W212 AMG Discuss the W212 AMG's such as the E63

Top Gear E63 vs M5

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Old 11-09-2011 | 02:22 AM
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2012 E63 PP, 2012 Ferrari 458, 2012 Boxster S
Top Gear E63 vs M5

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/bmw...1-08?imageNo=0

Or in free text:

New BMW M5 versus Mercedes E63 AMG
Enough talk, let’s get down to the serious business of thrashing...
Words: Ollie Marriage

Fog is rolling in at Dunsfold. Heavily localised and strangely acrid fog. It billows and swirls, with sudden explosive puffs, giving the sense it’s being replenished from within. And from its murky depths comes noise: a bassy, beastly roar. Lights twirl and flash within the fog, then a dark form takes shape. The noise clarifies to a howl and something erupts from the mist, towing a cloud behind it. It’s black, that much is certain, but inside there’s a brief flicker of pure white.

Something about Stig’s body language suggests contentment – and not just because his respiratory system functions better on vaporised rubber than oxygen. Yep, he likes a super saloon, does Stig. But don’t we all? Isn’t there something good and honest about a meaty saloon motivated by an excessively potent motor?

A delicious sense that a (literal) smokescreen of civility is concealing something more primal? In fact, isn’t the super saloon a metaphor for human society as a whole? Let’s not get carried away, this is only a car after all. But we like cars, so to us a new BMW M5 is A Big Deal. Especially now it’s mit turbos. We already know that James likes it very much indeed and that Stig won’t be parted from it until the tyres explode.

As a pair, they’re a brilliant barometer for the M5, representing the two extremes of potential owner and the two areas we expect the M5 to excel in. What’s needed now is something more direct, some help in defining just how successful BMW has been in taking the M5 forward. A rival.
The Merc E63 AMG. Now mit turbos too. Hot Mercs have faced off against brawny Bee-Emms for over a quarter of a century. Audi? Just a bit-part player at this level. Likewise Jaguar, though it’s a shame to admit it. AMG vs M, that’s where it’s at. And just look at the similarities. Both have moved away from natural aspiration and are claiming enormous leaps in torque and fuel economy, just £1,600 separates them on price, they’re divided by only 15lb ft of torque, 0.1secs to 62mph and nothing in top speed.

They only have eyes for each other. Both also use the same language to communicate with the outside world: quad pipes, jutting chins, big wheels – optional 20s on the BMW, but definitely the ones to have as the slender spokes reveal more of the newly painted blue calipers.

Bumpers and spoilers aside, the M5 sports no bodywork changes aside from a shift to aluminium instead of steel for some of the panels. The word to bear in mind here is ‘understated’. M5 owners don’t want to attract stares – a simple sense of muscular purpose is what’s desired. The Merc? Well, that tries a bit harder visually, with extra brightwork and more defined lines.
The E63 also has some truly exceptional touchpoints inside – really deep seats that clench your ribs and Alcanatara inserts on the steering wheel. You sit in it and know that something special is about to happen.

Not so in the BMW, or at least not to the same extent. It’s a more luxurious cabin, replete with plusher, wider seats, a far more modern dash design and an expansive array of new switches around the bespoke gearlever. But you couldn’t climb in with a blindfold on and know you were in an M5. Maybe this is a good thing. The sheer comfort on offer, the quality, the insulation, make the M5 a superior everyday proposition – the cabin is a lovely, relaxing place to spend time when you’re merely burbling about the place.

A quick word on family matters. These are genuine four-seaters in the way that even a Porsche Panamera isn’t – taller roofline, less claustrophobic in the back. You can have the E as a wagon, too. But not the BMW. In fact, never the BMW, if the M people are to be believed. Shame. Now, let’s get to the central issue here. BMW has long held that the engine is at the heart of every M car.

The cylinder count may have varied (this is only the second V8 M5), but the M5’s dedication to natural aspiration hasn’t wavered. Until now. It’s hardly surprising – the need to up power and lower emissions has necessitated the move to forced induction, but (1M aside) this is an area in which M division is short of practice compared to AMG, which has dabbled with turbo, super and natural at various points in its recent history.

Like any other sports car engine, it’s not enough for a super saloon to just hurl you down the road providing simple thrust and acceleration. As we’re finding out these days, electricity can do that. What internal combustion offers is character, but that’s tricky to nail when turbos are involved. Their spool-up times delay throttle response, mid-range grunt replaces top-end crescendo, and the curious path they force air to take around the engine means the noise is muted.

Don’t ask me how, but Merc has overcome every single one of these concerns. Turn the key and the 5.5-litre erupts into life, rocking the car, and from that moment on you’re swept away by its sheer charisma, barrel-chested delivery and a noise that’s pure, roaring, gargling baritone. It’s utterly, wonderfully, exuberantly rampant, an engine that plays to the gallery and has a sense of theatre that’s absent from the M5. To drive it is to love it.
So what of the BMW’s 4.4-litre bi-turbo? Is it a genuine M engine in the way that the 5.5-litre so perfectly captures what AMG is all about? Yes, it is. M doesn’t focus on the fripperies to the extent that AMG does, so it’s less shouty at start-up, but once up and running (and in both of these cars you have max torque from less than 2,000rpm) the BMW feels more focused – like it’s aiming at a point further down the road.

There’s a distant fizz of turbo noise, a bass-laden V8 rumble and then this immense surge of power. It’s totally remorseless, gaining strength above 4,500rpm and maintaining it for another 3,000rpm beyond that. It’s major league stuff – I suspect a 458 Italia would have trouble getting its nose back in front if either of these got a sniff of a lead. They make it so easy, especially the BMW. Its DSG gearbox is sublime.

There’s a well-founded rumour that BMW will again do a manual M5 for America. I wouldn’t have it – this just feels so well suited to the car now. The Merc’s auto has an equal number of ratios (seven), but isn’t nearly so fluid at shuffling between them. OK, Sport Plus mode does an uncanny job of being in the right gear at the right time, but manual is a dead loss due to the delay between gear selection and presentation. It’s these hiccups in the Merc that lend it a measure of both personality and frustration.

It’s a slightly clumsier car than the BMW, the front and rear ends aren’t so together, the ride is undoubtedly firmer, as are the seats, and there’s more than a little road noise. It doesn’t have the M5’s duality, but equally the M5 doesn’t possess the rabidity of a charging E63. You get the sense that AMG got it to a point, thought, ‘Well, that’s fun’, and left it alone.

Not so the M5. It’s the product of endless honing and hooning. Those buttons around the gearlever allow you to individually change the steering, suspension, engine response, traction and gearbox – three levels for each one. Often slightly redundant, here they fundamentally change the car’s behaviour from something that’ll cruise with the ease and refinement of
a 530d into something that’ll stalk supercars.

But it’s rarely intimidating to drive – there’s a sense of balance and flow to the M5 that allows the chassis to be exploited without being overly concerned about what might happen if you overdo it. Do us a favour and don’t fully disable the traction, though. The downside of this approachability is that the BMW never truly bares its fangs, giving it more in common with the only other V8 M5 – the E39, than its direct predecessor, the V10 E60. This could be down to the driver though, I think, as I watch Stig sling the M5 sideways and ride a slide so long and smoky that he needs to upshift to fourth partway through. Wow. If the M5 is good enough for Stig...

Ken
Old 11-09-2011 | 03:46 AM
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Damn, everyone keeps talking about how slow the gear changes are with the MCT in Manual mode, are they really truly that bad??
Old 11-09-2011 | 05:05 AM
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They are quick enough for me, im happy!

Obviously its not a PDK or anything, but its really more than quick enough and I never noticed the PDK getting THAT much of a jump on me on each gear change when I raced some.
Old 11-09-2011 | 08:06 AM
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Mercedes is quick to point out that gear changes happen in 0.1 sec, but what is the lag between the time that the upshift paddle is hit and the gear change actually happens?
Old 11-09-2011 | 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by looney100
Mercedes is quick to point out that gear changes happen in 0.1 sec, but what is the lag between the time that the upshift paddle is hit and the gear change actually happens?
The new 7 speed shifts in .01 (100 milliseconds) not .1 (tenth of a second)
Old 11-09-2011 | 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by 503C43 ////AMG
The new 7 speed shifts in .01 (100 milliseconds) not .1 (tenth of a second)
Then why have several car reviews and forum members indicated the 'Manual' mode shifting is so slow that they eventually just let the transmission shift for itself? I'm not trying to be sensational or anything, just really curious to know as a potential E63 owner.
Old 11-09-2011 | 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 503C43 ////AMG
The new 7 speed shifts in .01 (100 milliseconds) not .1 (tenth of a second)
100milliseconds = 0.1 seconds
0.01 seconds = 10milliseconds, I don't think so. F1 cars are 50milliseconds

At its most aggressive, the 599 GTB's F1-SuperFast transmission is able to shift gears in 100 milliseconds (0.1 second), compared to the 575M's 250 ms, or even the F430's 150 ms.
http://www.insideline.com/ferrari/59...iorano-f1.html
Old 11-11-2011 | 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon2007E63P30
100milliseconds = 0.1 seconds
0.01 seconds = 10milliseconds, I don't think so. F1 cars are 50milliseconds


http://www.insideline.com/ferrari/59...iorano-f1.html
Beat me to it
Old 11-11-2011 | 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by King335i
Then why have several car reviews and forum members indicated the 'Manual' mode shifting is so slow that they eventually just let the transmission shift for itself? I'm not trying to be sensational or anything, just really curious to know as a potential E63 owner.
There are two important numbers to consider here:

1) Is the delay between the driver hitting the paddle to upshift and the time that the transmission begins the gear change. This is what seems to be the complaint among drivers, and we don't know what this time is.

2)Is the amount of time that it takes to execute the gear change or how long the drivetrain is not being powered this is 0.1 seconds according to MB.

Can anyone give their thoughts on #1 above?
Old 11-11-2011 | 04:59 PM
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Just something I would like to point out, the germanautocar review said they though the e63 was more composed than the m5, but they could have confused stiffer handling with composed. I am dissapointed to keep hearing bad things about the e63 tranny. It is also cool how you can adjust all driving dynamics individually in the m. Either way I already ordered the 2012 e and think I will still be happy with my descision.
Old 11-12-2011 | 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by joshb63
Just something I would like to point out, the germanautocar review said they though the e63 was more composed than the m5, but they could have confused stiffer handling with composed. I am dissapointed to keep hearing bad things about the e63 tranny. It is also cool how you can adjust all driving dynamics individually in the m. Either way I already ordered the 2012 e and think I will still be happy with my descision.
Yeah I would really like to get into a '12 E63, but I keep hearing these reviews that comment on the slow shifting transmission, what gives?
Old 11-12-2011 | 08:43 AM
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W212 E63
Anyone know whEn this is airing or when it will be avail on iTunes?
Old 11-14-2011 | 06:06 PM
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2012 MB E63 Wagon, 2012 BMW M5, 2010 Porsche 911 Turbo S, 2010 Ferrari 458
My dealer is letting me try a CLS 63 today to see what the gearbox is like. I'll report back what I think.

Edit: I drove a 2012 CLS63 for 90 minutes today. I didn't like it. The gearbox feels slow and the engine is laggy. Admittedly I'd driven to the dealer in my S65 but if the E63 feels even remotely like the CLS 63, I'm not buying one.

I expected to order a new car today (even told my wife I was :o) but after the drive I told the dealer not to bother doing the numbers.

Last edited by mhh; 11-15-2011 at 04:51 AM.
Old 11-23-2011 | 11:21 AM
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Why the heck didn't they run them on the Top Gear track??!!!!!??!!!

Since Stig was whacking over the BMW, like to see how close the 2 would come to each other time wise.

Another review I just read of the 2, has it VERY much closer with the Benz edging out the W.
Old 11-24-2011 | 11:19 PM
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'12 e63 p30
Originally Posted by Jakpro1
Why the heck didn't they run them on the Top Gear track??!!!!!??!!!

Since Stig was whacking over the BMW, like to see how close the 2 would come to each other time wise.

Another review I just read of the 2, has it VERY much closer with the Benz edging out the W.
Could you give me a link?
Old 11-25-2011 | 12:14 AM
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When will the m5 be available? Still can't even build it on the website.
Old 11-25-2011 | 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Jon2007E63P30
100milliseconds = 0.1 seconds
0.01 seconds = 10milliseconds, I don't think so. F1 cars are 50milliseconds


http://www.insideline.com/ferrari/59...iorano-f1.html
Yeah I must have been smoking CRACK when I posted that, good catch

1 second = 1000 milliseconds
.1 second = 100 milliseconds
.01 second = 10 milliseconds

Old 11-26-2011 | 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Shellbmb
When will the m5 be available? Still can't even build it on the website.
M5 will be available April 2012.
Old 05-21-2012 | 12:02 PM
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ok i have this merc gearbox in my cls. it's tricky. in S+ it's very fast up shift and pretty fast downshift.

here's where it lacks; in m mode the car will indicate an upshift request when approaching redline. it will indicate for 1 second then go away and come back the next second. by the 2nd, second you're already too late and when you request for an upshift the car protects itself by pulling timing and not upshifting..

so if you want fast m upshifts go select the paddle once you see the red before it goes away
Old 05-21-2012 | 02:46 PM
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FF. W212 E63 M156 non-pano 18" P2 ParkT NightV (gone but will be missed).
Never really had to use the M since, as you had mentioned, the S+ is fast enough already. That's why a HUD would really be useful so you can see such info while keeping your eyes on the road.
Old 05-21-2012 | 04:45 PM
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E63 AMG, E60 M5
AMG's have come a a long way to catch up to the M division, and it' seems they are almost there.
Old 05-23-2012 | 09:24 PM
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09 c63 blk/blk H&R Springs & 08 e 63 blk/blk
allow me to explain. what the reviewers are failing to adequately indicate is the following: bmw boxes like smg and dct, allow for an instant double or triple or quadruple downshift when tapped repetitively. when performed by the driver, the engine will blip the throttle instantaneously inot the desired gear.

The box in the AMGs down blip as well and shift up just as fast, alas, what slows down the dynamics of quick driving is the inability to double tap or triple tap down...in other words you down shift...wait for gear...down shift wait for gear...one by one...

Another nuisance dynamically speakin is that on the merc i cant use the gear shifter in the center console. this makes M mode a tad less convenient becasue i either have to reach around the wheel or wait till i have straightened it out to up shift (or downshift)...

But again, these are minor minor issues. You have to learn to regulate you foot position in accordance to the desired throttle in each mode. deeper for C mode and more delicate for sport +.

In conclusion, once AMG brings out their own DCT, a killer blow will have been delivered to M. The final dagger through the heart so to speak. M got off lucky this last and final round of the war

Last edited by g.smiley; 05-23-2012 at 09:26 PM.
Old 05-23-2012 | 10:20 PM
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i drive them all, fast and hard
Final round???
BMW won't come back with something better?

In almost all cases the newer vehicle here rated higher than the previous

Mb won't win any comparisons in the eyes of the magazines
Old 05-24-2012 | 02:47 PM
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FF. W212 E63 M156 non-pano 18" P2 ParkT NightV (gone but will be missed).
Originally Posted by g.smiley
Another nuisance dynamically speakin is that on the merc i cant use the gear shifter in the center console. this makes M mode a tad less convenient becasue i either have to reach around the wheel or wait till i have straightened it out to up shift (or downshift)...
That's the reason Ferrari and Pagani choose to mount the paddles to the steering column rather than the wheel, so the up and down are always in the same position.
Old 05-26-2012 | 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by g.smiley
allow me to explain. what the reviewers are failing to adequately indicate is the following: bmw boxes like smg and dct, allow for an instant double or triple or quadruple downshift when tapped repetitively. when performed by the driver, the engine will blip the throttle instantaneously inot the desired gear.

The box in the AMGs down blip as well and shift up just as fast, alas, what slows down the dynamics of quick driving is the inability to double tap or triple tap down...in other words you down shift...wait for gear...down shift wait for gear...one by one...

Another nuisance dynamically speakin is that on the merc i cant use the gear shifter in the center console. this makes M mode a tad less convenient becasue i either have to reach around the wheel or wait till i have straightened it out to up shift (or downshift)...

But again, these are minor minor issues. You have to learn to regulate you foot position in accordance to the desired throttle in each mode. deeper for C mode and more delicate for sport +.

In conclusion, once AMG brings out their own DCT, a killer blow will have been delivered to M. The final dagger through the heart so to speak. M got off lucky this last and final round of the war
I agree that AMG needs to release a double clutch in all of their product lines and not just the SLS. And every other car manufacturer is already on their 2nd generation double clutch transmissions.


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