Minimization

Hello,

My 2006 (E60) M5 Sedan (SMG III) is getting up there so I am hoping to retire it from daily driver status by the end of the year.

I want something a bit different to compliment it. The big V8 with twin turbos would be a change of pace.

I'd really love a W212 E63 AMG Wagon V8 BiTurbo with as many options as possible; prices are finally getting within range for me on slightly used cars. Though I may just go with the Sedan if it has the right options and is at a good price, etc.

Any opinions on 2012-13 versus 2014-16? I like the look of either and I know AWD has its advantages and disadvantages.

What was added with the facelift? As far as I can tell it was optional B&O Sound, standard LED headlights, and standard 4Matic. Any different "driver's aids"?

I'd really like a car with Driver's ***. Pack., Carbon Ceramic Brakes, and the AMG Performance Package or AMG-S.

Also, about tunes; is the power increase as big as advertised? For instance, Renntech has a $3,500 ECU tune that puts out 669 hp and 734 lb ft. Motortrend and K&N estimated it being stock at 676 hp and 636 lb ft. Does Renntech basically boost the area under the curve early in the rev. range?

I also would want to put winter tires on the stock 19" wheels. Will 20" AMG wheels from an S63, etc., fit on these cars? I really don't feel like spending $10k on new 20" wheels.

Third row/rear-facing jump seat conversion from E350 Wagon- I saw a couple of guys have done this. Pretty cool.

Thanks for any tips!

gaspam

as far as tunes, not sure where motortrend or KN said power is 676 hp (crank)?

but what has been seen on the dyno to the wheel is around 490whp for pre-facelift models, and for facelift models 520 whp (540 whp for S model) and around 600 whp for tune (renntech, ams, weistec, etc).... so peak WHP pickup for about 80whp ( 60whp for S models) and a lot more power pickup under the curve

if you search on benz boost you will find a good article on these dyno numbers for prefacelift vs facelift stock dynos vs s model dyno vs tuned dynos

joseyu

Got a set of almost new Blizzak LM-32 in 255/35R19 for sale if you are interested.

2012 CCB E63

Welcome, I am new myself, and I was in the exact same spot (except I had an escalade vs your M5) in January. I know one additional facelift option was the 360* camera that is not available on the 12-13 years.
I ended up with a 2012 e63 sedan (couldnt find a reasonably priced CPO wagon) with Carbon brakes, carbon, etc.
Good luck with your search!

Minimization

Thank you for the information! I'll look into the various wheel power measurements seen out there. So I take it:

E63 V8 BiTurbo
2012-2013 AMG 518 hp, 516 lb ft
2012-2013 AMG Performance Package 550 hp, 590 lb ft
2014-2016 AMG 550 hp, 531 lb ft
2014-2016 AMG-S 577 hp, 590 lb ft

S63 V8 BiTurbo
2014+ AMG 577 hp, 664 lb ft (the "Gold Standard" for OEM 5.5T MB AMG)

So, basically the Renntech full tune would be an "equalizer", surpassing peak torque and power, and area under the curve, on any of these four situations, including beating the S63 AMG number as well? I mean the underrated reported numbers, not the actual, suspected, higher numbers.

Motortrend/K&N Engineering back-calculated those figures to the crank assuming a 20% drivetrain frictional loss from AWD coupled to the 7 speed automatic. Since it has wet clutch pack instead of a torque converter, 18-19% may be more accurate (slightly more efficient).


http://www.motortrend.com/news/2014-...ck-comparison/

Minimization

Thanks man! not now, but perhaps once i get the second car in. Do any of you guys run staggered sizes (OEM) like I do on my M5 (Sottozeros)?

Minimization

Thank you! That's a great car by the way.

May I ask how many miles were on it and about what you paid?

I recently found a loaded 2012 Sedan (PP, Ceramics, DAS, etc.), good colors, < 40k mi on it for $56k. That's 55% off MSRP.

gaspam

driveline loss on these cars are around 15%... days of 20-25% for awd are long gone

also the hp numbers your posted are HP at the crank.. the numbers i previously posted are at the wheels on a dyno...

as for the numbers should be something like this for peak gains from stock to tuned:

E63 V8 BiTurbo
2012-2013 AMG 518 hp ----> 490 whp---> 600 whp tuned = 110 whp gain
2012-2013 AMG PP 550 hp---> 520 whp--> 600 whp tuned = 80 whp gain
2014-2016 AMG 550 hp------> 520 whp--> 600 whp tuned = 80 whp gain
2014-2016 AMG-S 577 hp---> 540 whp---> 600 whp tuned = 60 whp gain

Minimization

Thank you!

Yes I knew those were wheel versus crank figures.

If the AWD E63 is 15%, is the RWD E63 then 10%? The @ wheels figure settles everything, but I'm just curious.

I'm curious how such improvements were made over the years. Any insights?

2012 CCB E63

Thanks, I am loving it.
Bought it with 46,000 miles and paid $60k otd with tax and 2 year extended (3 year total) CPO warranty.

gaspam

im not sure the improvement in AWD efficiency has led to changes in rwd powertrain efficiency... i think it more of the case that awd is less inefficient as it used to be and is catching up to rwd driveline loss efficiency

PeterUbers

When they (motortrend) estimated 20% drivetrain loss, in this video, they concluded the crank power could be about 676hp based on their dyno result

gaspam

ah ok so they basically backed into that number after getting 540 whp on the superflo dyno (at the 5.14 mark of vid) .... which is the exact whp number i said e63 s-amgs dyno at

so they just took the WHP and initially used a old awd driveline loss factor of 20% to come up with estimated CHP of 676, but at 6.08 mark of vid the MT guys says he spoke with his technical director and he said modern awd cars are more like 15% and should equate to about 635 chp, which sounds about right on advertised 577 chp, given how much the germans underestimate power consistantly

Minimization

Nice!

I didn't notice the 540 hp figure by MT since I didn't rewatch this, but sounds like reproduceable results to me.

I'm going to post a link about the nuances of driveline losses.

PeterUbers

And as you all know, that was one dyno, on one day with that day's temp and that location's elevation.

Perhaps it would be lower on a different day with a different e63S and at a different location

Still likely they are underestimating the power

Have you all seen dynos of stock hellcats!!??? They are underrated too lol... Big time

kponti

Ever since the new SAE way of rating engine output was implemented, most cars are now called "underrated"
Every single and I mean EVERY single forced induced car I have seen or read about being dynoed has been "underrated" from factory