the difference, but the AMG handling seemed vastly superior to the factory MB. Oh, and there's that little thing called exhaust note.

Am I the only one that thinks that someone who owns an E500 and an E55 that enjoys the E500 more should have their head examined or have a chromosomal analysis looking for an extra X in there somewhere?

AMGe55

Hear Hear I agree with you 100%. The e500 is a fairly quick car but the e55 has made me laugh out loud while driving by myself.

Vic

Chill-

I couldn't agree with you more.

Blocktrader

I had an E500 for about six months before trading it for my 55. I even had 18 inch wheels on it. The 500 is a really nice normal car. The 55 is special. Ther is no aspect of the 500's handling that equals the 55. However, due to the reduced grip a standard 500 would have, it might be possible for someone to think it felt more nimble because of the lighter steering.

norb

I'd say something but it would start a flame war.

imthduke

One outstanding reason the E55 steps up to the plate over the E500

theitalianjob

Great color combo, imthduke......

can we get more pics plz??

CynCarvin32

but here is a short reason why an E500 IMHO is more fun to drive.

In the E55 (which I just got back from a road trip in), the first thing you notice when asking the car to change direction is that the front end just does not want to go where asked without letting its presence be known. Yes the car does do what you ask but it does so in a manner that is less than "nimble."

4187 vs. 3812 is a big difference in weight. I know the car is not a race car and I know it is not something that most people plan to race around a road course or down their favorite canyon road. But some of us do push our cars and those of us do see a difference between the E500 and the E55.

When a car has over 200 extra pounds shoved up over and in front of the front axle, there is no physical way the car can be as nimble as one without that added mass. Add up the increased weight from the supercharger, intercooler, added motor bracing, increased cooling capacity, increased oil cooling/capacity, and larger (and very heavy) brakes and you have a very good amount of mass in the E55 that does not exist in the E500.

A car like the Honda S2000 (and NO I am NOT trying to compare the two cars as equals here) has a very low slung motor with virtually the entire motor placed behind the front axle (same in the SLR, Quatroporte -- a direct competitor to the E55, RX-8 etc -- all cars regarded to be extremely nimble and neutral when pushed in an aggressive manner. Honda uses the term "moment of transitional yaw" to describe that moment when a driver asks the car to change its course. So when you turn the wheel of an E55 there is more "stuff" up front that must change direction and this yaw leads to the car being less "nimble" than a E500. So those aforementioned cars have less mass up front and this helps them respond more quickly to driver inputs and allows them to not “plow” when pushed hard.

Now I would like to clarify a point here. The E55 is worlds faster than an E500 and as my 2 hr drive just showed, the E55 owns the freeway/interstate in every way. It is very stable, extremely fast, and amazingly comfortable. With 469 hp the car fears few cars and those cars normally cost in excess of 130k. But for me, power means little in how fun a car is to drive. Some like to drag race some like to road race and others enjoy “nimble and fast 4 door cars.” No one category of driver is better than the other.

The E500 is rather softly sprung (does ok in Sport II for there is less mass to haul around and therefore a softer spring rate can be used to make a car respond well -- all that weight requires the E55 to be stiffer to achieve the same level of roll and rebound control). The E500 is nowhere near as fast as the E55. But IMHO, the E500 feels more nimble and therefore I call it more "fun" or "responsive" than the E55.

If I had to pick 1 W211 to own, I might say the E500 but I most likely would keep the E55.

Is the E55 a great car? Yes. Could it be better in some ways? Yes. Am I here to cause anger or a flaming war? No

AMG has said that the current batch of AMG Kompressor V8’s is too heavy and all future cars do not use supercharged motors. The engineers see an issue and they will address it in the near future. Yes the kompressor motor has great upgradeability but it does cost drivers a bit in terms of driver enjoyment. Some may love the current E55 in every way and I hope they continue to fall more and more in love with their cars every mile driven. I like my car but I see an area that could be improved.

As for wheels, tires and suspension setting helping solve this issue, I see that as a futile effort for mass is mass. You can’t mask that fact. Weight distribution and mass location do affect chassis dynamics.

If this post was not civil and done in good taste let me know. I honestly think this is a polite post and I am here to discuss not insult or stir up trouble. We all have our unique viewpoints and I respect what everyone thinks and has to say.


Post away!

Signal

Not trying to be too rude here, but..thats horse ****.!

Yes they are moving to 6.5 litre NA engine, but if you think that weight was an issue, you've been huffing too much glue.. the 6.5 litre will outweigh the current Kompressor engines easily. Please tell us your source for this "AMG has said" information please.. I will eat my words if you can show me where AMG said this..


Also, Im not disagreeing with your post opinions at all, your opinion is your own, but I would say that 300 pounds of "sprung weight" is really not enough to create a significant difference in the feel of the nimbleness of a car. Im not saying its not there at all, just that it would be very small.. I would say that the tires, wheels, and stiffer suspension add to the feel of the two cars nimbleness more then anything, and you and a few others simply prefer the E500.. Others prefer the E55. The way to see which is better is to simply run both in a SOLO2 event.. case closed... and im betting on the E55..

CynCarvin32

Thank you for the insult. I disagree and I say your post was disrespectful and in poor taste. Please feel free to disagree with me and all other board users but saying you have no respect for me based on my opinion is closed minded and pathetic. When people ask for a civil forum, posts like this can be frustrating. Our government was founded on a premise of protecting the voice of the minority but this forum often tries to silence opinions that are not commonly held by all users. That does not seem right to me.

My genetic make up is just fine thanks! I have pilot grade eye sight, athlete grade cardiovascular endurance (BP 105/65 Resting hear rate of 41 bla bla bla), above average intelligence bla bla bla....

Oh hey I forgot to add that I have 2 arms, 2 legs, 2 eyes, 1 nose 1 mouth and various other normal items as well! And oh...for the record my head is doing great too! No bumps, no holes, no loose bolts, and last time I knocked on it, it sounded like there was a good dose of grey matter in between my two normal (and well sized) ears. But thanks for reminding me to check...I can rest assured tonight!

Disagree with my opinion of a vehicle? By all means! Insult my intelligence and character based on my opinion? I don't see any reason for that...do you?

I am not saying your opinion is "wrong" but your method of discourse is less than respectful.

CynCarvin32

Fair enough...

but 1 quick thing.... Lets look at the old M119 V8 MB motor. So you have a 5.0L E500. So you take the nice closed deck motor and have it bored out to 6.5L and increase power from 322 to over 450. You put in lighter pistons, rods, valves, and valve springs and the motor weighs more than a stock 5.0L motor? Am I missing something here? Maybe I am. But I honestly think it will weigh less than simply bolting a blower and all ancillary parts to the top of the stock 5.0L motor.

So lets look at the weight of the new direct injection gas motor used in the SLK350 and compare that to the old 3 valve 320 motor. I bet the new motor weighs less. So with that same reasoning the 5.0L new direct injection gas motor will weigh less than a old 3 valve 5.0L motor -- and this leaves the whole supercharged weight out of the equation. It will be lighter... If the new E65 is heavier than the 4200 lbs E55, mb can kiss any hope of a performance sedan away.

Anyone have the weights for those two motors mentioned above? I am not asking for curb weights but the weights for just the motors alone. Remember a C32k motor weighs just 12 lbs less than a C43 based V8 (something I think I recall amg saying themselves).

Signal

good points , but your making assumptions that arent fact yet..

There is no reason to assume the new engine will be a bored 5.5 or 5.0 litre. With AMG's need for quality and durability, simply boring out the existing engine would lessen that which they care about.

Second, as you mentioned in your own post, a good deal of weight is the ancillaries for cooling, etc, which will not be going away on the 6.5 with the exception of the S/C. I believe personally the 6.5 will be a new cast design, and therefore be as strong and durable if not moreso then the current 5.5's. this will mean more metal and more weight.


I presonally think that the move away from forced induction is a huge mistake. But I understand that AMG is also brilliant with their design, so it will be a good engine no matter what, but Im sure those owners will miss the torque dearly....

CynCarvin32

I don’t want to start a physics lesson here but 300 pounds located in the front of a car is HUGE. As ANY chassis engineer if that will cause a car to be less nimble and respond more slowly to inputs. It is simple physics...


Did you read about the RENNtech supercharged E500? That car had a non IHI blower installed and this car weighed only slightly more than the stock E55. RENNtech used a different blower for it created less heat and weighed much less than the IHI set-up. Autoweek drove the car and said it was "how AMG should have made the E55 in the first place" for it was fast as an E55 in a straight line but went through the corners as well as the E500. Their opinion was the AMG E55 was less impressive through the cones and on the test track than the E500 with performance tires. They simply felt that the lighter RENNtech E500k was more fun than the E55. I know my review of the how the RENNtech E500k droves will be dismissed as BS so I post what Autoweek had to say.

Signal

I read that article, and probably would agree with it.. but your chainging the apples and oranges now for grapes.. the rennTech E500 is not what we were talking about, and the rennTech E500 forgoes alot of the other benefits of the E55.. So I dont really want to go down that road.. I agree that it may "feel" more fun to some, but that was kind of my point in my earlier reply to you.. its a personal preference.. I dont think actual performance tests will bear out that an E500 is more nimble then an E55.. Im sure someone will have done a solo2 event in both soon enough.. and we can get their thoughts on it.

CynCarvin32

"good points , but your making assumptions that arent fact yet..

There is no reason to assume the new engine will be a bored 5.5 or 5.0 litre. With AMG's need for quality and durability, simply boring out the existing engine would lessen that which they care about."

--- AMG does not have the funds to build a different V8 for its performacne devision and there is no way to go from 5.5L to 6.3L without boring the block. Might the motor be braced and strengthened like the current 5.5L Kompressor motor? Yes..but that will not be as heavy as the blower and all added parts. The kompressor adds so much stress to teh motor (the effective compression ration is so much higher with boost even though it is lowered from 10:1 to 9:1. All the extra air causes a great deal of stress. The current motor needed bracing but I dont see the new motor needing such bracing. The M119 motor did not need bracing to go to 6.5L to 5.0L(an AMG built motor) so lets hope the new motor does not as well.

"Second, as you mentioned in your own post, a good deal of weight is the ancillaries for cooling, etc, which will not be going away on the 6.5 with the exception of the S/C. I believe personally the 6.5 will be a new cast design, and therefore be as strong and durable if not moreso then the current 5.5's. this will mean more metal and more weight."

-- MB has already stated that the new generation motor is lighter than the last. I dont have quotes but motors will get lighter as time passes..not heavier


"I presonally think that the move away from forced induction is a huge mistake. But I understand that AMG is also brilliant with their design, so it will be a good engine no matter what, but Im sure those owners will miss the torque dearly.... "

--- blowers are great fun but I find the chirp/lurch of the blower turning on as slightly odd for such an expensive car (but its fine with me). Under the idea that the new motor will be lighter, I will let the blower go for the hope of a more nimlbe car next time around. If you want cheap ways to make the E55 have 600 hp the lack of a blower will be a real set back.

The torque will be missed but the 7-gang tranmission will be of great help and the addition of a better rear-end ratio will make the two car near equal in performance. A 2.65 rear-end is a joke and a 2.82 or a 3.07 will help with the reduction in torque.[/B][/QUOTE]

CynCarvin32

Well said but I am not sure where the E500k falls short of the E55k in what it has to offer or what it delivers (benefits etc). Care to share you opinion? I would have to see the two as the same basic car. But what's your take?

Off to bed...got to be at the gym at 8:00am

Signal

Im not suggesting AMG is making the new engine.. Im suggesting that MB is.. =) AMG will just tune it. dont forget AMG is wholly owned by MB.. so they have tons of money if MB says they do. They have had a banner year in sales lately for AMG's so I wouldnt discount AMG getting a bit of blank check status on R&D.

They have a whole new slew of cars coming out 2006-07-08 and theres no reason to think a new engine wont come with them...


As for the chirp.. I dont have it on me E55.. i guess im lucky.. If I did have it it might annoy me.. As for the lurch, I dont have that either.. or else im just considering a lurch to be more of what I feel when im riding in my friends 500hp S4.. the turbos are really violent... my SC is very smooth..

AFAIK, 7g is not coming anytime soon to AMG cars.. but maybe with the NA engine, and loss of torque, it can handle AMG power then.. dunno.. Current 5 speed is rated to 750ft/lbs. Current 7g is something like 420. (dont quote me on that)

As for what the rennTech is missing vs the E55.. its tons of things..

Beefed up and tuned transmission, exhaust, brakes, suspension.... on and on...

Now if your taking about doing all that as well as the SC rennTech style to an E500 your talking a good 30k over the cost of the E500 maybe more? and your adding alot more weight... Which again makes the comparison of the cars a little less usefull.. or maybe makes the point... they will feel the same?



Good talkin to ya..

later..

EDWARD CONROY

Dr. Chill was perhaps a bit over the top in his wording, as many of us get when attempting to strongly express an opinion, but I agree with his basic thought even though I've never driven an E500. He wrote about people who "preferred" driving an E500. This is a sedan, for Pete's sake. I want nimble I buy something else. To prefer a more nimble E500 over the total excitement the speed of the E55 provides makes no sense to me either.

norb

Canyon, you're wrong, all the extra weight isn't in the front of the E55, a lot of it is in the steel rear axle, which AMG switched to to cope with the extra torque, on the E500 and E320 that rear axle is aluminum. Also explains why the SL55 is heavier than the SL500. Its not all in the engine compartment.

Symbolic

You would be surprised how much the reduction in ROTATIONAL unsprung weight can affect a car's handling dynamics and steering response. Simply stated, mass isn't mass! Not all mass is equal!

I agree that the overall steering precision (i.e. steering response/feel and turn-in characteristics) of the E55 isn't nearly as crisp and sharp as it ought to be. That's why I'm purchasing some of the lightest 19" wheels available for the E55, the BBS RS-GT Japanese two-piece forged units (8.5" front, 9.5" rear). The fronts weigh 22.16 lbs, the rears 22.66 lbs!). By comparison, the OEM 18 x 8 and 18 x 9 wheels weigh about 35 lbs apiece!!! If that's not enough rotational weight reduction, one could also change the front brakes. The Brembo 15" 8-Piston units are about 6 lbs lighter per corner, while the Brembo 14" 4-Piston version are something like 12-18 lbs lighter per corner. While some of this weight reduction is due to a lighter caliper (NON-ROTATIONAL mass), most of the weight savings is derived from the far lighter two-piece floating brake rotors (ROTATIONAL mass).

By the way, the part numbers for the RS-GT wheels for the E55 application are RS-GT 958 for the fronts and RS-GT 961 for the rears. Both of these wheels are ET 32. If one prefers a Silver center (as opposed to the Black Diamond color that comes standard), the color code for the Silver is HDSPK. However, while the Black Diamond center wheels are immediately available, their Silver counterparts require a 6-8 week wait.

For the record, the Brabus and AMG multi-piece 19" wheels weigh about 35 lbs each (i.e. more or less the same weight as each of the OEM 18" wheels).

Now if I could only do something about the massive body lean/roll inherent in the DC Airmatic II suspension technology. If I could only retrofit an SL/CL/S ABC suspension system to my E55....

CynCarvin32

Norb,

The blower weighs in at over 90 lbs for a V8 powered car. The intercoolers are heavy as well. Throw in all the additional oil and trans coolers and the stonger mounting points and the bulk of the added mass is in the nose. I doubt the stronger rear subframe and diff housing are 100+ pounds.

And for the record, I dont think using cast steal was the way to go with those parts either. A nissan 350z has a carbonfiber drive shaft but ours is steal? MB should have used forger aluminium to keep weight down and strength high. The profit margin on the E55 is huge and an additional 5k of expenses at the same consumer price level would solve many of these issues. Maybe AMG needs to make less money per car in order to keep weight down but I know it can be done.

Weight distribution in the E55 is worse than in the E320/E500 so there must be more mass in the nose of the E55.

norb

Price point? Name another 4 door sedan that can keep up with the E55 that is less than the E55. Check out Renntech pricing to make an E500 go as fast as the E55 and stop as well to boot.

First you don't like the handling of the E55 now you're saying its over priced? Whatever.

krispykrme

cyncarvin32,

why are you bothering with this. we all know what kind of response that will be coming from this board.

strongly expressed? name calling is what i called. This forum deserves no respect what so ever.

CynCarvin32

I could not agree more wit your opinion on unsprung weight. My C32 had forged wheels that were 18-19 lb and that car rode more smoothly with 18's than with 17's. The reduction in mass clearly helped greatly.

If I start playing with the E55, I would first buy some forged 18 inch sheels, then I would buy racing rotors to go with the stock calipers ( or just do the whole BBk upgrade). You can save a ton of weight by changing to a 2 piece rotor on the stock caliper. AMG and Brabus wheels look great but weigh a TON.

But with all that saved weight, the car is still nose heavy. Furthermore, it is fairly hard to corner ballance an E55 being that the ride height is computer controlled.

CynCarvin32

Good moring to you as well..

putting words in my mouth again....do you know the profit margin on an AMG car? Doubt it.....

its a bit high if you ask me! Is the car a deal for the power it has? YES Could we get more for the 20k we pay over a E500...sure I see no reason why not!

You need to calm down norb and quit jumping into people's comments without reading them first.